The Verdict Is In: Sasquatch Exists, Oil Filters Spin Off, And I'm

[Alex-Corsa]

If it was causing airplanes to crash, someone would do the work to figure out why it occassionally happens, but it's just Guzzis, so we're left to speculate.

 

I ain't gonna mention what it is, to prevent starting another riot, but there's a simple device that some use as a mechaincal stop to prevent them loosening. Look back at previous threads on the subject if you are interested.

 

How about this V sump that has the oil filter at external point , isn't it any better solution , considering this problem?

I know that there is a version for smaler type sumps like the carb1100 or quotas and older lemans'

Is there a version that can be fitted in longer oil- sumps like the V11's or the sports1100, if so, would there be any mods that have to be done?

[Guest ratchethack]

Is it possible that once is became a little loose, the crank contacted the filter, helping to spin it off the threads ???

After seeing y'er photo's, I was askin' meself the same thing. Since the Quota's got the filter upside-down from wot I'm used to, I can't picture it relative to the position of the crank throws. Can you tell in wot direction the crank would tend to contact the filter (in which tangent -- spin on or spin off) by looking at its orientation in the sump? It'd be helpful to know the clearance between the fully seated filter bottom and the crank throws.

[Greg Field]

If the crank were whacking the front of the filter, it would tend to tighten it. If it were whacking the rear of the filter, it would tend to loosen it. That is not the problem. There's plenty of roached motors on which crank and filter never met.

[Guest ratchethack]

If the crank were whacking the front of the filter, it would tend to tighten it. If it were whacking the rear of the filter, it would tend to loosen it. That is not the problem. There's plenty of roached motors on which crank and filter never met.

Yes, of course damage would've begun long before the crank hit the filter in the case of the Quota. But I've got to think that if the filter got loose (as it clearly did here) and ever got into a certain position, that it might well decide to get wadded up and wedged in there, then come thru the side o' the case. Just another thing to think about here.

 

Greg, I'd be interested in your take on how he seems to've gone 20 minutes without oil pressure before she seized up. Is there something about the Quota's oil circuit that would allow it to draw unfiltered oil from the sump with the filter off it's seat??

[Greg Field]

Yes, of course damage would've begun long before the crank hit the filter in the case of the Quota. But I've got to think that if the filter got loose (as it clearly did here) and ever got into a certain position, that it might well decide to get wadded up and wedged in there, then come thru the side o' the case. Just another thing to think about here.

 

Greg, I'd be interested in your take on how he seems to've gone 20 minutes without oil pressure before she seized up. Is there something about the Quota's oil circuit that would allow it to draw unfiltered oil from the sump with the filter off it's seat??

 

I won't speculate except that Guzzi motors're tough. It has the same oil curcuit as all the Cali Guzzis. Even after all that, all it might need is rod shells.

[rocker59]

If it was causing airplanes to crash, someone would do the work to figure out why it occassionally happens, but it's just Guzzis, so we're left to speculate.

 

I ain't gonna mention what it is, to prevent starting another riot, but there's a simple device that some use as a mechaincal stop to prevent them loosening. Look back at previous threads on the subject if you are interested.

 

 

FWIW, I'll be implementing the "Field expedient oil filter retention device" on my other Guzzis...

 

 

(How's that for a double entendre' ???)

 

 

 

 

 

I won't speculate except that Guzzi motors're tough. It has the same oil curcuit as all the Cali Guzzis. Even after all that, all it might need is rod shells.

 

and I was running 15w/50 Mobil 1 gold cap...

[dlaing]

Is there something about the Quota's oil circuit that would allow it to draw unfiltered oil from the sump with the filter off it's seat??

My understanding oil path goes something like:

resevoir

screen

pump

filter

engine

So, the pump does not suck oil out of the filter, it pushes it through the filter.

If the filter came loose the pumped oil would follow the path of least resistance.

If the filter was only slightly loose, the oil pressure at the pressure sensor would somewhat gradually lessen as the filter loosened.

There would be some un-easily knowable period of time where the engine was getting some pressure while the light was glowing.

This would probably be the same for the bikes with our sump.

There might be VERY slight increase in pressure due to the submersion of the leaking filter...but I doubt the difference would be measurably consequential.

[motoguzznix]

I never heard of a loose oil filter on older Tonti Guzzis with the smaller filter unit!!

 

This seems in fact to be a problem of the newer, bigger filters used since the 90s.

 

My opinion about the the reason for the damages:

 

1st

The old filter thread was finer (more threads per inch), so more secure not to unsrew

 

2nd

The old oil pans were machined at the filter gasket surface. The new ones are as cast and the oil might seep through the gasket and this loosens the tight fit

 

3rd

Only for V11/Centauros: The access to the filter through the plug hole is bad - it can only be tightened by a special tool. A lot of filters came loose because of insufficient tightening.

 

The combination of the above mentioned might lead to a disaster in some circumstances . California/Quota owners could swap to the older oil pan with filter. All the V11/Centauro drivers should tighten their filters as good as possible.

[Mike Stewart]

Having been a tech for GM over the last 29 years and seeing alot of weird things. I suspect the oil filter was not tight enough from the get go. I tend to overtighten oil filters and I have never, never been accused of leaving one loose. Many things can account for the filter coming loose after 3000 miles. Humm, heat could of hardened the oil filter seal alowing the filter to loose it's torque, or even the engines vibrations could of led to the oil filter dancing loose. I still use the factory filter and I have never had this happen on any of my bikes. Maybe it is because I change my oil at the 3000 mile mark

 

Just my thoughts,

Mike

[Ryland3210]

John was HOT on the trail of wot appeared to be potentially significant early intelligence, which (as I'd suggested at the link below), should it lead to compelling evidence, would no doubt eventually earn him a place of highest honor in the Guzzi Hall of Solutions to Very Serious, yet Admittedly Esoteric Problems:

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...=9670&st=0#

 

Wot say you, John? Any further developments from the world of Shore A scale on the durometer? In light of Rocker's recent discovery, might this add fuel to the fire?

 

Yes, this is more evidence to support my previous analysis: Tightening using the turns method is more reliable than tightening to a subjective "feel", or "good and tight". I have found that it requires considerably more torque than indicated on the UFI filter can to achieve this. This is not problem on my Cafe Sport, since there are filter wrenches readily available in the aftermarket. Well worth the money in time savings and being able to easily tighten the filter, even through the access port.

 

In my most recent oil changes, I found that both UFI and aftermarket filter gaskets take a compression set. I've been paying attention to my automobile filters as well since this problem got my attention. The compression set also occurred on my Jetta. I'm sure the higher the temperature, the more this happens, but the fact it happened on the Jetta (which never overheated) means it isn't just the Guzzi. All the more reason to use the turns method so one knows exactly how much the gasket is compressed.

 

In a later thread the thread pitch is mentioned as a factor. I agree that the coarser the pitch, the more likely a fastener is to loosen, including these filters. All one has to do to intuitively verify this is to consider the extremes: zero pitch would never loosen, infinite pitch would not hold.

 

Finally, some possibly unrelated information: imported "neoprene" roof vent flashings used on house construction in our neighborhood have begun failing after 6-8 years. In contrast, similar flashings installed in the 70's are still OK. I suspect that the more recent imported ones do not have the same composition, resulting in shorter life. It raises the question, is it possible the gaskets on some filters, supposedly of the same composition, harden, take a compression set, and loosen more than others? This reminds me of the so called, "high strength" screws imported from Taiwan some years back, failing in the field. By now, they may have learned how to make them as strong as the Western equivalent. I'm afraid we may suffer from having to live through many similar re-learning trial and error situations until the Chinese and Indian sources learn the same the lessons the West did 30-50 years ago.

 

However, it's not only them that has something to learn. I rented a new Harley for the fun of it for a couple of days while visiting family in Phoenix. Day one, the two screws holding the front caliper loosened, apparently during a couple of hours of steady riding at highway speed. One fell out completely at Tombstone. Thank goodness I was just turning a corner as I heard the rattle. No lock washers or Loctite. Luckily, I had taken along vicegrips and basic tools, just in case. It's one of my good habits. I retraced my path and found the screw. I found the two screws holding the other caliper loose as well.

 

Day two, the shift actuating lever disconnected itself. The ball and socket joint had simply worn out. I got that back together with some nylon string. I checked around some more, and found the saddlebags were about to fall off because they were held on with two 1/4-20 screws apiece, but once again, no lockwashers or loctite. On the way back, the screw holding the tank speedo cover loosened up. Same deal. Fortunately, right in front of my eyes. I was happy to make it back without further incident.

 

Sorry for digressing-couldn't resist venting on poor engineering and quality control. I'm glad to see the use of good quality locking devices and thread locking compound on my Guzzi.

[Guest Mattress]

 

In my most recent oil changes, I found that both UFI and aftermarket filter gaskets take a compression set. I've been paying attention to my automobile filters as well since this problem got my attention. The compression set also occurred on my Jetta. I'm sure the higher the temperature, the more this happens, but the fact it happened on the Jetta (which never overheated) means it isn't just the Guzzi. All the more reason to use the turns method so one knows exactly how much the gasket is compressed.

 

 

Finally, some possibly unrelated information: imported "neoprene" roof vent flashings used on house construction in our neighborhood have begun failing after 6-8 years.

 

However, it's not only them that has something to learn. I rented a new Harley for the fun of it for a couple of days while visiting family in Phoenix.

 

Cost reduction, cost reductions, cost reductions.............its a disease. I wouldn't doubt that the oil filter gasket material might have changed to a cheaper material, or to a supplier overseas who may not make the same material at a quality level.

 

Uuhh, that didn't sound like such a "for the fun of it" experience. Unbelievable. Doesn't HD do any design validation?

[badmotogoozer]

Sorry for digressing-couldn't resist venting on poor engineering and quality control. I'm glad to see the use of good quality locking devices and thread locking compound on my Guzzi.

 

MG put thread lock on your bike????? Bastards never put any on mine... or grease for that matter!

 

Your HD story is nearly identical to my V11 story! I guess it really is the Italian Harley.

 

Rj

[docc]

Ryland, how many turns again to seat the UFI filter?

[Ryland3210]

Ryland, how many turns again to seat the UFI filter?

 

I'm away from home as I write this, and don't have my notes here. It's risky going by memory in this case, but my recollection is that I tightened the last one about 1 turn plus 45 degrees. Depending on the thickness of the gasket, the filter can may bottom out against the block before you get that far. If you feel a sudden step function increase in torque caused by that, stop tightening any farther.

 

If you can't find the thread where I give the details by the time I get home later this week, I should be able to let you know.

[docc]

the procedure really needs to go in the FAQ since this has cropped up more than a couple times . . .