Alternative to Oil Filter Hose Clamp

[twhitaker]

Yaledriver posted this solution on the Wildguzzi forum and he tried to post it here.

 

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=10344.0

[Guest ratchethack]

An interesting solution if you don't mind taking the risk of loose change and silicone sealant in y'er sump.

 

Spending half a day fabricating a measuring fixture seems a rather long way round to the destination.

 

If I were interested in getting a measurement between the manhole cover and filter can, I'd put a lump of modeling clay (plasticene) betwixt the twain, thread the cover on, take 'er off, and have an accurate measurement in about half a minute.

 

BAA, TJM & YMMV

[Ryland3210]

An interesting solution if you don't mind taking the risk of loose change and silicone sealant in y'er sump.

 

Hmmm. At 75 psi, the force on the filter is about 370 pounds. I'm sure the end of the can bulges. If the filter transfers this force to the cover, I wonder how much it or the sump flexes. I assume that hasn't happened.

 

I like the safety wire on the cover. A thread diameter that large would ordinarily tolerate enormous tightening torque. No matter how tight I feel comfortable with tightening it, I worry about that letting go. However, I would prefer a connection near the perimeter of the cover, and tangential to it to preload it with tightening torque.

 

Has anyone a suggestion or picture on a convenient way to doing so?

[dlaing]

Hmmm. At 75 psi, the force on the filter is about 370 pounds. I'm sure the end of the can bulges. If the filter transfers this force to the cover, I wonder how much it or the sump flexes. I assume that hasn't happened.

 

I like the safety wire on the cover. A thread diameter that large would ordinarily tolerate enormous tightening torque. No matter how tight I feel comfortable with tightening it, I worry about that letting go. However, I would prefer a connection near the perimeter of the cover, and tangential to it to preload it with tightening torque.

 

Has anyone a suggestion or picture on a convenient way to doing so?

I was thinking drilling a hole in the sump cover, tangential to the filter, then carriage bolting some rubber of the proper spacing between cover and filter.

The nut on the outside could be safety wired through the bolt and attached to whatever, probably to the bolts that hold on the oil tray.

The rubber has a few advantages over a metal shim:

Flexible, so when the filter expands from the 370 pounds of force, the access cover might not blow.

Flexible, to compensate for slight variations in the gap between cover and flter.

...but just an idea. I don't have the confidence to drill a hole in the cover without owning a spare.

Also, I have not determined how strong the cover is. If it was thick billet, a bolt could be tapped into the cover that could torque up lightly, to the tangential bottom perimeter of the filter.

Anyone feel like making such a thing and marketing it to the lucrative huge guzzi market?

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Ok, Ok you guys are just kidding right? Ha ha ha, this was a fun spoof! Micro analysis of the compression of rubber, bulging filters, trap doors made useless by bodged hose clamps. This is a hoot!

We should be more sensitive however, the paranoids may be offended by all this humor at their expense

[Greg Field]

They weren't kidding.

[belfastguzzi]

Ok, Ok you guys are just kidding right? Ha ha ha, this was a fun spoof! Micro analysis of the compression of rubber, bulging filters, trap doors made useless by bodged hose clamps. This is a hoot!

We should be more sensitive however, the paranoids may be offended by all this humor at their expense

Yeah, some of that stuff is much too dangerous, but mostly, it's not in tune with the Guzzi aesthetic. I'm working on a device to put the soul back into the filter spin-off issue.

What with phonographs, radiograms and the like being commonly regarded as old-hat technology, there is a good supply of discarded gramophone pick-ups available, most of 'em in the back room of Moto Guzzi enthusiasts. Handy – because the phono pickup is an excellent transverse motion detector.

 

So, select a pickup or transducer that has a good long, hefty needle, point or stylus. Proceed to mount the pickup inside the sump so that the 'needle' rests against the surface of the filter case. Secure it in place with thread and shellac. The wires from the pickup can be fed through an indentation in the sump gasket. I prefer to use a sandwich of two gaskets together. It then only requires the miracle of valve amplification and a handlebar-mounted loudspeaker to complete the device. Before putting on a new oil filter, inscribe its case with grooves or tracks that the pickup needle will follow. Then, when the filter goes into spin mode, warning notification (hopefully musical) will be instantly relayed to the gentleman-guzzier.

 

Part 2 will explain how, with the aid of a reverse megaphone, a piece of paper and a stout needle, a musical ditty or a message, such as, Warning! Warning!, can be faithfully reproduced in the filter grooves.

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .the paranoids may be offended by all this humor at their expense

They weren't kidding.

Hm. I take no offense, don't see any paranoia here -- NOR am I kidding.

 

I reckon I missed the humorous part entirely.

 

However, I HAVE seen more photo's of torched cranks and well-enough documented evidence of loose filters than I'd like to've seen lately.

 

Are you guys paranoid about the possibility of your house burning down? I hope not. I'm not in the slightest myself. I reckon most of us don't give it a thought beyond taking simple common sense precautions. But I'll bet you've got insurance against the possibility, however infinitely remote the actuarial tables say it might be. Perhaps you even have a few smoke alarms -- maybe a fire extinguisher or two, same as I do. Does that add up to paranoia?

 

Is running an oil pressure gauge also paranoia? I've never thought so, and it might not be a bad idea, eh Greg?

 

But in my case, now that I've got a Roper plate installed for probably less material cost than an oil pressure gauge and fittings, the justification for monitoring oil pressure has decreased considerably. Seems to me the former eliminates a cause, while the latter's a way to monitor the symptom. As far as insurance goes, the former seemed to make more sense. Some might say having both is somewhat redundant coverage? YMMV.

 

Somehow I doubt if I'm the only one who's grateful for all the recent attention and focus on this. Now that we've been through two separate kinds of oil starvation excursions and explored the underlying principles in some detail, with expenditures of time and effort well worth balancing against the level o' risk, IMHO -- I b'lieve I'll spend even less time thinking about it from now on than I spend thinking about my house burning down. But that's just me.

 

Carry on!

 

Cdr. Hatchracket, Oil Pressure Insurance Commissioner

[dlaing]

Ok, Ok you guys are just kidding right? Ha ha ha, this was a fun spoof! Micro analysis of the compression of rubber, bulging filters, trap doors made useless by bodged hose clamps. This is a hoot!

We should be more sensitive however, the paranoids may be offended by all this humor at their expense

I suppose the guys hanging out barbershop who might have thought up the invention of seat belt probably received plenty of rolled eyes.

I can here it now:

Bob

"that was so sad about the deaths of the Madison and Eleanor Jefferson in that coach accident at the North crossroad. I hear their three orphaned children are going to be raised by Eleanor's sister Agatha. I never thought Agatha even had a kind thought in her head, but sure enough she volunteered to take them in."

Luigi:

"Poor kids. If only somebody built those coachs with safety in mind."

Thomas:

"Safe coaches!?! You must be joking. How often do people crash coaches? I have never crashed mine. I heard Madison was driving that coach drunk and he always did drive too fast "

Luigi:

"Willllll, maybe if they had ropes strapped around waists they would not have gone flying off into the rocks "

Thomas:

"Ropes strapped around their waists!!???!!! If they are that drunk they should sleep it off!!!"

Luigi never got the patent for the seat belt, but somebody else probably did, and countless lives have been saved ever since.

[Ryland3210]

Hmmm. At 75 psi, the force on the filter is about 370 pounds. I'm sure the end of the can bulges. If the filter transfers this force to the cover, I wonder how much it or the sump flexes. I assume that hasn't happened.

 

I like the safety wire on the cover. A thread diameter that large would ordinarily tolerate enormous tightening torque. No matter how tight I feel comfortable with tightening it, I worry about that letting go. However, I would prefer a connection near the perimeter of the cover, and tangential to it to preload it with tightening torque.

 

Has anyone a suggestion or picture on a convenient way to doing so?

 

 

By pointing out the 370 pound force and bulging filter issues, I was trying to show how problematic attempting to support the filter can is in this manner. I guess I was too subtle.

 

I am serious about safety wiring the sump cover to prevent it unloosening, however. There's no locking device, and using Loctite, even the "removable" grade on such a large diameter thread would present a real challenge in getting it loose for the next oil change. I'd rather find a simple way to safety wire it, than deal with removing the sump to change the filter.

[dlaing]

By pointing out the 370 pound force and bulging filter issues, I was trying to show how problematic attempting to support the filter can is in this manner. I guess I was too subtle.

Why do you think you were too subtle?

[Guest Gary Cheek]

I guess you didn't think it was funny that I find humor in the situation? Too bad.

Ratchet, I was referring to the extreme METHODS taken to avoid the filter loosening.

While I realize any house COULD burn down. I have not taken every flammable object from the house, watered down the matches, turned off the gas,electricity etc. Rather my house is properly wired with good materials, and we take the regular, rational precautions. We do not smoke, therefore we don't smoke in bed, a major cause of house fires. I don't use UFI and I tighten filters properly. That eliminates all the percentages for worry that would concern me. Filter unscrewing has far fewer causes than housefires. it seems some folks are spending more time preventing filter unscrewing than housefires. That is downright wierd!

In the case of the oil filter I USE A GOOD FILTER AND TIGHTEN IT PROPERLY. I should worry more about my concrete drive burning more than my filter unscrewing itself.

 

 

 

Oil pressure gauges? I have used them since my first motorcycle in the late 1960s and do not consider them paranoia. They are a useful tool to visually keep track of an engine. Oil pressure gauges are as sensible as smoke detectors. The people who make smoke detectors design them to be intrinsically safe. They wouldn't want the smoke detector to have any chance of STARTING a fire. I wouldn't want the "fix" for poorly tightened filters to actually CAUSE engine damage .

 

Some of he extremes I am seeing are indeed quite humorous.The micro analysis of square O-rings down to the 1/1000th of an inch, with plastic calipers and the micro radians of turn to tighten, of course measuring the torque as well! Yep Guzzis are special!

Nope, the seat belt analogy doesn't hold water. Once again there are far more, complex reasons for car crashes than oil filters unscrewing. Oil filter unscrewing is easily prevented, without adding other potential problems. Feel free to laugh at me if you ever hear of my filter unscrewing "itself". (You won't, it won't) In the meantime :

[Ryland3210]

Why do you think you were too subtle?

 

Just reacting to Gary Cheek's including my "bulging filters" among comments by those whom he thought were advocating supporting the filter with the cover, as I interpreted his comment. I wanted to make it clear where I stood. If it was already clear, that's fine.

[Ryland3210]

Some of he extremes I am seeing are indeed quite humorous.The micro analysis of square O-rings down to the 1/1000th of an inch, with plastic calipers and the micro radians of turn to tighten, of course measuring the torque as well! Yep Guzzis are special!

Nope, the seat belt analogy doesn't hold water. Once again there are far more, complex reasons for car crashes than oil filters unscrewing. Oil filter unscrewing is easily prevented, without adding other potential problems. Feel free to laugh at me if you ever hear of my filter unscrewing "itself". (You won't, it won't) In the meantime :

 

I haven't checked other forums, I've been entertained and learned enough from this one to have concentrated on it. I've been wondering all along why someone hasn't questioned the measurements I have given to three decimals before, of neoprene and steel stampings and turns in this application. Perhaps these measurements have been criticized on other forae.

 

It was just easier for me to report the results of measurements and calculations, rather than bother with an error analysis to put tolerances on each, when in the end the conclusions based on the measurements have to do with permitting a wide variation in acceptable turns anyway.

 

In defense of the measurements, the variation around the circumference of the gasket and groove of all the filters I measured were remarkably consistent, typically + - 0.001, so reporting to three decimals was valid. Moreover, a few thousandths in groove and gasket dimensions IS significant.

 

Precise measurements and calculations showed that not all filters meet your "good" requirement, nor mine. I started out this adventure trying to understand how to prevent filter loosening problems. I sure wasn't going to make claims or recommendations without solid, objective analysis, and have no regrets about being meticulous about that.

 

Once again, I concur with you, as I've said before, in using good filters tightened properly. I hope my reports have provided useful, objective information as to which are the good filters, and how to tighten them. Along the way, I've take the time to describe my method of analysis to subject it to challenge, and to educate so others can do their own analysis and determine whether a filter is "good" and how to tighten them.

[dlaing]

 

Some of he extremes I am seeing are indeed quite humorous.The micro analysis of square O-rings down to the 1/1000th of an inch, with plastic calipers...

I guess I should rush out and spend more money on metal calipers, so I can be more anal

Nope, the seat belt analogy doesn't hold water. Once again there are far more, complex reasons for car crashes than oil filters unscrewing.

No, it does hold water.

At the the first thought of a seat belt you would be there mocking the inventor.

When cars were first invented a piece of rope would have saved far fewer lives that the seat belt air bag combination today, traffic was light and the risk was low if you drove responsibly, but sh^t st^ll happened.

Tightening a filter responsibly creates a low risk of the filter coming off, but sh^t still happens.

Many of the victims of the filter coming off have claimed to tighten it responsibly.

So, we can continue on our way thinking they are full of shit or we can determine that the problem lies elsewhere.

We have noted three potential causes other than mis-tightening:

1 filter is exposed to oil and heat from both sides of the gasket (purely speculative, and an external filter is the only solution for this completely unproven cause)

2 vibration (surely a factor, and not much we can do about it, but hey maybe the throttle bodies needed balancing on all the failed fllters )

3 Filter construction and design....finally something we can do something about.

So far the Purolator's design is the best in it's resistance to loosening as proven from our anal-ysis.

To me that is valuable information. I really don't want to have to use a hose clamp or a trap door bodge to be confident my filter won't come off.

I have alot more trust in Ryland saying use Purolator because after detailed analysis, it has been determined that the the gasket expands properly in the groove creating the near ideal progressive torque curve to ensure the proper torque after a given number of turns, than I do someone saying use Acme® filters because they cost more and therefore must be good and will never loosen.