Alternative to Oil Filter Hose Clamp

[Guest yaledriver]

Has any one considered that the oil pressure regulator on some bikes may occasionally stick? Someone noted that there was 300 psi in a filter, I hope not! I have seen psi surges over burden relief valves in aircraft engines what usually occurs is an exploded oil cooler or scavenge tank on dry sump engines.

Btw if there are enough people that would want to safety the sump covers on the perimeter I have a n easy fix and would be happy to start an freight only exchange program. I suppose someone could start a survey on that issue.

[dlaing]

Has any one considered that the oil pressure regulator on some bikes may occasionally stick? Someone noted that there was 300 psi in a filter, I hope not! I have seen psi surges over burden relief valves in aircraft engines what usually occurs is an exploded oil cooler or scavenge tank on dry sump engines.

Btw if there are enough people that would want to safety the sump covers on the perimeter I have a n easy fix and would be happy to start an freight only exchange program. I suppose someone could start a survey on that issue.

Interesting!

What would happen if it did stick shut?

 

I don't think anyone said 300psi. Ryland said, "At 75 psi, the force on the filter is about 370 pounds. "

Why does 75psi roughly equal 370lbs on the filter?

I can imagine if the filter were a balloon, it would take about 75psi to lift 370lbs. Is there math too back that up?

[Ryland3210]

Interesting!

What would happen if it did stick shut?

 

I don't think anyone said 300psi. Ryland said, "At 75 psi, the force on the filter is about 370 pounds. "

Why does 75psi roughly equal 370lbs on the filter?

I can imagine if the filter were a balloon, it would take about 75psi to lift 370lbs. Is there math too back that up?

 

75 psi is a number I've seen quoted when starting when the oil is cold. Filter diameters intended for the V11 of different brands have slightly different diameters. Basically, take the projected area of the filter's cross section and muliply it by the pressure. I used the approximate inside diameter of the gasket, 2.5 inches. That calculates out to 368 pounds. The force on the top of the filter can is actually more, if the diameter of the can is used. That comes out to 509 pounds in the case of the 2.98 inch diameter filters.

 

I quoted the lower number because if the can were supported by something, the side of the can would be expected to absorb some of the force. The numbers I quote are approximate, because there are other variables involved here, namely the deflection of filter and sump under forces this high. They are high enough to discourage me from trying any such scheme. That was my point.

[dlaing]

snip

Thanks!

That makes perfect sense.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

I guess I should rush out and spend more money on metal calipers, so I can be more anal

....Better the way it is Actually metal (stainless steel), digital calipers can be had for about $20 at Harbor freight.

.

 

...".At the the first thought of a seat belt you would be there mocking the inventor. "

 

No, once again tou have ASSumed far more too much. I have used seat belts faithfully since they first started appearing in automobiles. I fitted them in my 1931 Ford in 1965 as well as my 1940 Chevy later in 1967. A loose filter holds oil better than your ANALogy holds water

"Tightening a filter responsibly creates a low risk of the filter coming off, but sh^t still happens.

Many of the victims of the filter coming off have claimed to tighten it responsibly".

 

Right,define "responsibly". "Hand tight"? Are they using GREASE on the gasket? (a NO-NO!)or motor oil?

 

So, we can continue on our way thinking they are full of shit or we can determine that (IF) the problem lies elsewhere. (but have not)

 

 

..."So far the Purolator's design is the best in it's resistance to loosening as proven (??) "(Another laing-leap?)" from our anal-ysis." It is theorized to be less prone based only on conjecture. Until you PROVE the cause you haven't PROVEN the cure.

" I really don't want to have to use a hose clamp or a trap door bodge to be confident my filter won't come off."

 

And I won't.

 

I have alot more trust in Ryland saying use Purolator because after detailed analysis, it has been determined that the the gasket expands properly in the groove creating the near ideal progressive torque curve to ensure the proper torque after a given number of turns,(no problem with YOU basing YOUR decisoin solely on that.As good a reason as any . Especially if you really feel the other filters will indeed "unscrew" themselves. I prefer to include other factors in my own decision . The relative importance of each factor is weighed)) than I do someone saying use Acme® filters because they cost more and therefore must be good and will never loosen.

 

Who said to use "Acme" because "they cost more and therefore must be good and will never loosen"?

I must have missed that one. Please find the quote, if you can.

 

I have no reason to switch from what I am using, having not seen a single report of that particular make "unscrewing itself". Finding every one I have put on still quite secure at the next oil change. It is reasonably priced, well made, stays on and is readily available.

Other filters may indeed work as well.

[Ryland3210]

A few clarifications:

 

The reports I supplied were not merely conjecture, they consisted of measurement, and objective comparisons, concluding with plausible reasons why some filters might loosen more readily than others and/or might be easier to tighten properly than others.

 

That is not the same as saying filter A is definitely going to loosen or B is never going to loosen.

 

Only the UFI old and newer versions, Purolator, and Supertech were compared. I stand by the work I did. No measurements were made of other brands, so I have no comment on them one way or the other.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

A few clarifications:

 

The reports I supplied were not merely conjecture, they consisted of measurement, and objective comparisons, concluding with plausible reasons why some filters might loosen more readily than others and/or might be easier to tighten properly than others.

 

That is not the same as saying filter A is definitely going to loosen or B is never going to loosen.

 

Only the UFI old and newer versions, Purolator, and Supertech were compared. I stand by the work I did. No measurements were made of other brands, so I have no comment on them one way or the other.

 

Already clear here,

 

"..."So far the Purolator's design is the best in it's resistance to loosening as proven from our anal-ysis."

Sorry, I hope it doesn't hurt your feelings if , in my thinking the above falls far short of hard fact.

 

I understand your reports quite well. I was referring to the CONCLUSIONS asserted by Mr Laing as conjecture. Surely if you read my comments that should be understood.

Words like "might" loosen or "might" be easier to tighten are far from conclusive evidence that the "problem" has been cured. "Plausible"? Of course, conclusive or proven? Not really.

There are indeed other factors that were not considered. As well as other FILTERS as you have indeed noted. Many of the filters are made by the same company,(Champion) to different specs perhaps. Throw in manufacturing variances, tolerances, multiple sources for sub-parts and the variables will stack up. The winner today may be at the bottom next week or next box.

 

Your measurements and reporting of the recorded albiet limited production samples are not being questioned, by me. They are but a few numbers to consider when making choices. Along with other important factors.

[Ryland3210]

"..."So far the Purolator's design is the best in it's resistance to loosening as proven from our anal-ysis."

Sorry, I hope it doesn't hurt your feelings if , in my thinking the above falls far short of hard fact.

 

I understand your reports quite well. I was referring to the CONCLUSIONS Mr Laing asserted as merely conjecture. Surely if you read my comments that should be understood.

The "might" loosen or "might" be easier to tighten are far from conclusive evidence that the "problem" has been cured.There are indeed other factors that were not considered. As well as other FILTERS as you have commented. Many of the filters are made by the same company,(Champion) to different specs perhaps. Throw in manufacturing variances, tolerances, multiple sources for sub-parts and the variables stack up. The winner today may be at the bottom next week.

 

Your measurements and reporting of the recorded albiet limited production samples are not being questioned, by me. They are but a few numbers to consider when making choices. Along with other important factors.

 

My feelings haven't been hurt.

 

When you wrote: 'It is theorized to be less prone based only on conjecture", you can see how I would take that to mean my theories. Using "Your conclusions" instead of "It is theorized" would have been clearer.

 

I used "might" here exactly because one variable is how the filter is tightened. On the other hand, I have made recommendations in complete reports for the use of certain filters which make loosening highly improbable.

 

The use of written communications in the absence of verbal instant feedback, request for clarification, etc. easily leads to misunderstandings, even between two people on the same wavelength. I can be accused of being just as anal in wordsmithing as engineering. Sorry if that's annoying, but I think you'll agree it's entertaining as well.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

My feelings haven't been hurt.

 

When you wrote: 'It is theorized to be less prone based only on conjecture", you can see how I would take that to mean my theories. Using "Your conclusions" instead of "It is theorized" would have been clearer.

 

I used "might" here exactly because one variable is how the filter is tightened. On the other hand, I have made recommendations in complete reports for the use of certain filters which make loosening highly improbable.

 

The use of written communications in the absence of verbal instant feedback, request for clarification, etc. easily leads to misunderstandings, even between two people on the same wavelength. I can be accused of being just as anal in wordsmithing as engineering. Sorry if that's annoying, but I think you'll agree it's entertaining as well.

 

I figured the comments were in regard to the Laing post. Yes the conclusions are plausible and the numbers are real ..

No problem at all. Clarity counts The words are very important. Words like "proven"! .

[belfastguzzi]

My feelings haven't been hurt.

Sorry I can't say the same. No-one is going for the phonogram solution.

[Ryland3210]

Sorry I can't say the same. No-one is going for the phonogram solution.

 

 

It's just as well. Edison's descendants might claim prior art to your ingenious solution. Do you have the disc type grammaphone or the orginal cylinder type?

 

How about hooking the oil pressure light circuit to a relay which diverts the spark coil to the handlebar grips to get the rider's attention and kill the engine at the same time? That would prevent those foolish enough to run with insufficient oil from accelerating too hard as well.

[dlaing]

I figured the comments were in regard to the Laing post. Yes the conclusions are plausible and the numbers are real ..

No problem at all. Clarity counts The words are very important. Words like "proven"! .

Yes, I think it is an adequate proof. I have no doubt based on the technical research, mostly done by Ryland, that led me to say,

"So far the Purolator's design is the best in it's resistance to loosening as proven from our anal-ysis."

You don't seem to get my anal-o-jeezes, so I'll entertain you with another:

Take three polyhedrons:

We'll name the first UFO, a rhombic triacontahedron.

30 sided polyhedron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triacontahedron

The second STKid, an icosahedron

20 sided polyhedonist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icosahedron

And the last and proven most baddast, the infamous, PUOffLatorGator, a dodecahedron,

12 sided polyhedron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodecahedron

and

We place them on a lubed vibrating slope, perhaps on the slippery slopes of the money makers of a silicone endowed professional in the missionary position on a vibrating bed.

Assuming all obvious being roughly equal, ie. construction, mass and balance are roughly equal, some of us can except that it is proven that the dodecahedron is the best in design to stay up longer

Others won't accept it a proven until they turn the vibrating bed up to 10 on the richter scale

I volunteer EDIT myself for proving this through practice rather than theory

[Guest yaledriver]

Btw if there are enough people that would want to safety the sump covers on the perimeter I have a n easy fix and would be happy to start an freight only exchange program. I suppose someone could start a survey on that issue.

 

 

 

I'm interested in an easy way to safety the sump cover. If a safety wire, I would want it connected tangential to the cover so that the cover would be preloaded in the tightened direction. If you have a concept along those lines, I'd like to see it.

 

I'm making this message private only because the thread has drifted off course.

 

Thanks

 

 

--------------------

 

'03 Yamaha Venture, '04 Cafe Sport

Previously owned:

'65 Honda 90, '65? Honda 450, '69 Honda 450, Honda 160, Honda XL250, '65 Harley Police bike with sidecar, '70 Norton 750 Commando

[ Add to Buddies ]

 

Jump to folder: Inbox Sent Items I have been riveting on wings for aircraft for over 30 years.

What I thought about doing was placing a countersunk Flush rivet inside the sump cover. Then a safety wire tab on the bucktail, at outside perimeter.

It would be sealed with the same material as aircraft fuel tanks. If it can hold the gas in a 747 I believe it can keep 4qt. of oil in a Guzzi you could mark just where you want the tab and send it. I would be happy to oblige. p.s. check this out http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=10475.0

[Guest ratchethack]

Btw if there are enough people that would want to safety the sump covers on the perimeter I have a n easy fix and would be happy to start an freight only exchange program. I suppose someone could start a survey on that issue.

I'm interested in an easy way to safety the sump cover. If a safety wire, I would want it connected tangential to the cover so that the cover would be preloaded in the tightened direction. If you have a concept along those lines, I'd like to see it.

 

I'm making this message private only because the thread has drifted off course.

. . .

Jump to folder: Inbox Sent Items I have been riveting on wings for aircraft for over 30 years.

What I thought about doing was placing a countersunk Flush rivet inside the sump cover. Then a safety wire tab on the bucktail, at outside perimeter.

It would be sealed with the same material as aircraft fuel tanks. If it can hold the gas in a 747 I believe it can keep 4qt. of oil in a Guzzi you could mark just where you want the tab and send it. I would be happy to oblige. p.s. check this out http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=10475.0

Yaledriver, not sure how a private msg got on the board, but this could be interesting.

 

Have you noticed either yours or anyone else's cover spontaneously loosening?

 

I haven't noticed anything o' the sort by way of my own experience or posts of others?

[Guest yaledriver]

Yaledriver, not sure how a private msg got on the board, but this could be interesting.

 

Have you noticed either yours or anyone else's cover spontaneously loosening?

 

I haven't noticed anything o' the sort by way of my own experience or posts of others?

I took the liberty to post your message as I wanted to make my offer public to all. No I haven't heard of a cover coming loose but as an aircraft mechanic I safety everything even electrical fittings