Ignition advance for economy when crusing

[mike wilson]

Are you going somewhere local for dyno work?

[Guest Nigelstephens]

Are you going somewhere local for dyno work?

Yer, PC Performance Bikes near Morpeth. Don't know how good they are but the guy was willing for me to have a play with my settings!

[raz]

Yer, PC Performance Bikes near Morpeth. Don't know how good they are but the guy was willing for me to have a play with my settings!

One concern I've had with buying dyno time is that I have the feeling most dyno centers are completely focused on the products they sell and will lack interest and incentive to do a really good job with my My16M. Now again this is just a feeling I have without ever trying to talk to any of them, so hopefully I'm wrong. Obviously if get in touch with the right guys they should regard it as an interesting break in the never ending stream of japanese fours with PCIII and try to do a good job regardless if they think this is a toy or a superior solution.

[Guest Nigelstephens]

Back from the Dyno.

In summary...

I have not used a dyno before so I did not know what to expect nor what I could do in detail apart from max power curve.

 

I didn't realise that Paul(Dyno man) could not tell me the torque whilst tweaking. I was hoping to play around with timing at map points. The dyno he has (25i dynojet) and the software he uses limits his use, he says, to runs where the dyno samples over a period and produces a graph. The AFT is instantaneous so that was useful. I had hoped to play with ignition advance settings but this was not possible.

 

We produced a peak power curve that is similar to others I have seen. 76 peak HP and torque hitting about 60 ft/lb with the usual dip at 4500 rpm (stock balance box and air box).

 

I was able to do some runs at part load. This I was interested in to see if AFR measured was anything like the AFR that my lambda was indicating. My conclusion was that they did agree very closely.

 

Paul was helpful and had a lot of power commander experience and work with jap fours. He was interested and surprised at the MY16M features, especially the auto tune;). He did not do it down in any way. He was open to try anything (I was paying!) but lacked a broad knowledge that would have given me a bit more assistance and guidance in direction.

 

What I did learn was that it is very difficult and time consuming to tune a map manually. It is extremely difficult to hold a throttle position alone from low enough revs (to hit the throttle position early) to red line.

 

You can only really do a run, make a change and compare. Doing this for each row of the map will take ages and hours at the dyno.

 

I decided that the fuel map I have developed over the last year with closed loop operation and trying different settings was quite close. I think I have made the mistake of going to wide in my settings. My map uses AFR from 13.5 to 12.5. Mostly 13 is fine with perhaps 12.5 for outright power. I tended towards 12.5 for anyting above half throttle. The dyno showed that the torque/power was little affected by a change from 13 to 12.5. So I'm wasting fuel.

 

After I came away from the dyno I noticed my clutch cable loose. I stopped to adjust it. I took 3 turns on the adjuster at the handlebar. I can't remember adjusting so much before. I recon that the 2 hours at the dyno cost me 10000km in normal clutch wear. I thought he was a little heavy on the clutch and gears but I put that down to someone not familiar with a guzzi gearbox. It does take some practice after all. My poor bike:(

 

Previous to the dyno I data logged the MY16M over 2 hours ride. I found that the closed loop had not set areas of the map that are only briefly entered into. The auto optimizer works very quickly and has an immediate effect. However the auto update of the map when tuning requires that you are at exactly the middle of a grid cell and to hold it there (not literally but when driving be near to the middle of a grid cell long enough for this to happen) before it will update with any measured difference. Eventually the fuel map will be optimized. The areas in question were mostly at full throttle when you would appreciate full power. Mine was leaner than appreciated at 14.7 instead of say 12.5 AFR. I was able to make adjustments before the dyno run and the latter showed I was nearly spot on.

 

My final conclusion is.

I now know more now about dyno tuning and I don't think it is cost effective IMHO, nor conducive to long clutch life in my case. I believe that the closed loop mode is better and more accurate (assuming that I'm not going to spend more than 2 hours at the dyno).

 

Fortunately, with MY16M there is an alternative to dyno but it may take a while to get it perfectly right. Personally this is the crux. A standard map won't do. I have always been quick to become bored and I'm a tinkerer at heart. I'm going to spend a few days tweaking the map and if anyone wants a copy please PM.

[Skeeve]

Thanks to the MY16M ECU I have been very happy with my Sport i performance and smoothness.

However fuel consuption has never been that good at about 38-42 mpg.

...

These are the questions I have.

1. If I were to use 26 rather than the 31 would this be the better economy setting?

 

2. On a dyno does the difference in torque show up eaisily for a test such as this. That is, at constant roller speed changing the timing will effect torque. Is it easy to see the torque values change and to arrive at a more exact timing value.

 

3. On a dyno does for best economy, does one adjust for max torque and then back off on the timing advance slightly to reduce torque (say by 5%). Or how is it done correctly?

 

(from latest post):

 

I didn't realise that Paul(Dyno man) could not tell me the torque whilst tweaking. I was hoping to play around with timing at map points. The dyno he has (25i dynojet) and the software he uses limits his use, he says, to runs where the dyno samples over a period and produces a graph. The AFT is instantaneous so that was useful. I had hoped to play with ignition advance settings but this was not possible.

 

We produced a peak power curve that is similar to others I have seen. 76 peak HP and torque hitting about 60 ft/lb with the usual dip at 4500 rpm (stock balance box and air box).

...

 

What I did learn was that it is very difficult and time consuming to tune a map manually. It is extremely difficult to hold a throttle position alone from low enough revs (to hit the throttle position early) to red line.

 

You can only really do a run, make a change and compare. Doing this for each row of the map will take ages and hours at the dyno.

 

I decided that the fuel map I have developed over the last year with closed loop operation and trying different settings was quite close. I think I have made the mistake of going to wide in my settings. My map uses AFR from 13.5 to 12.5. Mostly 13 is fine with perhaps 12.5 for outright power. I tended towards 12.5 for anyting above half throttle. The dyno showed that the torque/power was little affected by a change from 13 to 12.5. So I'm wasting fuel.

...

Previous to the dyno I data logged the MY16M over 2 hours ride. I found that the closed loop had not set areas of the map that are only briefly entered into. The auto optimizer works very quickly and has an immediate effect. However the auto update of the map when tuning requires that you are at exactly the middle of a grid cell and to hold it there (not literally but when driving be near to the middle of a grid cell long enough for this to happen) before it will update with any measured difference. Eventually the fuel map will be optimized. The areas in question were mostly at full throttle when you would appreciate full power. Mine was leaner than appreciated at 14.7 instead of say 12.5 AFR. I was able to make adjustments before the dyno run and the latter showed I was nearly spot on.

 

My final conclusion is.

I now know more now about dyno tuning and I don't think it is cost effective IMHO, nor conducive to long clutch life in my case. I believe that the closed loop mode is better and more accurate (assuming that I'm not going to spend more than 2 hours at the dyno).

 

Fortunately, with MY16M there is an alternative to dyno but it may take a while to get it perfectly right. Personally this is the crux. A standard map won't do. I have always been quick to become bored and I'm a tinkerer at heart. I'm going to spend a few days tweaking the map and if anyone wants a copy please PM.

 

Wow, thanks for info; seems like you're truly dedicated in your search for precision tuning!

 

WRT the original timing question: my understanding is that the least advance that will lead to complete combustion before the exhaust opens is the desired amount; more advance requires higher grades of fuel to prevent pinging (but can produce more power.) Basically, there is a point where more advance leads to less power, and then rapidly to failure from knocking, etc. Too little advance can result in high exhaust gas temps, reduced power (from failing to capture the full f/x of expansion) & burnt exhaust valves.

 

The best economy setting for the advance is the one that makes the most power (or torque. Tuning for peak torque is tuning for peak efficiency, usually. And power is just a function of torque.)

 

From the sound of it, the My16M auto-optimizer-generated map would be a good starting point for anyone working on developing their own map for a PCIII, if the values for the individual grid cells translate at all well.

 

Best of luck w/ future tweaks!

[raz]

Thanks for all good info Nigel, it makes me want to go closed loop right now and just forget about dynos. I bought a spare downpipe from Reboot so I have nothing to lose except some money for the sensor.

 

I think Cliff uses the dyno the other way round. This is from http://www.jefferies-au.org/MyECU/Tuning.htm:

I found the easiest dyno method was to have the dyno operator set the speed of the engine to match one of the RPM points and then progressively work through the throttle points myself. Using the ECUController or the Optimiser, you adjust the mixture to get the desired air/fuel ratio then commit that setting to ECU memory, then move on to the next throttle setting. This process can be done in about 15-30 seconds per point if you rehearse the procedure. It helps to have three people, the dyno operator to control the speed, one to control the throttle and one to use the PC or the Optimiser. You can probably do two RPM columns before stopping for a cool down.

 

If you are running with an exhaust gas sensor and running My16M closed loop the process is even simpler. In this mode My16M maintains a correction factor that is applied to the map to produce the correct mixture for combustion. Rather than manually having to dial in the mixture, the Optimiser and ECUController can use this correction factor and simply apply it to the map. This will speed up the process as the settle time for closed loop is around 5 seconds.

I'm not sure if any dyno could be used that way. I'm pretty sure many dyno operators wont let you operate the bike on the dyno for insurance reasons or whatever.

[Guest Nigelstephens]

I did try what Cliff suggests in that I asked the dyno man to do a run (about 2 in total) at part throttle opening and to take readings. It was this that convinced me that the Lambda O2 probe very closely matched the Dyno gas readings for AFR.

 

However, I did not have enough time when I got around to this. I was still learning what could and could not be done.

 

If I go back I would be interested in trying different timing settings at part throttle and max throttle. Although I don’t want to waste my clutch plates. Instead….

 

Today….

I loaded an advanced map and a retarded map each by 2 degrees approx above 2300 rpm.

I tested each on the road. I found that the max power curve was reduced with advanced settings. Retard settings were no better but the normal settings were the best. The normal I refer to is the std that Cliff sends out with a new unit for the Sport.

 

I then loaded an ignition map that uses std settings at throttle position 6 (6 out or 15) and above but 5 and below uses +2 degrees more advance than std. My wish is to get greater economy. The performance feel is much the same as std but I think the engine is smoother when at cruising or just chugging along at 2300rpm in top gear. This might be too subjective so I will see what mpg the bike does on the next tank.

[raz]

The auto optimizer works very quickly and has an immediate effect. However the auto update of the map when tuning requires that you are at exactly the middle of a grid cell and to hold it there (not literally but when driving be near to the middle of a grid cell long enough for this to happen) before it will update with any measured difference. Eventually the fuel map will be optimized.

What version of the firmware are you running? Is it still true you have to manually store the optimized value to the map for each cell? I asked Cliff about that last summer and he seemed to think it is a bad idea to have it alter the map by itself. I can see his point but I still would like to have that option for selected sessions. Like on a dyno, or a dedicated 'optimizing ride' where I have the laptop and backup maps in the tank bag.

 

Can you log to a laptop and see the dynamic correction to each cell afterwards? If so I could write a Perl script to generate an updated map from that.

 

The firmware I got now (got it in Sep 2006) has a much better interface for the Optimizer than before, more intuitive and more consistent button assignments.

[raz]

Now look what you've done! I just placed an order for an LC-1

[Guest Nigelstephens]

I'm still using an old version of the firmware May 2006 as When I tried to update I had problems. It was working okay so I left it. Must try again though.

 

I have found alot of success with auto updating the map while riding. It is faily consistant (as long as the engine is warm). A technique I have used more recently is to datalog the output. I have a bluetooth dongle I plug into the serial connector of the my16m. Then a peice of software on my phone records the data to a file.

Then I dock the phone to the pc and to get the file. A laptop in the bag running hyperterminal is just as good.

 

The file has to be converted using a few steps. I used to use cliffs conversion but for some reason it is not working for me. I have an Excel speadsheet that rips out the extra in the data to get to CSV format. Then I import this into Access and run queries against it to get a crosstab grid that looks the same as the Map. I have one for AFR, Lambda correction, target. I can then copy and paste the correction grid into another excel spreadsheet that has some macros. With a click of a few buttons it will update the map automatically for the whole range.

 

I did this method (data logging) as there are a few areas to the fuel map that do not get updated during auto adjust mode. This is because you are never in the cells long enough for the my16m to get a stable reading at the grid crossover. So it never updates that cell. I found I was way off at WOT with AFT of 14.7 for a while!!. Corrected that now though.

[luhbo]

There's no need to torture your bike in an extraordinary way. This is from V11Sport.de:

 

 

 

Hubert

[Guest Nigelstephens]

Does anyone else find it painful watching a Guzzi go to readline? Although, he did it very quickly or didn't quite get there in the video. Mine had far more "presence".

[luhbo]

If you don't let her redline from time to time she will probably commit suicide one day. Remember my words

 

Besides that it makes no sense to keep an engine at speed on that sort of dyno. They can only evaluate the acceleration of the dyno's flywheel. As I know they don't have a serious brake implemented, also no serious cooling for the engine.

 

Hubert

[Cliff]

Does anyone else find it painful watching a Guzzi go to readline? Although, he did it very quickly or didn't quite get there in the video. Mine had far more "presence".

 

Try standing next to one trying to tweak with the Optimiser, exhausts glowing and feet getting very warm thru boots.

 

Thats why I have changed my dyno technique to something more conventional to what my site still says.