OH MY GOD

[todd haven]

There are very few fasteners I use a torque wrench on on a Guzzi. Rod bolts and head stud nuts are two that spring to mind. Pretty much everything else is done up by feel or woth a sodding great rattle gun

 

Pete

 

PS. If you want to avoid doing this sort of thing again buy yourself a set of 'T' bar allen wrenches and just do 6mm fasteners up 'Single Hand' tight, (Unless you have forearms like Popeye!). It's hard to strip 'em out with one hand. Use anti seize on the bolts too.

 

Pete, this is good advice, but I have watched a number of folks at

"tech day" type events at our shop.

They snug down the bolt. Then give it just a little more..

Then think about it a few seconds, wrinkle their brow, and give it one last "oomph".

Then we break out the Heli-coil set.

 

I don't mean to criticize or belittle anyone, but "feel" means an entirely different thing to a guy who

does it all day every day, for years, as opposed to the guy who drops his pan to change oil and

adjusts valves once year.

 

Best rule of thumb I have heard was to use a long T-handle, and only tighten it as much as you can between two fingers. (think Churchill, V for Victory, upside down.)

You can always go back and snug JUST a little more, but the finger thing will be very close for M6x1.0 into alum.

[DeBenGuzzi]

Pete, this is good advice, but I have watched a number of folks at

"tech day" type events at our shop.

They snug down the bolt. Then give it just a little more..

Then think about it a few seconds, wrinkle their brow, and give it one last "oomph".

Then we break out the Heli-coil set.

 

I don't mean to criticize or belittle anyone, but "feel" means an entirely different thing to a guy who

does it all day every day, for years, as opposed to the guy who drops his pan to change oil and

adjusts valves once year.

 

Best rule of thumb I have heard was to use a long T-handle, and only tighten it as much as you can between two fingers. (think Churchill, V for Victory, upside down.)

You can always go back and snug JUST a little more, but the finger thing will be very close for M6x1.0 into alum.

 

again something that could have been brought to my attention YESTERDAY but I'll go pick up the proper size T-hex wrench and keep that in mind from now on, I knew it doesn't take much to do that with a aluminum head and whatever kind of steel that bolt is, I think I have "The Feel" for how tight it needs to be now. learned the hard way but learned none the less.

 

I also "glued" in the bolt because its not likely to fall out I mostly don't want any stuff falling into said hole until I can fix it the right way.

[Guzzi2Go]

I fixed a couple of threads on my Honda CX-500 using Helicoil. Some of the fixes went well, some not so. What I learned in the process is that for holes that you fix and then leave alone for a long time (like engine hanger bolt or similar), Helicoil is ok. For things that are screwed in and out frequently (like spark plugs, valve cover studs, etc.) not so. I mean, it still kind of works, but it is not "as good as new". The inserts tend to "fall out" after a while, and I dare not tighten the screws to originally recommended minimum torque. On the other hand, the inserts are cheap, so as far as the new thread is ok, you may just put in a new one in case you drag the old one out.

 

Timesert (http://www.timesert.com) might be better choice for these kind of holes, however, I can't recommend it, since I did not try it out.

[Guest Nogbad]

What I have done with the Guzzi rocker covers, and sundry other gaskets is do it by a given angle of tighten past finger snug.

 

Say the new rocker gasket is 1mm thick and you want 20% compression, snug it up lightly, then for an M6 bolt that has 1.0mm pitch as standard you want 1 x 0.2 = 0.2mm compression, which is 1/5 turn on each bolt.

 

Seems to work for me, but obviously if it feels too tight stop, and with an old or very thin gasket the amount of compression set is small, and if you are using instant gasket it's all out of the window.

 

To get an idea of the compression, I miked up a used gasket and a fresh one which is how I came up with 20%.

 

YMMV I won't be responsible if you strip your threads!

[Guest ratchethack]

I fixed a couple of threads on my Honda CX-500 using Helicoil. Some of the fixes went well, some not so. What I learned in the process is that for holes that you fix and then leave alone for a long time (like engine hanger bolt or similar), Helicoil is ok. For things that are screwed in and out frequently (like spark plugs, valve cover studs, etc.) not so. I mean, it still kind of works, but it is not "as good as new". The inserts tend to "fall out" after a while, and I dare not tighten the screws to originally recommended minimum torque. On the other hand, the inserts are cheap, so as far as the new thread is ok, you may just put in a new one in case you drag the old one out.

 

Timesert (http://www.timesert.com) might be better choice for these kind of holes, however, I can't recommend it, since I did not try it out.

I agree for the most part, G2G. There are places where Heli-Coils are not the best solution. I've seen my share of disastrous attempts at spark plug hole repairs that IMHO were ill-conceived to begin with. Now this is just me, but I'd never consider a Heli-Coil in a spark plug hole as anything other than strictly a temporary emergency measure -- say for example in a boat motor on the upper reaches of the Orinoco river in flood season, where a replacement head (or any other alternative, for that matter) might be somewhat scarce, and the alternative might be a very long swim with the piranha.

 

For the most part, however, it's been my experience that a properly installed Heli-Coil in an aluminum engine case will most often be more reliable and durable long-term than the original aluminum case threads, particularly with the ubiquitous M6 case and cam/rocker cover thread holes, where frequency of cycling fasteners is not too high and torque stresses are relatively low. Properly done, a Heli-Coil in aluminum will tolerate a wider range of torque on the high side than original smaller diameter steel threads of the bolt itself in raw aluminum than the larger-diameter Heli-Coil replacements.

 

As it happened, the very first mechanical excursion on my Guzzi (first day) was a Heli-Coil repair of the sump drain, made necessary by the wrench maven at the dealer, whose ham-fisted butchery was followed by his obvious attempt to cover his tracks by cementing the drain plug in the stripped out hole with sealant. My Heli-Coil repair on this has been as reliable and durable over the years as any I've ever done, and I've done quite a few. I've never had a Heli-Coil "fall out" or fail in any way, and I don't hesitate to put the normal torque on 'em. I've never used Time-serts, nor have I ever seen one, but from reading their material, it appears to be an alternative with some merit, and may well make a superior solution to a Heli-Coil in many cases -- er, no pun intended.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[badmotogoozer]

Ben, not sure as I've not been in your spot, but if you want to ride leak free, try a slightly longer bolt - you might be able to pick up some deeper threads until the heli kit arrives. Can't make it any worse... and a sight better than loctite threads.

 

Timeserts are greatly superior to Heli, but in this case a heli will be fine. Use a bit of red or green loctite on the helicoil when you install it and make sure it is dry before putting the bolt in. Keeps the helicoil from backing out again when you take the bolt out.

 

cheers,

 

Rj

[DeBenGuzzi]

Ben, not sure as I've not been in your spot, but if you want to ride leak free, try a slightly longer bolt - you might be able to pick up some deeper threads until the heli kit arrives. Can't make it any worse... and a sight better than loctite threads.

 

Timeserts are greatly superior to Heli, but in this case a heli will be fine. Use a bit of red or green loctite on the helicoil when you install it and make sure it is dry before putting the bolt in. Keeps the helicoil from backing out again when you take the bolt out.

 

cheers,

 

Rj

I found the timesert for about $70 but I got the heli's for $15, the recoils I found for about $110 so that must be nice or just austrailian I dunno so I'll go with heli's and pick up some red locktight I think I only have blue right now. Longer screws wouldn't hurt, I'll see what I can find, unless someone already sourced them it seems like when I goto my local fasteners store(and more than one) they don't have much for metric with hex heads

I'll have to find a REAL fasteners store, maybe just order my stuff online.

[Guest Nogbad]

Beware of LOCTITE when putting helicoils in. Loctites are anaerobic sealants and only go hard in the absence of oxygen, i.e. in the joint itself. The excess loctite will sit there as a liquid, waiting in sinister ambush for when you put the bolt in.

 

If you do use loctite, wait an hour, and flush out the hole with spray brake cleaner before putting your (lightly greased) bolt back in!

[Guest ratchethack]

Beware of LOCTITE when putting helicoils in. Loctites are anaerobic sealants and only go hard in the absence of oxygen, i.e. in the joint itself. The excess loctite will sit there as a liquid, waiting in sinister ambush for when you put the bolt in.

 

If you do use loctite, wait an hour, and flush out the hole with spray brake cleaner before putting your (lightly greased) bolt back in!

[Guest mnv11]

I found the timesert for about $70 but I got the heli's for $15, the recoils I found for about $110 so that must be nice or just austrailian I dunno so I'll go with heli's and pick up some red locktight I think I only have blue right now. Longer screws wouldn't hurt, I'll see what I can find, unless someone already sourced them it seems like when I goto my local fasteners store(and more than one) they don't have much for metric with hex heads

I'll have to find a REAL fasteners store, maybe just order my stuff online.

http://www.fastenal.com/web/locations.ex?a...h&zip=edina

 

Worth a shot, I've found many an odd bolt here.

[raz]

I've been there too. All my bolts was M6x25. I switched the head guard ones to M6x30 after realizing they didn't use all threads available. It may be a small difference but still it may be just what keeps me from ruining one again.

[Dan M]

I found the timesert for about $70 but I got the heli's for $15, the recoils I found for about $110 so that must be nice or just austrailian I dunno so I'll go with heli's and pick up some red locktight I think I only have blue right now. Longer screws wouldn't hurt, I'll see what I can find, unless someone already sourced them it seems like when I goto my local fasteners store(and more than one) they don't have much for metric with hex heads

I'll have to find a REAL fasteners store, maybe just order my stuff online.

 

Ben,

 

I just called my local jobber. He has a 6X1 Helicoil kit on hand. That is the inserts and the installation tool for $35. (you'd need the drill bit) If you are striking out locally, PM me and I'll get it and mail it to you. I have a business so you can even pay by C Card. I'm in Chicago so you would likely have it by Saturday.

[badmotogoozer]

Beware of LOCTITE when putting helicoils in. Loctites are anaerobic sealants and only go hard in the absence of oxygen, i.e. in the joint itself. The excess loctite will sit there as a liquid, waiting in sinister ambush for when you put the bolt in.

 

If you do use loctite, wait an hour, and flush out the hole with spray brake cleaner before putting your (lightly greased) bolt back in!

 

Funny - when I've used red and green, I've always had to chip away the hardened excess. Guess I was dreaming. I've used literally litres of the stuff professionally.

 

Theoretically it shouldn't harden - but it does. Try it.

 

**edit** by no means am I saying not to wash it out with cleaner. A good way is to spray it on a Q-tip and muck out the hole. Makes less mess...

 

Rj

[DeBenGuzzi]

http://www.fastenal.com/web/locations.ex?a...h&zip=edina

 

Worth a shot, I've found many an odd bolt here.

thanks for the tip the one off bass lake rd is about a mile from me, I'll go and buy some of the M6x30's ASAP, might even be a decent fix until the helicoil kit arrives for the one hole, just for reference I did find one kit and ordered it already, I assume its the right kit here

[badmotogoozer]

Yup - all it's missing is the required drill bit. Can't quite read what size is needed (top corner of package). IIRC a 1/4" bit is real close. I'll see if I can find out exactly.

 

Rj