Break in: Kid gloves or ride it like ya stole it?

[zen_kick]

As the proud new owner of a 2004 Ballabio with 300ish miles on the odometer, I was given careful instructions to not take the bike over 5000 rpm for the first 500-1000 miles (depending upon who I talked to and if I am remembering right). So far I have been good and carefully backed off or shifted as the tach needle neared the fateful digit.

 

This is my first experience with a completely new bike. I have carefully broken in new vespa pistons and cylinders in my youth and watched pals partial or fully sieze when overtaxing their new equipment. I recently had someone tell me that new pistons and cylinders should be run harder at the start to seat rings correctly - unfortunately hard running can be hard on your gearbox and other components if there are any anomolies in the surface.

 

If I didn't have to worry about voiding out the warranty, any recommendations about running hotter than the magic 5000 as a good thing in the early miles of my new Guzzi?

[Guest ratchethack]

It's posts like this that fairly CRY OUT for the esteemed break-in advice of MOTOMAN!

 

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

To quote the mighty MM from the link above:

 

Q: What is the most common cause of engine problems ???

 

A: Failure to:

Warm the engine up completely before running it hard !!!

 

Q: What is the second most common cause of engine problems ???

 

A: An easy break in !!!

 

Because, when the rings don't seal well, the blow-by gasses contaminate the oil with acids and other harmful combustion by-products !!

 

Ironically, an "easy break in" is not at all what it seems. By trying to "protect" the engine, the exact opposite happens, as leaky rings continue to contaminate your engine oil for the rest of the life of your engine !!

 

It's up to you:

 

The loss in power from an easy break-in and the resulting poor ring seal can be

anywhere from 2% - 10% !!

 

In other words:

 

The gain in power from using this break-in method can be anywhere from 2% - 10% !!

[pete roper]

You'll get lots of differing opinions on this. My advice is just rode it *normally*. Don't lug it, (Wide throttle openings at low RPM.) don't thrash it, (Self explanatory.) and spend lots of time going up and down the gears and allowing it to slow down on the over-run as this helps draw oil up the bores.

 

Don't be too gentle or you can risk glazing a bore although this is rare with Nicasil as long as friction modified oils are avoided.

 

Because Guzzis are an all plain bearing motor you don't have to worry too much about breaking in. You'll probably find that your own natural caution engendered by riding a new bike will prevent you from doing anything too untoward and damaging. Once you're over the 1,000 Km-600 mile point do the first service and then up the pace gradually. You'll find that the greatest benefits after this point will come from tuning your suspension which is probably the component most likely to need breaking in on a modern bike.

 

Pete

[zen_kick]

Great link. Bummer is that the bike had 198 miles when I got it (demo model) so unless MI routinely follows the three-rev model on all new bikes, my window of opportunity to optimally seat the rings is gone. Upside is that I won't worry so much about seizing.

 

My /6 pulls best at about 4500 rpm. My wifes CB400 pulls and sounds best around 7500 rpm (redlines at 1000). My Eldo is an LAPD with the single gauge in the dash so I have no idea what it pulls best at. I suspect the V11 will have a different sound and pull right around 6000 rpm.

 

Need to do another 300 mi though to really find out (got to watch that warranty).

[Guest ratchethack]

Great link. Bummer is that the bike had 198 miles when I got it (demo model) so unless MI routinely follows the three-rev model on all new bikes, my window of opportunity to optimally seat the rings is gone.

Not necessarily, ZK. I've seen some err, "demonstrations" of wot "demo bikes" are subjected to a few times.... not only by prospective owners, but by "the guys in the back" at dealers. . . Seems to me this may be the VERY BEST kind of early break-in that can be had! This is just me, but I'd assume optimum break-in to this point and do wot Motoman says. I've been doing essentially the same thing since before Motoman was born with exceptional results meself. Never had a new or newly rebuilt motor use any oil this way (ever).

[Steve G.]

Great link. Bummer is that the bike had 198 miles when I got it (demo model) so unless MI routinely follows the three-rev model on all new bikes, my window of opportunity to optimally seat the rings is gone. Upside is that I won't worry so much about seizing.

 

My /6 pulls best at about 4500 rpm. My wifes CB400 pulls and sounds best around 7500 rpm (redlines at 1000). My Eldo is an LAPD with the single gauge in the dash so I have no idea what it pulls best at. I suspect the V11 will have a different sound and pull right around 6000 rpm.

 

Need to do another 300 mi though to really find out (got to watch that warranty).

You will be surprised at how long the break in will take, as in the engine "loosening up". Try 10,000 miles!

Pete said it correct. The key is to work the engine, through the middle of the rev range. Lugging a new engine is worse than revving it out.

Ciao, Steve

[dlaing]

Great link. Bummer is that the bike had 198 miles when I got it (demo model) so unless MI routinely follows the three-rev model on all new bikes, my window of opportunity to optimally seat the rings is gone.

I suspect the window of opportunity is much longer on the Nikasil lined cylinders of the Guzzi.

I say it is not too late to give it the MotoMan treatment....but I speak with no authority on the matter, other than owning a bike that blows oil into the airbox, possibly because I followed the Guzzi recommended break in. I did too well to avoid the mere hint of lugging, or reving beyond the recommended. This probably meant I was NOT forcing the gasses up behind the rings to press them into the cylinder walls so, they did not break in properly.

Wish I had known better

[stogieBill]

Personally, I'm with Ratchet on the Motoman break-in. But that's assuming a brand new machine.

 

I think the general consensus is don't lug it or baby it. I also agree that a demo bike has probably not been babied by prospective buyers

 

In the long run, it probably doesn't matter a whole hell of a lot. Enjoy your new goose

[mike wilson]

It's posts like this that fairly CRY OUT for the esteemed break-in advice of MOTOMAN!

 

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

 

From the page:

 

==========================================

So why do all the owner's manuals say to take it easy for the first

thousand miles ???

 

This is a good question ...

 

Why would Yamaha recommend a break in method which will prevent the rings

from sealing as well as possible ??

 

This is a good question ...

 

Why would Honda recommend a break in method which will prevent the

rings from sealing as well as possible ??

 

This is a good question ...

 

Why do the manufacturers recommend waiting until 600 miles to

flush out all the loose metal ???

 

This is a good question ...

===============================================

 

None of which he answers..... I understand that some of them may be rhetorical but I would really like to see his explanation for the first. I'm also curious as to why he specifies four strokes for this procedure. I assume two strokes are excluded, which I find odd.

 

He may have a point but breakin is, as with most things, a compromise. Gas pressure is what seats rings. Making the pressure higher _may_ help to seat rings slightly better but it seems to me that modern manufacturing and materials are having a bigger say in better sealing than some form of driving methodology. In any case, the methodology is not one easily applicable with some modern machinery. I'm not sure I would be comfortable making full throttle passes in second gear on, say, a brand new FJ1400 on the way home from the dealer. If it is even possible. The time taken (running the engine at outputs it is likely to endure for most of its working life) to get to a suitable place to do it would probably outweigh the theoretical benefit.

 

FWIW, I have always run in engines by treating them carefully - neither slogging or going into the higher reaches of their capabilities and making sure that they are warmed up before using more than modest throttle openings - and have never had any problems either. At least, none that weren't designed in....

[dlaing]

 

None of which he answers.....

He answers, but you have to be one of the sheople who sign up to get to his VIP pages of enlightenment and possibly eternal spamnation.

This link

http://mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm

MIGHT get you around having to give up some email address.

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .

So why do all the owner's manuals say to take it easy for the first

thousand miles ???

. . .

None of which he answers..... I understand that some of them may be rhetorical but I would really like to see his explanation for the first.

Things to make any Guzzista go, "Hmmmmm." Food for thought, Mike. This Forum is intended for discussion, and we all come here just for that purpose. Er, don't we? In any case, speaking for myself, I'm sincerely interested in exploring this. You seem to be sincere also. With that in mind, leave us peel back the onion a little.

 

Do you think there IS an answer to this question? If someone HAS the "correct" answer, where d'you suppose it might it be found? D'you think MotoMan's in a position to speak for the corporate behavior of manufacturers? Now this is just me, but I suspect that this is one of those Q's that has no clearly explainable answer. As far as I'm concerned, any attempt to answer it would be mere conjecture, and MotoMan doesn't "conject" here, this being perhaps less than appropriate to the thrust of his point, and beyond the scope of the results upon which both his analysis and his recommendations are based. If I were to speculate in ways that MotoMan doesn't here, I might throw out possibilities such as, "Corporate lawyers advise that this is prudent official customer policy from a liability perspective." Or even, "This is the way it's always been done, and the Board of Directors is comfortable with it." Do you think his lack of addressing this question detracts in some way from the consistency or strength of the results he's documented here and in his book?

 

Now if you believe that manufacturers recommend easy break-in because this is in fact best for the service life of their products (after all, this would be a reasonable expectation, n'est-ce pas?) -- Do you also think that MotoMan is merely a crackpot trying to sell books on controversy alone, since his detailed break-in analysis of over 300 engines has consistently run against manufacturer recommendations -- exactly as it has with my own experience (including on the Guzzi) and that of many many others, BTW, (with the same kinds of 100% consistent results over a few dozen motors in my case?) After all, this might be a possibility to consider, even a reasonable one!

 

I'm also curious as to why he specifies four strokes for this procedure. I assume two strokes are excluded, which I find odd.

Would you find anyone else's depth of experience with 4-strokes "odd" -- or less than valid -- because it may not include the same level of experience (or any level of experience for that matter) with 2-strokes?

I'm not sure I would be comfortable making full throttle passes in second gear on, say, a brand new FJ1400 on the way home from the dealer. If it is even possible. The time taken (running the engine at outputs it is likely to endure for most of its working life) to get to a suitable place to do it would probably outweigh the theoretical benefit.

Hmmmmmm.....Once I'd broken in my first freshly rebuilt engine successfully by running it "hard", more or less by the same procedure made more clear and explained carefully and backed by the results of hundreds of engines years hence as reflected in MotoMan's recommendations, I'd concluded that this was no longer "theoretical". I believed back then that I had all the PROOF I needed to do it again, which I did successfully and consecutively again, and probably two dozen times afterward, as mentioned previously. Once significant results are in and procedures are 100% repeatable, as MotoMan suggests with numbers like 300 engines as the basis for his analysis and recommendations, this advances things far past "theoretical" as far as I'm concerned. In my own case, it's been in the category of wot I've considered PROOF for over 30 years.

 

. . . But of course, that's just me.

 

FWIW, I have always run in engines by treating them carefully - neither slogging or going into the higher reaches of their capabilities and making sure that they are warmed up before using more than modest throttle openings - and have never had any problems either. At least, none that weren't designed in....

CAREFULLY is the key! I've been as CAREFUL as possible to follow MotoMan's procedure myself!

 

Thankfully, we still live in the "Free" world, which (still) unlike many parts of the planet today, affords us all many choices, and no one forces anyone at gunpoint or threat of pain of death (at least where I assume most of us live) to behave in many specific ways in our private lives -- just as though we were "free" in the Western Civilization sense of that word.

 

Ain't life (still) grand?

 

BAA, TJM, and YM may , (but I highly suspect otherwise) V.

[JoeV11]

I don't see why the two break-in procedures have to be mutually exclusive. If you give the bike full or nearly full throttle but don't lug it or exceed 5000 or 6000 rpm per Guzzi, havn't you seated the rings with plenty of gas pressure without danger of over taxing other drivetrain parts with high RPMs? That's what I did and the folks at Marsh Motors say mine is the best running V11 they have seen (after they installed a Stucci crossover). Joe

[guzzi jon]

I brake my bikes in my useing all the gears going up hill, down hill etc. no extended droneing or constant speed on the highway. Basically riding them assertively through the twisty bits while only occasionally revving up a bit yeilds a finely broken in bike. Of course the other info is most important as well

 

 

 

It's posts like this that fairly CRY OUT for the esteemed break-in advice of MOTOMAN!

 

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

To quote the mighty MM from the link above:

 

Q: What is the most common cause of engine problems ???

 

A: Failure to:

Warm the engine up completely before running it hard !!!

 

Q: What is the second most common cause of engine problems ???

 

A: An easy break in !!!

 

Because, when the rings don't seal well, the blow-by gasses contaminate the oil with acids and other harmful combustion by-products !!

 

Ironically, an "easy break in" is not at all what it seems. By trying to "protect" the engine, the exact opposite happens, as leaky rings continue to contaminate your engine oil for the rest of the life of your engine !!

 

It's up to you:

 

The loss in power from an easy break-in and the resulting poor ring seal can be

anywhere from 2% - 10% !!

 

In other words:

 

The gain in power from using this break-in method can be anywhere from 2% - 10% !!

[Guest ratchethack]

I brake my bikes in my useing all the gears going up hill, down hill etc. no extended droneing or constant speed on the highway. . . .

An important point not to be overlooked, Jon. One of the WORST things to do during the most critical part (or ANY part, IMHO) of the break-in period is to get out on the slab and hold a constant speed in the same gear.

 

I've seen more than one person take a brand-spankin' new car on a planned "long trip to break it in". They get out on the freeway and first thing they do is set the cruise. . . . IMHO cruise control should never be used during break-in. But does any dealer EVER mention this, or is it mentioned in any of the user manuals? Nyet!

[dlaing]

An important point not to be overlooked, Jon. One of the WORST things to do during the most critical part (or ANY part, IMHO) of the break-in period is to get out on the slab and hold a constant speed in the same gear.

Probably it is THE WORST thing next to thrashing it immediately after a cold start.

 

I think the no lugging is now a non-issue.

You want load on the engine.

You want it at various RPMs, starting down low and working your way up.

A properly tuned fuel injected Guzzi can handle wide open throttle from 2000 to 8400 RPM in top gear on a flat road.

Coming from carbbed bikes I used to loath the idea of putting a Guzzi on the dyno and having them map it for WOT at 2000 RPM, but now I understand.

I don't expect everyone to agree to this enlightenment right away. I know I did not get it right away, in fact I got it too late

Let the flaming begin