Break in: Kid gloves or ride it like ya stole it?

[Guest Nogbad]

Broke my last new car in using the MOTOMAN principle. Uses virtually zero oil, yet these engines have a bad rep for oil consumption. Betcha those cars were treated with kid gloves.

 

Broke the BUELL in using the MOTOMAN principles last year. In the 1st 1000 miles it used about 500ml of oil, since the first service it has used NONE AT ALL that I can see in the ensueing 2000 odd miles.

 

Too gentle break in is baaaaad. You have to generate enough sealing pressure and that means short bursts of fairly hard acceleration (but not lugging). You also need to shut the throttle regularly to suck oil up and remove any debris from the ring/bore seating area.

[Baldini]

I'm fairly ignorant about engineering but as a general principle : is NO oil use a desirable thing? If an engine is using no oil at all then is there any implication for longevity? Does no oil past rings mean not enough oil at rings....metal to metal = wear.

 

KB

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

 

I think the no lugging is now a non-issue.

You want load on the engine.

 

 

Dave. Lugging is a bad thing. Power is Ok at higher revs but at low revs DO NOT give it full power. This is not good for it. It isn't really good for any engine at any point in its life (Harleys excepted).

[Greg Field]

FWIW: Here's what I do:

 

About 3/4 mile from my house is a looooong and semi-steep uphill.

 

I fire the bike up, ride there, get foging well, upshift so I am really loading the rings, hammer the throttle, hold it for 20 seconds, roll off for 5 seconds, and repeat, over the 3-4 miles of that hill. The rings are seated when I come down, and oil useage is not an issue. this is with Nikasil Guzzi cylinders in every case. Then, I change the oil. All the stuff you need to worry about happens in the first few miles. If it's a new Guzzi, it has occured on the first few laps of the break-in tack in Mandello . . .

[dlaing]

Dave. Lugging is a bad thing. Power is Ok at higher revs but at low revs DO NOT give it full power. This is not good for it. It isn't really good for any engine at any point in its life (Harleys excepted).

Why is it bad for our fuel injected Guzzis?

Why does more RPM make it better?

In my opinion the RPM does not make a difference because the timing and mixture have been optimized to not overload the engine at low RPMs.

Actually, I suppose the RPM probably does make some difference. At maximum torque (5000-6000RPMs) I would suspect the most damage is being done...or maybe just before redline is the most damaging But I see no reason why the WOT at low RPM would be more damaging.

On non-fuel injected Guzzis I know this was a problem as the design left the engine very prone to pinging at low rpms.

To break in I would suggest something similar to the MotoMan method or Greg Field's method, but gradually building up the RPMs and throttle openings.

 

 

MotoMan writes:

On a Dyno:

Warm the engine up

completely !!

 

Then, using 4th gear:

 

Do Three 1/2 Throttle dyno runs from

40% - 60% of your engine's max rpm

Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes

 

Do Three 3/4 Throttle dyno runs from

40% - 80% of your engine's max rpm

Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes

 

Do Three Full Throttle dyno runs from

30% - 100% of your engine's max rpm

Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes

 

I would suggest something more like following, on a dyno:

Warm the engine up

completely !!

Then, using 4th gear:

 

Do Three 1/2 Throttle dyno runs from

40% - 60% of your engine's max rpm

Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes

 

Do Three 1/2-3/4 Throttle dyno runs from

30% - 80% of your engine's max rpm

increase the throttle from 1/2 to 3/4 as the RPMs pick up.

Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes

 

Do Three 3/4 to Full Throttle dyno runs from

20% - 100% of your engine's max rpm

increase the throttle from 3/4 to full as the RPMs pick up.

Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes

[Guest ratchethack]

Why is it bad for our fuel injected Guzzis?

Why does more RPM make it better?

In my opinion the RPM does not make a difference because the timing and mixture have been optimized to not overload the engine at low RPMs.

Lugging any motor is extremely destructive. Just hearing someone abuse a motor this way -- even from a distance -- makes me cringe. Ever know someone who habitually shifts into 2nd gear at about 4 mph and then steps on the gas, expecting the poor motor to cope with this?! Motor abuse like this oughta be a crime.

 

Think of it this way. At idle up to 2K RPM or so, the Guzzi donk is producing wot -- 10 horsepower or so? (It's off the dyno charts, they don't measure that low!!!) Rolling along in any gear while the motor's producing very low hp and torque, and then suddenly asking the Guzzi to haul y'er butt and the Guzzi, (combined weight in the neighborhood of 750 lbs.) smartly forward is asking the motor to do wot it's not prepared to do at that RPM, because it's not anywhere near it's power band. Not good. Is it any wonder the motor hesitates, chugs, gags, chokes, and generally acts like it's being abused under these conditions??!!

 

Generally speaking, with any motor, I will NEVER use WOT or anything close to it unless the engine is ALREADY up near where it makes serious TORQUE, in the case of the Guzzi it starts in earnest around 4.5-5K RPM (you don't need WOT, or anything close to it to get the motor up into it's power -- actually torque -- band!!!). But that's just me.

 

The reason we've got those splendidly spaced (IMHO) 6 gearsets is so that we've got a great, big, happy range of power delivery on tap at all times, making it incredibly easy to keep the motor in it's power band. Though the Guzzi makes a broader torque spread than many other kinds of motorcycles and probably needs far less than 6 ranges to keep it from lugging, there's only so much that can be expected of it!! Now with 6 cogs to choose from, IMHO there's just no excuse wotsoever not to keep the V11 happily in her power band whenever she's asked to deliver!

 

I'm sure Pete would have a pretty good schpiel on this and I'd love to hear his take. I expect destruction of the hydrodynamic oil wedge between bottom-end bearing shells and crank journal is a big part of wot happens when a Guzzi motor is lugged. It not only allows destructive babbitt metal-to-journal contact, but then throw pre-detonation due to improper fuel charge and abnormally high combustion chamber heat (carb or FI, it makes no difference), and piston slap, not to mention neuritis and neuralgia on the heap o' abuse pile. I'd rather chew glass than do this to ANY motor , but that's just me.

 

The Magliozzi Brothers, (aka Click & Clack, a couple o' syndicated Auto Column Wing-Nuts -- they're Italian -- I'll bet they know wot a Guzzi is!), took a swipe at this in the local fish wrap about a year ago:

 

CLICK & CLACK TOM AND RAY MAGLIOZZI

The San Diego Union-Tribune , February 11, 2006

 

DEAR TOM AND RAY:

 

I know that lugging the engine is bad, and I know how to avoid it. But what is it, really? What causes that pinging or clunking noise?

 

Is the crankshaft bouncing up and down? Is there detonation in the combustion chambers?

 

– Randy

 

RAY: Most of the noise comes from mistimed explosions in the cylinders, which is called “detonation” or “pinging.”

 

TOM: When you lug the engine, when you try to accelerate in too high a gear, you make the engine work harder than it's supposed to. Just like you would work harder than you're supposed to if you rode your bicycle up a steep hill in 21st gear – as opposed to first gear.

 

RAY: When the engine is overworked, it overheats. The way it overheats is that the temperature inside the cylinders gets too high.

 

When that happens, the gasoline-and-air mixture, which is supposed to detonate when the spark plug fires, detonates unpredictably at other times, too. That's called pinging – when those extra detonations make a sound like marbles rolling around in a coffee can.

 

TOM: And under the worst of circumstances, you can also get piston slap, which is a “clunky” noise. Because you are getting uneven combustion inside the cylinder (the detonation doesn't necessarily happen at the right time or in the right spot), the explosion can force the piston off to one side when it descends during the power stroke.

 

When that happens repeatedly, the cylinder walls get all scraped up and, over time, your car turns into the proverbial oil-burning heap.

 

RAY: Also see: “Any car ever owned by my brother.”

[dlaing]

 

Generally speaking, with any motor, I will NEVER use WOT or anything close to it unless the engine is ALREADY in it's power band (you don't need WOT, or anything close to it to get the motor up into it's power band!!!). But that's just me.

So I guess the exception to the "generally speaking" would be the MotoMan method that recommends WOT at 2500RPM.

 

The situation in lugging that I would agree is bad for the engine is if the lugging is done to the point of stalling the engine. I can give my Guzzi WOT at 2000RPM on a flat road and it will gently accellerate, but if I find myself rounding a slow hair pin turn that turns into an ascent and my gear selection is now to low forcing me to down shift, I would think that if I did not downshift and ended up stalling the engine, that would be hard on the engine. It would probably be bad for the engine just getting to that point where I recognize that my gear selection was too high.

But on flat land, I don't think there is a throttle opening that is too wide open, except maybe below 2000RPM.

I am not advocating 2000RPM and WOT for general riding, as there is no sense to it, so, if you have the gears use them. But there is no harm done, either.

Durring the break in process, I think that 3/4 of WOT at 1600 RPMs would be a good thing.

MotoMan likes full WOT at 2500RPMs for our bike, and I think that would be fine.

In addition, I think durring the first thousand miles one should try to regularly give more than 50% throttle through the RPMs and avoid cruising more than anything.

I broke mine in the wrong way by mixing cruising with gentle accellerating and not loading the engine for fear of lugging it. I changed the oil to semi-synthetic at 500 miles, but by then my opportunity to break it in properly MAY have passed.

If I get new rings and re-hone, do you think I could get a second chance?

 

 

 

RAY: Also see: “Any car ever owned by my brother.”

And remember, "Don't drive like my brother!"

[Guest ratchethack]

So I guess the exception to the "generally speaking" would be the MotoMan method that recommends WOT at 2500RPM.

Of course, Dave. MotoMan's ref. to WOT at 2500 RPM is strictly WRT BREAK-IN ON THE DYNO. By "generally speaking", I was referring to AFTER BREAK-IN ON THE ROAD.

[Guest Mattress]

Arrgh...I can't take it anymore. What is the fasination with this Motoman procedure? As if you don't do it your bike will run like crap, burn heaps of oil, blah blah blah.

 

I think the original poster is overly concerned. Whats the claimed benefit? "Better" seated rings, more power, less oil consumption? I've seen his website and have trouble with his "proof". First of all, whats the variance in engine output due to tolerance stackups and component variability coming out of the factory? I'd say 5% would be a decent estimate!

 

You can't break in the same engine with both procedures without inducing un-knowns during the rebuild.

And it is pretty ballsy to claim to Know that the reason your bike has this or that because you did the motoman breakin. Where is one's "proof"? a time machine that we can climb in so you can break it in by factory methods and show us the resulting pile of italian crap you are left with (so we should believe)?

 

Does MG hot start each engine at the factory? If yes, than whats the point of this break-in?

 

Wait, must stop myself and find zen because I know no matter what arguments I present, those convinced motoman is the mesiah himself, will remain so convinced.

 

I think motoman is a lot of b.s.

[Guest Nogbad]

Arrgh...I can't take it anymore. What is the fasination with this Motoman procedure? As if you don't do it your bike will run like crap, burn heaps of oil, blah blah blah.

 

I think the original poster is overly concerned. Whats the claimed benefit? "Better" seated rings, more power, less oil consumption? I've seen his website and have trouble with his "proof". First of all, whats the variance in engine output due to tolerance stackups and component variability coming out of the factory? I'd say 5% would be a decent estimate!

 

You can't break in the same engine with both procedures without inducing un-knowns during the rebuild.

And it is pretty ballsy to claim to Know that the reason your bike has this or that because you did the motoman breakin. Where is one's "proof"? a time machine that we can climb in so you can break it in by factory methods and show us the resulting pile of italian crap you are left with (so we should believe)?

 

Does MG hot start each engine at the factory? If yes, than whats the point of this break-in?

 

Wait, must stop myself and find zen because I know no matter what arguments I present, those convinced motoman is the mesiah himself, will remain so convinced.

 

I think motoman is a lot of b.s.

 

Yeah whatever. Am I bovvered? Do I look bovvered?

[Guest ratchethack]

I broke mine in the wrong way by mixing cruising with gentle accellerating and not loading the engine for fear of lugging it. I changed the oil to semi-synthetic at 500 miles, but by then my opportunity to break it in properly MAY have passed.

If I get new rings and re-hone, do you think I could get a second chance?

Dave, If you're experiencing symptoms of blow-by and oil consumption due to improper break-in, as I think you've suggested several times, the symptoms will never get better -- they can only get worse.

 

I think I might've responded to this before? Having successfully done many many top-end jobs myself on many kinds of motors, including many moto's (forgot exactly how many and to what stage of rebuild on each), and also having successfully done many many break-ins per the MotoMan technique on ALL the same engines, I would suggest that new rings and de-glazing the cylinders, possibly a ball hone (depending on how the bores look) -- followed by proper break-in, of course -- is your ONLY chance at achieving engine performance the Guzzi was designed for. Properly done, it could be a "new lease" on a "new life" for y'er Guzzi.

 

IMHO the Guzzi donk is just about the easiest conceivable twin moto on the planet to do a top-end job on. If called for, I'd do the de-glazing and/or ball hone myself in my home shop along with a thorough decarb of the pistons, and (depending on how things look and spec out) probably fit a set of new rings, carefully end-gapped. Of course this would be the optimum time for a thorough reconditioning of the heads, and possible (likely?) K-lining of the guides, and (depending on condition) possibly valve regrind and lapping-in, probably hot tank decarb, possibly re-paint the heads, valve spring free length measure, etc. -- in other words, all the usual stuff that gets done in a complete top-end job.

 

As I think I might've mentioned earlier, if you're not comfortable tackling this as a "first time" project, y'er pals at Sonny Angel might be just the guys to do it for you. Sonny's done a pretty fair heap of Guzzi heads over the years, and I reckon he knows wot he's about with every aspect of this job, and he might be more experienced at it on Guzzi's than anyone in San Diego. He More'n likely has his favorite National City machine shop guys do valve & seat work to his spec's.

 

Depending on your current symptoms, you might want to plan this for an optimum time, since it's not a time-critical job that will result in a catastrophic failure if not done immediately -- but rather one that as long as it's not done, will continue to take a steady toll on the motor over time -- more of a "death by a thousand cuts" kinda thing....

 

Good luck.

[v11cafe]

An important point not to be overlooked, Jon. One of the WORST things to do during the most critical part (or ANY part, IMHO) of the break-in period is to get out on the slab and hold a constant speed in the same gear.

 

I've seen more than one person take a brand-spankin' new car on a planned "long trip to break it in". They get out on the freeway and first thing they do is set the cruise. . . . IMHO cruise control should never be used during break-in. But does any dealer EVER mention this, or is it mentioned in any of the user manuals? Nyet!

 

 

I agree 100%.Plus no town riding for the first 1000 km.A nice curvy road helps breaking in all

components of the bike (brakes/suspension /gearbox.....) + YOU.

[dlaing]

Depending on your current symptoms, you might want to plan this for an optimum time, since it's not a time-critical job that will result in a catastrophic failure if not done right away -- but rather one that if not done, will continue to take a steady toll on the motor over time -- more of a "death by a thousand cuts" kinda thing....

So, your answer is yes, a top end job followed by the moto-man method might cure the problem.

For a while I thought the problem had gotten better, but it is just the randomness of the problem. Oil selection makes some difference.

I change the oil enough that I don't think the blow by is over contaminating the oil.

But maybe the reason I think 6000 miles is too long a change duration is because the oil is breaking down quicker and my noticing that after changing expensive oil at 3000 miles the engine runs quieter is because the oil is diluted with contaminant by then, but it does not smell of gasoline, and is not very dark so I don't know why it runs quieter

I am not sure what the other thousand cuts might be.

The extra oil leaking by may make my cylinder walls last longer....maybe not

But being able to go 6000 miles between oil changes could save me hundreds of dollars over the next ten years.

Carl Allison's comments on Mike Rich's comments on the soft valve stems are certainly motivation for new valves and K-lining, if that is not too late...But I think I would be seeing blue smoke about that time that there is that much damage.

I keep putting off doing a compression test, probably for fear of facing the truth.

In any case I should start ordering the parts, as I really want the Mike Rich valves, and maybe the Mike Rich Pistons.

Thanks for the comments.

[guzzi jon]

I tend to break my new bikes in on the local hills lots of gear changing, loading and unloading and fairly well subjected to a bit of everything. After a hundered miles, i also let it rev a bit, with no problems ever. My gut feel is that most moder bikes (kind of include guzzi in this group) have got machining tolerances close. I've seen several bikes with less than 100 miles strapped to a dyno and wrung the piss out of with no apparrent problems, not my first choice for a purchase, but I'm sold the first few hot and cold cycles work out the majority of real issues. Certainly magaizines dont follow breakin instructions, however I do follow my own which do allow for similar mileage, if not similar limitations. No freeway droning, but up and down hill strafing seems the best bet for me.... YMMV

[Guest drknow]

I follow the Motoman break-in procedures, but it's much easier to do at the track. Short of the track or a dyno, I do this:

 

Warm up thoroughly, ride for 20 minutes or so varying rev range widely, using 80 percent of the rpm range but in the low gears, extra emphasis on no lugging!

 

Stop and let cool COMPLETELY.

 

Almost bang the thing off the rev limiter (want every rev but limiter isn't good) in the low gears and ride it like you're trying to break it (but not really). Change the oil and filter after the first ride or 150 miles.

 

Pay attention to lugging for first few hundred miles. (by this I mean try not to lug the bike)

 

I would say if you can, do it on a dyno or track though, much easier. Guzzi's do take forever to break-in, though. Low revving motor and nikasil...

 

dk