Break in: Kid gloves or ride it like ya stole it?

[Guest ratchethack]

So, your answer is yes, a top end job followed by the moto-man method might cure the problem.

Dave, I'd put it much stronger than this. Now this is just me, but -- again -- I base the following on 100% consistent personal experience here with many motors (including the Guzzi) AND the FAIRLY consistent recommendation of MOST of the Pro's. I'd say that a proper top-end job would ELIMINATE your current "problems" (that is, symptoms of blow-by from rings that were never seated and can never seat due to improper break-in), and ALLOW you to "start over" with an opportunity to seat the rings like they should have been seated in the first place.

 

I don't think there's much question that this would be well worth the effort for most people in similar circumstances. Especially if it's time for any valve work, and you've got to have the heads off anyway. Throw in your Mike Rich valves and K-line the guides, and I reckon you might be good for another 100K miles, minimum.

 

Now this part is just me and YMMV, but if you put the MR high-comp pistons in at the same time without a serious re-shaping/flow bench work on the heads, (and even if you DO), all bets are off, and good luck finding pump gas you can run on in this state without condemning y'er motor to a NEW AND DIFFERENT kind of death sentence than the one it's got on it now. I'd avoid the idea of LARGER MR valves like the plague -- I believe there is NO upside of any kind here, and lots of significant downside on the road -- but o' course, that's just me.

 

BTW -- Have you asked Sonny Angel for his recommendation on breaking in new rings in fresh (or "re-freshed") bores?

 

Dollars to Sonny's Saturday breakfast donuts wot he does is for the most part the MotoMan procedure.

[dlaing]

BTW -- Have you asked Sonny Angel for his recommendation on breaking in new rings in fresh (or "re-freshed") bores?

 

Dollars to Sonny's Saturday breakfast donuts wot he does is for the most part the MotoMan procedure.

I mentioned the MotoManMethod to Don Angel years ago.

I don't remember his answer clearly, but I recollect him saying something like, yes, people do that, and then he went on about his strategy which seemed to be somewhere between the book and the moto-man-method. Vary the revs, don't do long freeway trips, don't lug it, yadda yadda yadda.

It could be some dealers feel obligated by contract with Guzzi, to back up Guzzi's recommended break-in strategy, or atleast no sway far from it.

Few are going to stick their necks out and go against the common beliefs by telling people to lug an engine to break it in.

MotoMan himself is not upfront about that aspect of his breaking in strategy.

And Ratchet, you certainly were not up front about it. Probably because of years of a belief of thinking it is bad.

I think we had five or six people say it was bad after I mentioned that it is not bad.

Dr.Know is the first here to openly take that daring stance and say to lug it the first hundred miles

[Guest ratchethack]

Few are going to stick their necks out and go against the common beliefs by telling people to lug an engine to break it in.

MotoMan himself is not upfront about that aspect of his breaking in strategy.

And Ratchet, you certainly were not up front about it. Probably because of years of a belief of thinking it is bad.

I think we had five or six people say it was bad after I mentioned that it is not bad.

Dr.Know is the first here to openly take that daring stance and say to lug it the first hundred miles

Dave, I think wot Dr. Know meant by "paying attention" to lugging is wot he clarified up front:

. . .extra emphasis on no lugging!

Now wot's this about me "certainly not" being "up front" about lugging?!?!

Are you saying that I should have mentioned it EARLIER?

I find myself struggling hard to understand again, Dave.

I think most guys who've been around motors for any length of time understand how destructive it is (I reckon I had a pretty good handle on it by the time I was about 12 myself) and I might be guilty of taking this understanding for granted here on this Forum. If so, shame on me and spank me silly.

But "certainly not" being "up front" about it sounds deceitful, as in, intent to mislead , Dave! Do you think I've been either negligent, dastardly, or horribly wicked in some way??

 

Here's a definition of lugging I found somewhere:

 

Any condition of operation of an engine where significant opening of the throttle does not result in an IMMEDIATE increase in RPM.

Few are going to stick their necks out and go against the common beliefs by telling people to lug an engine to break it in.

I don't see anywhere that anyone has recommended lugging during break-in -- or any other time. Wot have I missed?

 

For breaking in ON THE DYNO ONLY, MotoMan recommended a procedure working up to 4th gear full throttle runs at 30-100% RPM. I do not believe that this would be lugging the Guzzi Motor, or likely many other motors, but in the case where it did NOT result in immediate increase in RPM, I reckon raising the starting RPM up until the engine does NOT lug, would be the way to go.

 

But that's just me.

[dlaing]

 

For breaking in ON THE DYNO ONLY, MotoMan recommended whacking open the throttle at 2500 RPM. I do not believe that this would be lugging the Guzzi Motor, or likely many other motors, but in the case where it did NOT result in immediate increase in RPM, I reckon raising the whacking RPM up 500 or until the engine does NOT lug, would be the way to go.

 

But that's just me.

I guess that our definitions of lugging are different.

My humble apologies for the misunderstanding.

My definition for lugging would include a slow rise in RPM, such that common sense would dictate under normal riding conditions to downshift.

I would call your definition closer to "stalling"

[Guest ratchethack]

I would call your definition closer to "stalling"

Er, isn't "stalling" always a LOSS of RPM -- in fact, all the way down to 0 RPM -- which generally always calls for a re-start?

 

Now this is just me, but "immediate increase" in RPM would seem to be a considerable departure from a "slow rise" in RPM. So if a "slow rise" in RPM with significant throttle opening is wot you consider lugging, we wouldn't seem to be in disagreement on the definition of lugging, Dave.

 

But if you consider the definition I gave closer to "stalling" -- Well, I'll simply have to insist that this is incorrect.

[Greg Field]

I advocate lugging if you are breaking in new rings only (that is, already "broken-in" bearings). I use a steep hill and put the bike in one gear higher than I normally would for the speed I'm starting the load run at and full throttle to really load the rings. Motoman does the same thing, turning up the load on the dyno to apply extra load on the rings. What he means when he recommends xx percent throttle at xx percent of redline is that he sets the throttle and controls the revs to whatever speed that is by varying the load on the dyno so it doesn't rev higher. In other words, the rpm not only doesn't increase slowly, it doesn't increase at all. In other words, he's lugging it for that throttle setting and rpm. He's at 100 percent power for those settings.

[Guest drknow]

I advocate lugging if you are breaking in new rings only (that is, already "broken-in" bearings). I use a steep hill and put the bike in one gear higher than I normally would for the speed I'm starting the load run at and full throttle to really load the rings. Motoman does the same thing, turning up the load on the dyno to apply extra load on the rings. What he means when he recommends xx percent throttle at xx percent of redline is that he sets the throttle and controls the revs to whatever speed that is by varying the load on the dyno so it doesn't rev higher. In other words, the rpm not only doesn't increase slowly, it doesn't increase at all. In other words, he's lugging it for that throttle setting and rpm. He's at 100 percent power for those settings.

 

I agree with Greg here, who agrees with Moto-Man. It's not lugging as I've always thought about it. 100 percent throttle, lower rpm load for brief intervals up to redline.

 

I wasn't clear enough on my post. I pay careful attention to NOT lug the motor the first 100 miles.

 

dk

[Guest ratchethack]

I advocate lugging if you are breaking in new rings only (that is, already "broken-in" bearings). I use a steep hill and put the bike in one gear higher than I normally would for the speed I'm starting the load run at and full throttle to really load the rings. Motoman does the same thing, turning up the load on the dyno to apply extra load on the rings. What he means when he recommends xx percent throttle at xx percent of redline is that he sets the throttle and controls the revs to whatever speed that is by varying the load on the dyno so it doesn't rev higher. In other words, the rpm not only doesn't increase slowly, it doesn't increase at all. In other words, he's lugging it for that throttle setting and rpm. He's at 100 percent power for those settings.

Well said, Greg. Thanks for explaining this. I've gained a new understanding here, and stand partially corrected on wot I said above, though the lugging comments were mostly in ref. to riding on the road, and mostly in ref. to non-break-in conditions. It would seem that "controlled lugging" for break-in purposes can be effectively done both on the dyno and on the road to a more limited extent.

 

It might bear emphasizing that wot you can do under carefully controlled conditions with a dyno to break in a motor would seem to be much more efficient and predictable than wot you can do on the road. Lugging a motor under any conditions just gives me the Heebie Jeebies.

 

I'm not sure I could stand by and watch this done to my Guzzi on a dyno.

 

BAA, TJM & YMMV

[dlaing]

Er, isn't "stalling" always a LOSS of RPM -- in fact, all the way down to 0 RPM -- which generally always calls for a re-start?

 

Now this is just me, but "immediate increase" in RPM would seem to be a considerable departure from a "slow rise" in RPM. So if a "slow rise" in RPM with significant throttle opening is wot you consider lugging, we wouldn't seem to be in disagreement on the definition of lugging, Dave.

 

But if you consider the definition I gave closer to "stalling" -- Well, I'll simply have to insist that this is incorrect.

Yah, no rpm increase is not stalling, it is only closer to the point of stalling than slow rise in rpm.

Sorry, I spoke unclearly..

I would agree that stalling an engine is likely bad for it.

 

Yes, we are in agreement that a "slow rise" in RPM, when at lower RPMs with significant throttle opening is lugging.

The MotoMan method is lugging.

In my opinion less harm will come from WOT in sixth gear at 2500rpm than at 5000rpm as long as the load is not so great that there is no increase in rpm.

I don't recommend driving WOT in sixth at 2500, because it is easy enough to down shift and go faster.

Why lug it if you don't have to. But lugging a V11 it is not like lugging an older Guzzi where pinging would be likely, which would be harmful.

Lugging to the point of pinging is bad and should never be done, not even when breaking it in.

But the V11 won't ping if properly tuned, so I say rest easy if you lug it, don't sweat it like you did with bikes of old. The only thing that will happen is your rings and cylinders will wear out slightly sooner, but probably less sooner than WOT at 5000RPM.

[dlaing]

It might bear emphasizing that wot you can do under carefully controlled conditions with a dyno to break in a motor would seem to be much more efficient and predictable than wot you can do on the road. Lugging a motor under any conditions just gives me the Heebie Jeebies.

 

I'm not sure I could stand by and watch this done to my Guzzi on a dyno.

 

What bugs me is that the dyno operator wears hearing protection and probably can't hear pinging.

For peace of mind, do the dyno run after a recent oil change with shock proof heavy where appropriate

Also, don't put a ping prone bike on the dyno, although ping prone bikes are the ones that need the dynotuning the most.

 

I think a racetrack break-in would be better for Guzzi Karma.

[Guzzirider]

 

I think a racetrack break-in would be better for Guzzi Karma.

 

When I bought my V11, I did a gentle 100 miles or so, then entered a motorcycle hill climb at Strata Florida in mid Wales, where I obviously revved the tits off it on 2 practice runs, and the final timed run.

 

End result, no damage done but a nice crisp motor.

 

Guy

[Guest NotRight]

When I bought my V11, I did a gentle 100 miles or so, then entered a motorcycle hill climb at Strata Florida in mid Wales, where I obviously revved the tits off it on 2 practice runs, and the final timed run.

 

End result, no damage done but a nice crisp motor.

 

Guy

 

 

So I guess you believe if you had just parked it in the garage instead of hill climbing, then put on a few thou with varying loads unintentionally close to factory break-in procedure, You'd have a less crisp if not dis-satisfying purchase?

[Guzzirider]

So I guess you believe if you had just parked it in the garage instead of hill climbing, then put on a few thou with varying loads unintentionally close to factory break-in procedure, You'd have a less crisp if not dis-satisfying purchase?

 

Who knows? Maybe it makes no difference what you do!

 

Been riding Guzzis for years and don't worry about it! Apart from my V65 Lario, I have never had an engine break itself in tens of thousands of miles of riding, so have the confidence to ride the bike not stroke it.

 

Guy

[mike wilson]

Very interesting thread so far. Pity I was away over the weekend - there was much to jump in on. So, a few more penn'orth.

 

First of all, a postulation: the wear between a new cylinder and rings follows an inverse logarithmic pattern. That is, the first stroke procudes the most wear. The next stroke quite a bit less. The next stroke a bit less again. And so on, until each stroke produces virtually no wear. Until, at some point in the future, some factor is exceeded that causes wear to accelerate again to the point of needing repair/replacement. A graph of the wear would look like a very open letter "U" with the right hand leg not rising as much as the left. Maybe a back-to-front letter "J" would be a better analogy. Is this generally agreed to be a reasonable picture of what goes on at the bore/ring interface, all conditions being normal?

 

If the above is true, it is the _very_ first strokes that cause most wear by a large margin.

 

This is where I find Motoman's logic to be flawed. By the time you have warmed up your engine (what? 20 minutes to get a decent sized lump up to temperature?) for the first time much, if not most, of the serious wear has already taken place. In a sense, it doesn't really matter what you do. At least, as far as the ring/bore interface is concerned. It's already done what it's going to do. For the rest of the machine, it may well be a different story. Putting aside the "special circumstances" of ring/bore seating, it seems that nobody disputes that the rest of the machine (gearbox, final drive, wheel bearings, all the walloping bits in the cylinder head, etc.) need to be treated gently to produce the best life. Motoman wants you to do exactly the opposite. For his hypothesis to be functionally true, one would need to have a system of externally warming the engine and then apply the procedure from the first cough.

 

Is there an answer? Is there pills! The reason why some machines don't seal well? For me, I would be questioning exactly what happened to them in that first twenty minutes, when they were tested at the factory or run during a PDI. That's where the fate of your machine is decided.

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

FWIW: Here's what I do:

 

About 3/4 mile from my house is a looooong and semi-steep uphill.

 

I fire the bike up, ride there, get foging well, upshift so I am really loading the rings, hammer the throttle, hold it for 20 seconds, roll off for 5 seconds, and repeat, over the 3-4 miles of that hill. The rings are seated when I come down, and oil useage is not an issue. this is with Nikasil Guzzi cylinders in every case. Then, I change the oil. All the stuff you need to worry about happens in the first few miles. If it's a new Guzzi, it has occured on the first few laps of the break-in tack in Mandello . . .

 

Greg. By chance, did you ever work on light aircraft? That is similar to the procedure for breaking in an aero engine (recip) after overhaul or ring change. The first flight after overhaul the aircraft climbs at full power to about 10,000 feet then descends and repeats the procrdure one more time. Voila!! The engine is broke in!!

 

This technique is much the same as MotoMan suggests on his website.