Warm Fuzzies?

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

Guzzis like "dynamic tension" when cornering. I use the throttle to keep the chassis jacked up while braking. Seems to help more on the Eldo than on the V11 but it does help on the latter, too. THey hate violent on/off throttle and brakes transitions.

 

I find that the Guzzi is much easier to corner if you bump up the idle to about 2000 rpm. The tendency to twitch from backing off the throttle too quickly goes away.

[Dan M]

I find that the Guzzi is much easier to corner if you bump up the idle to about 2000 rpm. The tendency to twitch from backing off the throttle too quickly goes away.

 

 

Wow, don't you find your motor gets hot in stop & go traffic situations? Or maybe in BC there is no such thing.

[dlaing]

. . . I hate to burst the bubble of y'er extreme fantasy here, but if a "silk purse" to you means something close to "modern" World Class performance (which I reckon most of us ain't after, or we'd have bought World Class performance motorcycles to start with) the reality is that there isn't enough money or unobtanium on this planet to bolt on y'er Guzzi in replacement of other stuff to transport a V-11 into the same solar system, let alone to the same planet. Not remotely within an intergalactic chip-shot.

I guess Guareshchi got his World Class silk purse from beyond the intergalactic chip-shot.

Long live Moto Guzzi, builder of World Class Super Twins

Not to mention Zeb's, Paul's, and other fine bikes, many from FireStarter Garage.

There is much one can do to shed weight, make the bike more rigid, and make the suspension work.

The analogy of a Kenworth with Lotus suspension does not hold water when comparing what Ohlins and other fine upgrades can do for the Guzzi.

Do not pay attention to the doubters of the amazing Moto Guzzi, winner of the Battle of the Twins!

WARM FUZZIES!!!!

[Guest ratchethack]

Do not pay attention to the doubters of the amazing Moto Guzzi, winner of the Battle of the Twins!

Errrrrr, Daaaaaaaaaaave.

 

No one is doubting the greatness of the marque, it's storied history of unsurpassed accomplishments in endurance racing and more recently in BOT Formula 1, or the skill or racing record of Guareschi here, Dave. None of this has been even remotely applicable to this thread or the discussion so far. Bringing this up the way you have here makes me wonder how well (or how often) your feet might be planted on terra firma ?

 

Some of us know that there's a difference between all of the above and wot we ride and how we ride on the road, and we don't suffer any illusions or confusion about wot we're riding and how we ride and wot professional racers ride on race tracks!

 

On the other hand, it seems there are others who build castles in the air. Then there are still OTHERS, Dave, who build castles in the air -- AND THEN MOVE IN!

 

There seems to be a great deal of, er, shall we say, an over-active imagination at work here.

 

Dave, you've whinged on long and wide on the "wisdom" of such foolishness as replacing steel wheel spacers with titanium, replacing steel bearings with ceramic bearings, using carbon fiber parts, and other gram-saving part replacement measures on V11's that are ridden on the road -- as if doing this (and presumably much more of this) can somehow transform a V-11 into a World Class performance bike capable of performing with other bikes in this class. How many parts d'you imagine it would take to replace, each saving a few grams, to come up with a weight savings of 100 lbs., Dave? I've questioned the wisdom of this, considering that a savings of a few grams on a 530 lb. bike with a 40 lb. rear wheel and hub would seem, well -- pointless to the point of being beyond silly -- it's just absurd.

 

Do you imagine that ANY such parts trade-out regimen, carried to it's ultimate end, would allow YOU, Dave, (or any average rider for that matter) to keep up with average riders of the latest Jap hyperbikes??

 

If you read my post above, I was comparing V-11 potential against Japanese hyperbikes on the road. I was NOT comparing a Formula 1 prepared MGS-01 BOTT racing bike to any Japanese hyperbike!!

 

Are you following me at all, Dave?

 

Do you then imagine, Dave, that there's much of anything in common between YOUR Guzzi and Guareschi's Formula 1 BOT MGS-01 racing bike? Just WOT would the common parts be? Do you plan on making up the rest of the differences between your V-11 and a Formula 1 BOT MGS-01 racing bike piece by piece, in an attempt to put your Guzzi in the same performance class with Japanese hyperbikes? Do you know of anyone who's done this or any part of it? Please do advise.

 

Now there's a well-respected Pro with a worldwide reputation and decades of Guzzi engine building experience, including years of building racing Guzzi's, who has clearly and repeatedly stated on this Forum that the V-11 motor IS NOT CAPABLE of 100 rwhp in a tractable state of tune with any semblance of durability past beating itself to death in short order. It would seem that you've repeatedly ignored this, or that you simply choose to believe otherwise.

 

Dave, there's a difference between believing in the real-world capability of your machine and VALUING IT FOR WHAT IT IS, (which is considerable, IMHO -- it's my all-time favorite) and attempting to live out a delusion that your motorcycle is some kind of a fantasy platform for delirious dreaming of imaginary world beating performance capability against Japanese multi hyperbikes off the local dealer's showroom floor, and insisting that it can be something it can obviously never be.

 

Are you confused, Dave, or simply insistent on living in a permanent dream world?

[dlaing]

Dear John,

You continue to amaze me with your narrow minded vision.

Who says a V11 has to stay a V11? Bore it, stroke it, anyway you want to. Port it, twin plug it, put a hot cam in it and you got that magical 100HP atleast at the crank.

Want over 100HP at the rear wheel:

Guareschi used a motor that you can mail order.

And most of the other parts can also be mail ordered.

Yah, keeping the spine frame, the bike might weigh a little more than Guareshci's, especially after the bracing, but it won't weigh a lot more.

Whether or not it is a silk purse or not is a subjective argument.

You can certainly make a huge difference over a stock Guzzi with a little investment.

In my experience, the average Guzzi rider is faster AND more importantly, safer than your average gixxer rider. Yah, their bike cost less and has more HP, but average the cost they spend over a lifetime and the costs even out. Mid-range vs. Peak Power is a whole other argument.

If you put a certain So-Cal rider on his far from stock Jackal up against Keith Code, or Freddy Spencer riding oh, say a stock Honda VFR on a tight track, and I have no doubt my money is on the guy riding the Jackal. The only edge the VFR will have come from the peak HP. Maybe that is not a fair comparison. There are certainly alot of lighter Japanese bikes, but not in the same Sport Touring class. Oh but the Jackal is a cruiser, so let us match up a V11 with Ohlins, ceramic rotors, forged wheels, braced frame, the mail order motor Guareshi used but maybe with a little less power, up against an R1.

Now, that would be a nice matchup! the R1 has the weight advantage and the peak HP, but that is all. The Ohlins are superior. The Guzzi Torque is superior, and I am sure that on most tracks the R1 will win, but on the real road where we ride the match is close in all areas.

Motorcycling fast in the twisties is mostly rider, followed by tires, followed by suspension, followed by the weight of the bike, followed by width and strength of torque band, followed by the peak HP of your mighty silk purse, four cylindered, multivalved, water cooled, crap.

[John in Leeds]

Let's take another tack, you can compare all you like one bike with another but really the wonderful V11 is a 'no loose' bike. All tests say it is low on horsepower and heavy, ergo it cannot compete with the hypebikes - if they are faster than you there is no qudos to them. They are faster than a slower, heavier bike, so what. However, you learn to master your V11, make it work near it's optimum, know your road, roadcraft and lines and then you can get near, match or even beat them on your patch or on a good day. You are then the God, the myth and their excuses come tumbling out, 'my tyres', ' a misfire'. Love your bike - it's looks, simplicity, history, mine will stay with me forever. Just enjoy.

[Guest ratchethack]

You continue to amaze me with your narrow minded vision.

Er, Dave -- do you consider awareness of the laws of Earth Physics here on terra firma "narrow minded"?

Who says a V11 has to stay a V11? Bore it, stroke it, anyway you want to. Port it, twin plug it, put a hot cam in it and you got that magical 100HP atleast at the crank.

Dave. Even if you could achieve 100 hp at the crank on your own fantasy hyper-V-11, just how much would this help to alleviate a 270% power-to-weight deficit of the stock V-11 against a stock YZF-R1, for example? A showroom stock R1 STILL has at least 60-70 greater rwhp than this and ~100 lbs. less weight?!

Want over 100HP at the rear wheel:

Guareschi used a motor that you can mail order.

And most of the other parts can also be mail ordered.

Yah, keeping the spine frame, the bike might weigh a little more than Guareshci's, especially after the bracing, but it won't weigh a lot more.

A LITTLE MORE, Dave? How about a minimum of 100+ lbs. more, probably more like 120 lbs. more?!

Dave, do you intend to mail-order racing motor to build a non-V-11-based spine-frame Guzzi that will perform with Japanese hyperbikes off the showroom floor? If you do, I'm sure we'd all like to know about this and would love to follow your progress with keen attention. Do you know of anyone who's done this, or anything like it -- or will you be the first on the planet? Please advise.

 

Dave, is awareness of Earth gravity also a "narrow-minded" concept to you? How about awareness of the concept of mass? Is that also "narrow minded"?

 

After you replace the wheel spacers with titanium and the steel bearings with ceramic, and all the steel fasteners with dish-head titanium fasteners, wot kind of NET weight savings d'you expect to achieve, Dave?

 

Then, after bracing and gusseting the V-11 spine frame as you've proposed to alleviate some of the flexi-flyer behavior at extreme loading that would no doubt be encountered in chasing Japanese hyperbikes, how much weight d'you figure this would ADD to your V-11, Dave? With the weight loss plan above, d'you expect you'd wind up with a net gain or a net loss after bracing the frame? If the answer is a GAIN (this would be my expectation), wouldn't the weight of your "hyper V-11" be going in the WRONG DIRECTION from the claimed 424 lbs. of a MGS-01?

 

Now how d'you reckon that ADDING WEIGHT to the already corpulent V-11 would work with the extra power of a mail-order non-V-11 racing motor to help overcome the walloping 270% power-to-weight deficit of the stock V-11 against a YZF-R1, for example?

 

This would seem to beg the question, Dave -- In pursuit of your fantasy of a V-11-based Japanese hyperbike contender, why not achieve at least a 100 lb. advantage (not to mention a walloping cost advantage!) over "transforming" the V-11, by canning the V-11 altogether and simply start out with a MGS-01? The power-to-weight ratio of a MGS-01 based on claimed figures from Guzzi is .29, which is ONLY a ~25% power-to-weight deficit against the R-1's .4, which would seem to be a considerably less hysterical fantasy windmill to tilt against than the 270% power-to-weight deficit of a stock V-11. Still a less-than-feasible task -- yet as you pointed out, there MAY be some <1% riders who could actually overcome this on certain roads and/or tracks. . .

 

If "narrow minded" is wot you consider those who don't share your vivid hallucinations, Dave, then I reckon most of us on this planet are "narrow minded" indeed. . .

[Dan M]

Here we go...

 

Jaap,

 

Please rename this thread "global handling"

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

Wow, don't you find your motor gets hot in stop & go traffic situations? Or maybe in BC there is no such thing.

 

Sorry! I should have qualified that with "I only bump up the idle when I am riding agressively on winding roads". It can be quite uncomfortable for normal driving.

 

I only wish my fast idle lever would stay on when I use it but it only lasts a minute or so.

 

 

Are you confused, Dave, or simply insistent on living in a permanent dream world?

 

Aren't we all?

[dlaing]

Aren't we all?

Nothing wrong with dreaming.

No, I don't have the money to build my ultimate dream bike, but it is headed in the right direction.

Will it ever have the power to weight ratio of a 2007 BMW R1200S?

Probably not.

But if I could just fix the bloody oil leak, I could say that I have added enough silk that it runs much better than stock.

Here is a comparison of the ultimate Japanese stockers vs. the oh so silky Sow's Ear.

Of course I extrapolated the scale and I don't know if they are talking crank or rear wheel torque.

Source of dynos

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page...3149&Page=3

and

http://www.bigbore.it

[Guest ratchethack]

Nothing wrong with dreaming.

Dave. Please. Have you mistaken this Forum for Uncle Wiggly's Fairy Tales?

 

Have you been hanging out with Peter Pan, Twinkletoes, and Wacko Jacko again?

 

You've brought us a torque curve that shows ~55 lbs/ft. @ 2K RPM, ~65 lbs/ft. @ 3K RPM, and ~95 lbs./ft. @ 5.5K RPM!

 

We're talking about the V-11 motor here, Dave. That's the motor that you and I and nearly everyone on this board, including Zagato, who started this thread, is riding with -- and will, with probably no exceptions, likely continue to ride with as long as we own our current Guzzi's.

 

You've obviously either dreamed this up out o' thin air, or it could be a highly modified V-11 curve lifted up about 30 lbs./ft. from where the peak belongs -- on a different scale altogether. I don't see any attempt at extrapolating points to scale at all. It's a ridiculous fabrication and a mockery. Why not just bring in the torque curve of a smallblock Chevy?! Why not a 426 Chrysler Hemi?

 

Now if you actually intend to achieve something resembling the above curve with a V-11 , Dave, will you also be making use of turbocharging, supercharging, nitrous oxide, maybe anti-gravity ion propulsion technology, or dilithium crystals?!

 

The curve above shows slightly more torque at 3K RPM than a stock V-11 produces at it's torque PEAK! . . . Think about this, Dave -- all 4 Jap motors on the chart you posted not only meet -- or substantially beat -- the stock V-11 torque peak at 65 lbs./ft. @ 5.5K RPM -- but where the V-11 torque curve begins to drop off at 6K RPM, all 4 Jappers' torque curves carry this torque and much more (with a short dip each for the Yam and Kaw), UP, passing up through ~75 lbs./ft. on the way to get to 12K RPM -- that's a whopping 5.5K RPM SPREAD for each one -- ABOVE the V-11 torque peak!!!!!

 

Is the Jappers' torque spread something that you imagine is even remotely reasonable to expect a V-11 motor to compete with on the road -- while having to carry ~150 lb. more chassis weight?!

 

Getting back to the above fantasy torque curve, do you imagine this is practically achievable for most riders with V-11's on THIS planet? Do you mean to suggest that anything you can dream up, or that someone's claimed to've achieved with other motors is practically achievable with your V-11 for road use, Dave? Are there any actual credible examples of anything close to this that you know of -- anywhere? -- even ONE? Please do advise.

 

As I recall from a previous thread way back when, you were perfectly willing to believe -- without questioning it -- the claim by Eraldo Ferracci that 140 hp for a V-11 "is no problem" -- despite the lack of ANY evidence wotsoever that he'd ever done it, or anything close -- or that anyone else , for that matter, had ever done it, or anything close!!!!!! Is believing this wot passes for "open minded" in your book, Dave? In my book, this is known as "gullible".

 

Some people will buy ANYTHING they REALLY WANT TO BELIEVE IN without any evidence a-tall that it exists, won't they, Dave?

 

Tell you wot, Dave. I know some guys building a Bonneville Land Speed Record Guzzi for the Modified Partial Streamlined Pushrod Gas Class right now (not too far from me) who would happily give various hanging parts of their male anatomies to know how you might help them achieve the kind of a torque curve you posted above -- or anything close -- with their '87 LM SE 1000.

 

Now if you believe the above torque curve is possible for a V-11, and you could advise Bill R. & company at Team Subtle Crowbar how to build their motor (which is for most practical purposes the same motor without fuel injection), I'm sure you'd get some BIG credit helping them bring down the records they're chasing. . .

 

Now think about THIS, Dave -- Team Subtle Crowbar's motor only has to hold together for qualification and enough passes through the traps to hit 170 mph or above in each of 3 passes, and as far above that as they're able. After that, the motor can self-destruct on the last over-run. It can literally be designed to such a ragged, bleeding edge of extremes that they expect it to beat itself to death over only several dozen miles. So if you can convince Team Subtle Crowbar that you can achieve your fantasy curve and get the motor past the inspectors -- I reckon they'd be all ears!

 

Our Guzzis, on the other hand, (many of 'em anyway) need to be built to last many years on the road and to tolerate the abuse of traffic in most cases, some even many decades, and in some cases, (mine included) possibly longer than that. . .

 

Why Dave -- if you can help Team Subtle Crowbar achieve anything close to wot you seem to b'lieve you can do with your own V-11 (since evidently no one else on this planet has ever done it before!), you might well go down in history at the Bonneville Hall of Fame!

 

EDIT: Hey Dave -- how many o' the Jappers on your torque chart above d'you expect could make three 170+ mph passes at Bonneville with nothing more than a rear sprocket change -- straight off the showroom floor?

 

Is this important to you on the road? It isn't important to me in the slightest, but I'm pretty well aware of it -- but then, I reckon I have few false illusions about wot I'm riding based on nothing but wishful thinking . . .

[rocker59]

Greetings, I recently bought a '04 V11 Naked with a Power Commander and M4 exhausts and while the bike is certainly fun to ride (80 mph sweepers are great) I find it rather un-nerving to throw hard into tight corners due to its weight (570+ lbs) and its rather high seating position. I went on a ride last week with friends (speedo quit at 3.3K miles) and they left me in every corner (on their modern sport Japanese bikes)- I just never felt confident really laying it over. Is it just me? I even went wide in one forest road right hander and slowing all that weight down was an exercise in faith. I'm no speed freak and thought I was riding within my abilities but I get the feeling that with the V11's nod to touring (as in 'sport/tourer') I should forget any notions of keeping up with Kawasakis that are 130+ lbs lighter than me or do you find that with work you are able to really get a lot out of this machine in the twisties? I'm not complaining but I felt at times more confident on my '72 Honda 500/4. I'm a dedicated fan of all things mechanically Italian so I won't be discouraged very easily. Impressions of the steed? Regards, -zagato

 

Get some good, sticky tires and take the bike to a trackday. You'll be able to learn the bike's abilities (and yours) in relative safety.

 

Honestly, when I first got my Sport 1100 ten years ago I had trouble keeping up with others in the tight stuff. Now that I know the bike and what tires work for me, not many people can leave me in the tight twisties...

 

Riding is mostly a head game. You're saying a lot when you say, "I just never felt confident".

 

[zen_kick]

Track day is a good call. I can also *strongly* recommend looking into local motorcycle education classes. In WA state the Evergreen Safety Council holds a beginner class for getting your endorsement and offers an advanced rider safety class after one year of riding experience.

 

http://www.esc.org/Motorcycle%20Training-shell.htm

 

I took the advanced class - morning in classroom, afternoon on the course - after 10 years riding experience and drove away wondering how I ever managed to survive that decade. Using your own bike, the instructors walk you through an ever-increasing set of emergency situations - stopping in a turn, quick swerve, quick brake etc. - and give you feedback as you work through each exercise. The immediate feedback and he experience of practicing each of these manuvours on your own bike does wonders for your confidence back on the street.

 

I still hear the course marshall reminding me to keep my head up when quick braking or tight cornering. When I can talk my wife into signing up I'll probably go through it again on the Ballabio just to help with the muscle memory on that bike.

[badmotogoozer]

 

I took the advanced class - morning in classroom, afternoon on the course - after 10 years riding experience and drove away wondering how I ever managed to survive that decade. Using your own bike, the instructors walk you through an ever-increasing set of emergency situations - stopping in a turn, quick swerve, quick brake etc. - and give you feedback as you work through each exercise. The immediate feedback and he experience of practicing each of these manuvours on your own bike does wonders for your confidence back on the street.

 

 

except there's nothing stupid about it!

 

Exactly the same story here. Nothing made me a better rider than the advanced course I took - also 10 yrs into riding. Took it 2 months after getting my Guzzi. Learned more in that day about me, riding, and the Guzzi than I ever imagined I could. Of all the gobs of money I've spent on the Guzzi by far this was the best $400 I ever spent.

 

cheers,

 

Rj

[O2 V11]

Welcome Zagato, I can understand you concerns about the V11's handling in tight corners, your other mounts are completely different motorcycles to the V11. I found the same thing when I started riding mine, a rather top heavy machine that needed more inputs than just leaning into corners . This may seem silly but you need to learn to ride your V11 like I did. Understanding your suspension is a good start, on your favourite piece of road experiment with your suspension set up if you haven't already. By adjusting both front and rear from one end of their range to the other you can feel the difference in the bike's handling. You don't need to go and spend mega bucks on new suspension in order to have fun and feel confident on your bike at the same time .Once you have your suspension where it needs to be try changing your riding style to suit the V11's needs. Try more input from the bars, moving around on the bike when cornering, little bit of rear brake on tight corners etc. These bikes need to be ridden to get the best out of them. You never said how tight the corners were that you found intimidating. Slow corners for me, under about 30mph are a challenge with a combination of on-off throttle transition, drive train take-up etc not helping so don't feel bad about it at all. I agree a track day with expert tuition is the best place to start but if this is not possible get out there and have fun getting to know your bike.

Rob