engine oil temp sensor

[GuzziMoto]

I gotta ask, dlaing, in regards to ypur statement "I still suspect the sensor is getting too hot." what is the source of heat that is making the sensor too hot (for that matter what is your definition of "too hot").

If you have a 200 degree source of heat it is pretty hard to heat something up with that to a temp higher then 200 degrees. The sensor, if in good contact with the motor, will never (in normal use) be hotter then the motor. The motor is a large chunk of aluminum that contains the heat source. The sensor is a small bit of copper and brass that has no heat source and derives all of its heat from the motor. Therefore, it can not heat up to a temp higher then the motor. It will heat up and cool down entirely based on the temp of the motor.

Also, I submit that the fact that someones Guzzi does not run quite right with the temp sensor giving a good reading of the engine temp and if they fudge that reading to make it read lower does not mean whatsoever that the reason the bike does not run right is because of the engine temp sensor. The ETS is just an input that the ECU uses to establish outputs. Something is making the bike run lean at idle and fudging the ETS reading to a lower value so that the ECU adds more fuel is correcting the symptom not the problem.

Adding a heat sink to a temp sensor does not in any way make the sensor read more accurately, nor does insulating the sensor from the heat source in any way.

If that is what anybody wants to do, fine. I don't care. But when they veil it in scientific dogma and babble, and they would completely rip someone else a new one for doing the same in another situation, I find it humerous at the least and possibly offensive.

This has become a thread about rigging a ETS to read lower then it should to trick the ECU into adding more fuel to make up for something else not being right. It has been humerous but don't pretend it is anything of serious value.

 

Edit; Page 35, WOOOOHOOO. We're getting there.

[Greg Field]

5 more pages. And we need to raise the BQ a few more points, too. Who'll take the stage?

[Guest ratchethack]

SPECIAL NOTE:

 

Any introduction of new ideas is likely to be challenged. Fair enough, well expected, and always welcomed by Yours Truly as previously invited – wherever and whenever motivated by sincere interest, regardless of knowledge or experience. Everything anyone posts might properly be assumed to be wrong unless or until credible evidence indicates otherwise.

 

But isn’t it pretty obvious that when challenging something that’s backed by actual credible evidence as clearly presented, there’s an obligation to present contrary evidence of equal or better credibility with that challenge, rather than flinging empty accusations around without anything to back them up? Isn’t it equally obvious that persistent obsession with entirely unrelated, insignificant, irrelevant, and useless data and information doesn’t amount to any challenge wotsoever??

 

Of course a consensus of fools will always believe themselves superior by virtue of being a party to any group of more than one, whilst oblivious to reality as supported by the facts. Such are the ground rules of GROUPTHINK. But who knew the SHORT BUS would be double-parked out front THIS LONG?! Certainly not I.

 

As well expected (and also well documented previously) we've had the garden-variety less than sincerely motivated barrage of ridicule, baseless false accusations, and raw, unmitigated ignorance from those without any experience with, knowledge of, nor sincere interest in what they’re challenging. I note again that these are typically contributions characterized by the “default” insurmountable inability/unwillingness to actually read or comprehend what they’re responding to.

 

It seems the more credible the idea, and the better backed by real-world evidence and knowledge from actual road testing the new information has been, the higher pitched the squeals of protest have become, and the wilder the empty accusations of lunacy and dementia. The loudest and most persistent protests seem to come from those who believe they're somehow being threatened here. They seem to believe they possess superior specific knowledge and experience, but by any objective observation, each and every one has consistently demonstrated the complete absence thereof in this thread. The plain truth of this is as clear and obvious as it can be by the record.

 

Though always expected, much of what has followed my first update on my experiments here has not failed to astound (again) -- yes, even though I have come to expect exactly what has followed. My only surprise going forward will be if more of the same doesn’t follow this post on an accelerating basis.

 

So once again, by all means, let the thudding stupidity of those who’re hopelessly mired in ignorance -- and dedicated to it whenever confronting that which is beyond their comprehension (deliberate or otherwise) -- be displayed as spectacularly henceforth as it has been here to date. My posts in this thread seem to really get to a select few. Well, I hope so, anyway. Best continue the traditional policy of flushing out idiocy and exposing it on a regular basis. Winter seems to be the customary season to stir things up just to see what might've been coagulating at the bottom of the cesspool all year. . .

 

The saddest and most unfortunate part of all the acrimony here has been the certainty that many with sincere interest in the topic at hand, with lots of real knowledge and value to offer here, have no stomach for the kind of childishly inane braying abuse by the usual suspect donkeys that has been so profoundly demonstrated here of late. And who could blame them? Though I fully understand, there’s nothing so unusual about anything here. The usual feeding frenzy behavior by the Great Unwashed is as common as dirt on any public Forum. I reckon it’s been a real shame though, only in the sense that many worthwhile contributions are no doubt lost to silence by the sheer magnitude of senseless intimidation coming from those with nothing of value to contribute.

 

Speaking for myself, however, being a student of human behavior, with all it’s follies and foibles, I’ve found that observing the fascinating phenomenon of perpetual voluntary displays of idiocy here has been so clearly self-evident, that the steady stream of stupidity professed in ignorance of it’s own hypocrisy, has itself been nearly as interesting as advancing my knowledge of anything that can improve the Guzzi riding experience. The parade of truly demented Dark Age mindsets and primitive mentalities that have been disgorged here as if from some ancient tomb has been an amazing thing to behold. I've been learning on two fronts here while many others don't seem to be gaining ground on any front, despite the obvious repeated effort of posting progressive absurdities.

 

As far as I’m concerned, the greater the wailing and whimpering of protest and the more irrational the lashing out with baseless accusations, the more encouraging the feedback. Public displays of stupidity are always ultimately self-limiting behaviors, though it seems this Forum isn't nearly a large enough container to capture it all, and we'll never see the end of it. But I figure that without the usual cacophony of thoughtless knee-jerk protests, there’s probably not much challenge to the orthodoxy of baseless and mindless ridicule, and therefore not much to be gained.

 

For those with sincere interest in the topic at hand (I know for a fact that there are at least several) -- Never fear! If this thread gets shut down, I’ll start a new one, and the fools with nothing to contribute but idiocy and abuse can continue as above all over again.

 

For all those without any sincere interest in the topic at hand who're somehow habitually compelled to post without contributing anything of value, HINT: No need to compose new posts. Going forward, you can simply copy and paste what you’ve already posted here, and your um, “objectives” will be equally well served.

 

EVER ONWARD!

 

As a guy named Arlo once famously observed, "I'm not proud -- or tired."

 

I don’t know what special magic there may be in reaching 40 pages, but unless this gets shut down or turns into a magic carriage to another place and time, I reckon 60 pages will have more of wotever magical properties we'll have at 40 by half again, and with what I have in mind, it won’t take much of a stretch to get to well beyond 60. But who's counting? Oh yeah -- at least one hereabouts is, and keeping a daily tally at that. . .

 

Substantial update to follow (Part XIV).

[Motomonster]

Puh-leez. You were too stupid to get a proper map for your Powercommander and so you hooked up a knob to your bike to fiddle with resistance. This seems backwards to me, but whatever, you're having fun. In any case, it does not make you Copernicus.

 

If consensus is that the sun revolves around the earth and you say the earth revolves around the sun, then you are a genius.

 

If consensus is that the earth revolves around the sun and you say otherwise, then you are a moron.

[Greg Field]

Ask and ye shall receive.

 

I think sun spot activity needs to be fed into the equation, since I can't see another means by which the sensor can get hotter than that which it is trying to get the temp of (the head).

[Guzzi2Go]

Puh-leez. You were too stupid to get a proper map for your Powercommander and so you hooked up a knob to your bike to fiddle with resistance. This seems backwards to me, but whatever, you're having fun. In any case, it does not make you Copernicus.

...

 

Yet he may get burned!

 

Of course, not in such a dramatic way as Copernicus did. Still ratchet's fingers may itch (handling hot sensor).

 

And yes, 40 will not do. It has to be 42.

[GuzziMoto]

First off, I specifically directed my questions (yes, there were questions in my post) at dlaing and not you because I knew you would go on and on about this and that without actually answering the questions. Maybe dlaing will.

And second, the fact that you seem to think the ETS will get hotter then the thing that heats it up (the motor) and I do not does not make you a genius. In fact some might say it makes you a bit less.

Yes, there is a lot of miss information and false assumptions in this thread. I hope others can tell the difference between good info and bad atleast as well as I can.

Do what you will in regards to tricking your ECU, but how fast you can type is not a reflection of your I.Q..

[badmotogoozer]

Puh-leez. -snip-

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Skeeve]

This has become a thread about rigging a ETS to read lower then it should to trick the ECU into adding more fuel to make up for something else not being right. It has been humerous but don't pretend it is anything of serious value.

 

Humorous or humourous; "humerous" just makes me want to sing ".the arm bone is connected to the shoulder bone..." & it all goes downhill from there!..

 

As for the part about tricking the ECU, it's important for people who don't want to shell out the $ for a Power Commander because the factory map Guzzi supplied is defective, as it keeps subtracting fuel the hotter the motor gets, instead of adding fuel for cooling once the temperature exceeds a certain level.

 

I'm enjoying the banter, even if some of you seem irritated by the ongoing attempt to find a sub-$100 solution, albeit partial, to the v11s' imperfect fueling at environmental temperature extremes...

[gstallons]

I think we were in left field a LONG time ago.

[dlaing]

I gotta ask, dlaing, in regards to ypur statement "I still suspect the sensor is getting too hot." what is the source of heat that is making the sensor too hot (for that matter what is your definition of "too hot").

If you have a 200 degree source of heat it is pretty hard to heat something up with that to a temp higher then 200 degrees. The sensor, if in good contact with the motor, will never (in normal use) be hotter then the motor. The motor is a large chunk of aluminum that contains the heat source. The sensor is a small bit of copper and brass that has no heat source and derives all of its heat from the motor. Therefore, it can not heat up to a temp higher then the motor. It will heat up and cool down entirely based on the temp of the motor.

Also, I submit that the fact that someones Guzzi does not run quite right with the temp sensor giving a good reading of the engine temp and if they fudge that reading to make it read lower does not mean whatsoever that the reason the bike does not run right is because of the engine temp sensor. The ETS is just an input that the ECU uses to establish outputs. Something is making the bike run lean at idle and fudging the ETS reading to a lower value so that the ECU adds more fuel is correcting the symptom not the problem.

Adding a heat sink to a temp sensor does not in any way make the sensor read more accurately, nor does insulating the sensor from the heat source in any way.

If that is what anybody wants to do, fine. I don't care. But when they veil it in scientific dogma and babble, and they would completely rip someone else a new one for doing the same in another situation, I find it humerous at the least and possibly offensive.

This has become a thread about rigging a ETS to read lower then it should to trick the ECU into adding more fuel to make up for something else not being right. It has been humerous but don't pretend it is anything of serious value.

 

Edit; Page 35, WOOOOHOOO. We're getting there.

I disagree and think it is of value. Kinda sad though that it took 35 pages to get this far.

Potentially the sensor MIGHT get hotter than the engine when the engine is off, possibly creating symptoms similar to vapor lock.

My sensor got too hot when I added solder as a conductor within the brass adapter, but I don't know if it was too hot for the map, or too hot for the sensor. The sensor's accuracy range is spec'd to 125C. If it goes above that, and I suspect it does, then it is Too Hot.

Making it run cooler has side-effects.

We have barely even touched on what the real operating temperature is.

Where is Docc with his infrared temp reading gun?

When is ratchet gonna create his own bakelite mold?

[raz]

- 42

...

- What was the question?

- What do you get if you multiply six by nine?

That was a bait, right?

[Dan M]

I think sun spot activity needs to be fed into the equation, since I can't see another means by which the sensor can get hotter than that which it is trying to get the temp of (the head).

 

Perhaps one of these guys filled the gap with media from a catalytic converter.

Pretty much everything else has been tried.

[Guzzi2Go]

That was a bait, right?

Hook, line and sinker...

[GuzziMoto]

I disagree and think it is of value. Kinda sad though that it took 35 pages to get this far.

Potentially the sensor MIGHT get hotter than the engine when the engine is off, possibly creating symptoms similar to vapor lock.

My sensor got too hot when I added solder as a conductor within the brass adapter, but I don't know if it was too hot for the map, or too hot for the sensor. The sensor's accuracy range is spec'd to 125C. If it goes above that, and I suspect it does, then it is Too Hot.

Making it run cooler has side-effects.

We have barely even touched on what the real operating temperature is.

Where is Docc with his infrared temp reading gun?

When is ratchet gonna create his own bakelite mold?

And what is going to provide the heat to raise the temp of the sensor above the temp of the engine? It does not matter how long you leave something in a 200 degree oven, it will NEVER get above 200 degrees. It will not happen.

 

This thread would have serious value if people actually measured things like what the sensor reads instead of speculating on why the ETS reads higher then the actual engine temp with out any evidence that it does.

Not to mention that above a certain temp it does not matter anymore. The ECU only responds to temps up to a certain point and above that it does not matter. The sensors range is not "spec'd to 125C", that is just what the table covers. Thermistors have a large range that they respond to, and while the sensor probably isn't as accurate as you go further and further past 100 degrees C it does likely keep going for a while. Probably long past the point where the ECU stops caring.

Yes, fudging the ETS can alter the way the bike runs, so can fudging the TPS or the IAT sensor. That does not mean it is the right thing to do. But if you do wish to do so, go ahead. Just don't kid yourself or anybody else that it is anything other then a bodge.