GuzziMoto Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Sorry, if I had any sense I would just walk away, but I'm not seeing the difference between these two concepts. Please enlighten me. RH-"the more optimal solution would be to make a direct thermal contact between the holder and sensor and THEN make a new map based on a more accurate temp sensor read...... I don't recall reading an account on this Forum of anyone who's done this. " Me-"If your asking if anyones improved the response of the sensor (with thermal paste, brass holder, whatever), I'm sure a few have. I know I have, ..........Improving the response of your head temp sensor as Pete suggested and then tuning the bike to get maximum benefit out of it is the best solution in my opinion." What is the difference between your "direct thermal contact" with "a new map based on a more accurate temp sensor read" and the rest of us improving sensor accuracy with thermal paste, a brass holder, whatever, and then tuning the injection to get maximum benefit out of it?
Motomonster Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Yeah. I did that. It works, mostly. Assuming you aren't discounting the use of a Powercommander III. I had an advanced map (each cylinder mapped separately) made for: opened airbox (belled intake and three teardrops on top), stock filter, Stucchi crossover, Mistral cans, Raceco valve specs, brass fitting with thermal paste, and (if it matters) header wrap and a fast throttle cam. I don't have any extra insulation tape on the brass fitting. Also, MI reset my timing. Before we started, the left cylinder was running far leaner than the right, which wasn't bad with the downloded map from Dynojet. Plus I was getting detonation on the left cylinder. To mitigate this, I ran a bottle of Techron through in two tankfuls in two days and this helped, a lot actually. With the new map: at start-up and until the engine warms to temp, the bike runs well. There is slight rough running on decel, especially between 4-5K, but no significant loss of power. If I crank the throttle quickly from idle there is a split second pop at around 3K, which I take to be a low fuel spot. There is another one at just below 7K. There is no detonation anywhere. Once the bike is fully warmed, the map is flawless. Power delivery is quick and smooth on accel and there is no roughness on decel. I can pin the throttle and go from 3K to redline with no pops, power dips, detonation or otherwise awkward spots, up hill -- in the first three gears at least. The best way I can describe it is like this: cold, the engine feels a bit like a fast Harley Sportster, warm, it feels a bit like a slow Ducati Monster. For those that care: 2000 V11 Sport Max hp: 83 between 7-8K Max Torque: 65 between 5.5-6K The lines cross at around 5.3K
GuzziMoto Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Motomonster, any chance you will post your map in the map section?
Motomonster Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I'll try. But keep in mind, my left cylinder was very lean, so it may not work for very many other bikes. This is my second experience with a powercommander on a Guzzi and I can say this: in both cases, I simply could not get a non-bike-specific map to work to my satisfaction. A few were close, but not close enough for my tastes. Perhaps I am more anal than others, I dunno. I do know that in both cases a bike-specific map made these "ditch pumps" run like a dream, so I highly recommend getting one. Assuming you can find someone good to make it. I've had good luck with the small, independent shops that mostly prep race bikes.
Guest ratchethack Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Sorry, if I had any sense I would just walk away, but I'm not seeing the difference between these two concepts. Please enlighten me. There are those who can't, and then there are those who simply won't be enlightened. Many others simply lack any sense, as you've noted. Is everyone around here suffering from reading comprehension deficit disorder?? RH-"the more optimal solution would be to make a direct thermal contact between the holder and sensor and THEN make a new map based on a more accurate temp sensor read...... I don't recall reading an account on this Forum of anyone who's done this. " Me-"If your asking if anyones improved the response of the sensor (with thermal paste, brass holder, whatever), I'm sure a few have. I know I have, ..........Improving the response of your head temp sensor as Pete suggested and then tuning the bike to get maximum benefit out of it is the best solution in my opinion." What is the difference between your "direct thermal contact" with "a new map based on a more accurate temp sensor read" and the rest of us improving sensor accuracy with thermal paste, a brass holder, whatever, and then tuning the injection to get maximum benefit out of it? Assuming you mean a custom re-map by "tuning the injection" -- No difference a-tall, GMoto. But why you'd attempt to answer a question I haven't asked, ignore the question I DID ask, and then follow that with an opinion that I'd already expressed several times and in several different ways previously (as if to correct me) is a bit of a mystery, though I suspect I know the answer: You're not paying much of any attention to what you're responding to. I've got more experimenting to do here before I'm done, and I believe others may actually be interested enough to pay enough attention not to require so much repetition. I can't be bothered with it anymore, so if you sense that I'm ignoring your posts going forward, you're probably right.
Motomonster Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Watching you try to figure something out is like watching a man at sea try to fix a leak by taking his boat completely apart.
Guest ratchethack Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Thanks for your PM replies, John. I do b'lieve I know exactly wot you meant when you replied to Pete earlier in this thread: . . .seems that people who actually think about things and do experiments to achieve a desired out come are often the brunt of someone's ire. I really appreciate the way you press on while I won't even tell most people about some of the things I've done because I would have to argue some pretty basic stuff and teach class and they still scoff and won't believe me, I just don't have the drive to do that anymore and admire that you do and hope you will continue, it inspires me. The donkeys do bray and whine somethin' awful when they get confused, don't they?
Tom M Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Yeah. I did that. It works, mostly. Assuming you aren't discounting the use of a Powercommander III. I had an advanced map (each cylinder mapped separately) made for: opened airbox (belled intake and three teardrops on top), stock filter, Stucchi crossover, Mistral cans, Raceco valve specs, brass fitting with thermal paste, and (if it matters) header wrap and a fast throttle cam. I don't have any extra insulation tape on the brass fitting. Also, MI reset my timing. Before we started, the left cylinder was running far leaner than the right, which wasn't bad with the downloded map from Dynojet. Plus I was getting detonation on the left cylinder. To mitigate this, I ran a bottle of Techron through in two tankfuls in two days and this helped, a lot actually. With the new map: at start-up and until the engine warms to temp, the bike runs well. There is slight rough running on decel, especially between 4-5K, but no significant loss of power. If I crank the throttle quickly from idle there is a split second pop at around 3K, which I take to be a low fuel spot. There is another one at just below 7K. There is no detonation anywhere. Once the bike is fully warmed, the map is flawless. Power delivery is quick and smooth on accel and there is no roughness on decel. I can pin the throttle and go from 3K to redline with no pops, power dips, detonation or otherwise awkward spots, up hill -- in the first three gears at least. The best way I can describe it is like this: cold, the engine feels a bit like a fast Harley Sportster, warm, it feels a bit like a slow Ducati Monster. For those that care: 2000 V11 Sport Max hp: 83 between 7-8K Max Torque: 65 between 5.5-6K The lines cross at around 5.3K Good stuff Moto. I've been fighting a detonation problem for a while so I'm very interested in your results. If you don't mind my asking...how did you know the left cylinder was lean? By spark plug reading or did you probe the left header? Did you end up with a map that's significantly richer for the left cylinder? And finally, do you know how MI adjusted your timing? I didn't know there was any way to adjust that. PS Ratch, I appreciate your experiments.
Motomonster Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Good stuff Moto. I've been fighting a detonation problem for a while so I'm very interested in your results. If you don't mind my asking...how did you know the left cylinder was lean? By spark plug reading or did you probe the left header? Did you end up with a map that's significantly richer for the left cylinder? And finally, do you know how MI adjusted your timing? I didn't know there was any way to adjust that. PS Ratch, I appreciate your experiments. Tom, I had an inkling my left was lean because that was the side where I got detonation. Also, when I wrapped the headers, the left side was quite a bit darker after the first ride. The dyno confirmed this. I have yet to pull the map from the PC to my computer, but I was given to understand that the left side fuel correction is greater. I'll check tonight. I'll also see if I can get the timing info from MI. They did it while they adjusted my TPS.
raz Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Motomonster, do you know, or think, your wrapping did any good for performance? I'm planning on wrapping my headers - mostly, if not solely, for the hot-rod look (well if it turns out ugly I'll just remove it again). It's cheap and it's not chrome - suits me fine. I did some heavy googling and most seem to think it will do very little for a N/A engine.
felix42o Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Motomonster, do you know, or think, your wrapping did any good for performance? I'm planning on wrapping my headers - mostly, if not solely, for the hot-rod look (well if it turns out ugly I'll just remove it again).It's cheap and it's not chrome - suits me fine. I did some heavy googling and most seem to think it will do very little for a N/A engine. I did it w/ mine after a powdercoating experiment didn't work, and it looks great. And while I doubt it helps at all it can't hurt. I figured if it didn't last (exposure to the elements) I'd just remove it, but that was two years ago and it's no worse for the wear. No fraying or anything, other than where the kickstand was rubbing against it near the x-over. With that now dealt with, I have a new roll of wrap and am going to go the same route.
badmotogoozer Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Expect higher head temps when you wrap your headers. Much of the Ex. valve cooling comes from the header's ability ti sink heat away. Wrapping insulates from the air convection over the header pipes. Don't know if this would be an issue with the Guzzi lump...
Motomonster Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 On wrapping. Yes, I think it helps. I only wrapped the front portion, which is the way I noticed it done on one of Dr. John's bikes. There's a pic in Falloon's Guzzi Story. I suspect Greg thinks I'm full of it, so maybe he'll add it to the long list of stuff to ask him. On my previous Guzzi (Stone), I had the pipes ceramic coated. I didn't expect much of an improvement but I was surprised by the way it changed the feel of the bike. Basically, in my experience, the most noticeable difference is the engine is a little smoother and spins up faster. So, I wrapped the V11 and found much the same effect. I know others claim about a 5hp increase, but I can't say -- it seems excessive to me. But the smoothness is definitely there. I had my dyno done after the wrap, so I can't claim to have done any rigorous, extensive testing, if that's what you're after. But I asked the mechanic who performed the dyno and he said that, in general, wrapping and coating provides real improvements, but not necessarily for all bikes. He did say he sent out a lot of headers to be coated for his racing customers, though. As for head temps: my understanding is that since it helps the exhaust exit faster, it reduces temps, but I could be wrong. I monitored a few things with a laser temp sensor during they dyno and nothing seemed excessive. In any case, in the PNW, that is not likely to be an issue. Here's a pic I found on the net:
Motomonster Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 Okay, I sent my PCIII map to Jaap, so you guys can check it out when it's posted. But yes, the left side is getting way more fuel than the right. I'd be curious to know why there's an imbalance. Anyway, here's a pic of my headers as well. The black is a high temp silicone spray that helps keep out the moisture and grime:
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