mark.gilmore Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 Thanks, Mark. I corresponded with Cliff. I'm not prepared to buy the replacement ECU in order to use the Optimizer. It runs well into the $hundreds. I do appreciate the lead, though. Maybe I'll go for it later. No worries mate,When you do get one u wont be sorry,cause there isn't much it can't do if u get the full monty.Much more than anything I've seen.
Ryland3210 Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 No worries mate,When you do get one u wont be sorry,cause there isn't much it can't do if u get the full monty.Much more than anything I've seen. It does look attractive, and your personal experience means a lot. Check out the thread "Which dynojet .... " to see what state of total confusion I've reached. Perhaps you can contribute to it!
NPS Posted December 22, 2007 Posted December 22, 2007 Okay folks. Can someone summarise this thread as at first it seems that conductive paste to increase the heat transfer and so the temperature was a good idea and had beneficial results. Others have said that the weak mixture result causes poping on decal. Not sure where to go with this. I would like better fuel efficiency but not at the expense of poor running. I have a Breva with the plastic thing. I have a tube of silver oxide paste ready and waiting. I guess I can only try it. What are the conclusions so far? Many thanks NPS
Ryland3210 Posted December 23, 2007 Posted December 23, 2007 Okay folks. Can someone summarise this thread as at first it seems that conductive paste to increase the heat transfer and so the temperature was a good idea and had beneficial results. Others have said that the weak mixture result causes poping on decal. Not sure where to go with this. I would like better fuel efficiency but not at the expense of poor running. I have a Breva with the plastic thing. I have a tube of silver oxide paste ready and waiting. I guess I can only try it. What are the conclusions so far? Many thanks NPS On balance, in my opinion, providing the ECU with a more accurate input of temperature, which I believe adding conductive paste does, is the way to go. I used the high copper content anti-seize compound on mine. By the way, be prepared for breaking the plastic holder when attempting to remove it. I personally bought the brass holder ahead of time. Sure enough, the plastic holder disintegrated upon removal, and my bike only had about 3,000 miles on it at the time.
Skeeve Posted December 23, 2007 Posted December 23, 2007 Okay folks. Can someone summarise this thread as at first it seems that conductive paste to increase the heat transfer and so the temperature was a good idea and had beneficial results. Others have said that the weak mixture result causes poping on decal. Not sure where to go with this. I would like better fuel efficiency but not at the expense of poor running. I have a Breva with the plastic thing. I have a tube of silver oxide paste ready and waiting. I guess I can only try it. What are the conclusions so far? Many thanks NPS I'm not certain you want to use the silver oxide [Arctic Silver?] paste: I believe the point of that stuff is a dielectric w/ adequate heat transfer properties, whereas the temp sensor bung in a Guzzi head can ground out thru the head if it wants w/o hurting anything, so common ol' everyday copper anti-seize will work [xfer heat] better. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong? Thanx...
Ryland3210 Posted December 23, 2007 Posted December 23, 2007 I'm not certain you want to use the silver oxide [Arctic Silver?] paste: I believe the point of that stuff is a dielectric w/ adequate heat transfer properties, whereas the temp sensor bung in a Guzzi head can ground out thru the head if it wants w/o hurting anything, so common ol' everyday copper anti-seize will work [xfer heat] better. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong? Thanx... You have my vote.
pete roper Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 I'm not certain you want to use the silver oxide [Arctic Silver?] paste: I believe the point of that stuff is a dielectric w/ adequate heat transfer properties, whereas the temp sensor bung in a Guzzi head can ground out thru the head if it wants w/o hurting anything, so common ol' everyday copper anti-seize will work [xfer heat] better. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong? Thanx... The sensor doesn't ground through the head. The black wire from it is the earth and it grounds in the ECU. I'm not saying that it is neccessarily a wonderful cure-all but I do know that on any of the models which use the plug-in-head ETS in a very large majority of cases when I plug in my Axone it tells me that I'm getting a manifestly inaccurate temeprature reading. Assuming that the ECU uses the temperature reading to modify the mapping to suit, (And a lower percieved temperature will result in the ECU thinking the egine is cold and therefore enrichening the mixture.) the incorrect signal from the ETS will make for worse fuel ecconomy and less efficient running. This seems to be backed up by the simple method of examining plug colour. The lower the temperature reading percieved by the Axone the darker the plugs. Also the real fuel swillers are also the ones with the lowest temperature reading. My observation and experience tells me that things are greatly improved by the addition of some form of thermal conductor betwixt head and ETS. If, after the application of the conductor the mixture is too lean at idle then it is likely that you will get popping in the exhaust on over-run. This is caused simply by the mixture not being combustible in the combustion chamber and the unburnt fuel then ignites in the exhaust after it has been expelled on the exhaust stroke. While annoying it is HARMLESS. It is also possible to alter the idle fuel trim if you have an Axone and I think with the Technoresearch software, (But I'm willing to be corrected one that.). To go the whole banana you really need to swap to something like Cliff's ECU, a Tuneboy or find someone who is profficient at the setting up of power Commanders or what have you but in my experience you can make any 15M equipped bike that hasn't been too highly modified run perfectly acceptably with the stock 'pooter and a bit of judicious tweaking. Part of that tweaking is ensuring the the ECU is recieving the correct signals to start off with!!!! I can understand that everyone wants their bikes to run the very best they can but to my mind making the sort of modifications that will result in SUBSTANTIAL increases in power, the sort that will require radical re-mapping, are somewhat self defeating. You're NOT going to build a 998 beater out of an old air cooled, shaft drive twin! So if it isn't the bike you want? Why buy one? There are a zillion other machines that offer higher performance on all levels without trying. Usually at a fraction of the cost of seriously tuning a Guzzi! This isn't to say that people shouldn't try and tune their V11's to buggery! Just that they should go into it with heir eyes wide open and in the knowledge that it will be costly, comparatively complicated, engine life, (Along with other componentry life.) will be foreshortened and the results may disappointing if one is expecting too much. Happy X-mass Pete
Guest NotRight Posted January 2, 2008 Posted January 2, 2008 The sensor doesn't ground through the head. The black wire from it is the earth and it grounds in the ECU. I'm not saying that it is neccessarily a wonderful cure-all but I do know that on any of the models which use the plug-in-head ETS in a very large majority of cases when I plug in my Axone it tells me that I'm getting a manifestly inaccurate temeprature reading. Assuming that the ECU uses the temperature reading to modify the mapping to suit, (And a lower percieved temperature will result in the ECU thinking the egine is cold and therefore enrichening the mixture.) the incorrect signal from the ETS will make for worse fuel ecconomy and less efficient running. This seems to be backed up by the simple method of examining plug colour. The lower the temperature reading percieved by the Axone the darker the plugs. Also the real fuel swillers are also the ones with the lowest temperature reading. My observation and experience tells me that things are greatly improved by the addition of some form of thermal conductor betwixt head and ETS. If, after the application of the conductor the mixture is too lean at idle then it is likely that you will get popping in the exhaust on over-run. This is caused simply by the mixture not being combustible in the combustion chamber and the unburnt fuel then ignites in the exhaust after it has been expelled on the exhaust stroke. While annoying it is HARMLESS. It is also possible to alter the idle fuel trim if you have an Axone and I think with the Technoresearch software, (But I'm willing to be corrected one that.). To go the whole banana you really need to swap to something like Cliff's ECU, a Tuneboy or find someone who is profficient at the setting up of power Commanders or what have you but in my experience you can make any 15M equipped bike that hasn't been too highly modified run perfectly acceptably with the stock 'pooter and a bit of judicious tweaking. Part of that tweaking is ensuring the the ECU is recieving the correct signals to start off with!!!! I can understand that everyone wants their bikes to run the very best they can but to my mind making the sort of modifications that will result in SUBSTANTIAL increases in power, the sort that will require radical re-mapping, are somewhat self defeating. You're NOT going to build a 998 beater out of an old air cooled, shaft drive twin! So if it isn't the bike you want? Why buy one? There are a zillion other machines that offer higher performance on all levels without trying. Usually at a fraction of the cost of seriously tuning a Guzzi! This isn't to say that people shouldn't try and tune their V11's to buggery! Just that they should go into it with heir eyes wide open and in the knowledge that it will be costly, comparatively complicated, engine life, (Along with other componentry life.) will be foreshortened and the results may disappointing if one is expecting too much. Happy X-mass Pete Also, I might trust the bike and have an easier time blocking out guzzichondria if I knew I replaced the "cost reduced" plastic cheapo with the brass. I'm still bugged that I had a serious short happen on a 300 mile trip. Didn't leave me stranded but no fun having no rear brake light. This is where I tend to see the reason behind those that are less enthused about Guzzi. I love their machines. I don't need more power or wizz bangery. But I would like not to face potential surprises or invest a lot in re-working the weak spots. I'm fascinated by the concept of owning a Norge but it too seems to need set up (wtf? another weak spring?). Leans me in the direction of just getting the cafe sport sorted and not buying a new one. If anyone is really uptight about the sensor they could run a thermocouple in the head near the sensor and compare temps and compare before and after thermal compound addition. Maybe I should do it this spring. (get a thin sheathed thermocouple and drill a hole only just big enough, insert thermocouple and then peen hole shut -- how we do it in aluminum car engine instrumenting). Personally, I think the sensor might be the cause of a lot of mystery problems that likely have soured at least one person on owning a guzzi. Do the newest models still use this design? I don't need to mislead anyone. I just know how it works on the inside of smaller internal combustion engine manufacturers. I bet the sensor had minimal validation in the lab and on test bikes. I now do more work on "cost reduction" and its sad in a way. The last of true engineering is passing us now - a few exceptions of course but soon the west won't know how to design much at all let alone tool up for it. Its just mind boggling how the folks with non-engineering backgrounds are running it all. To me they're running us into the ground. Oops sorry for the off topic. Hard not to share when you know real examples - like the Indian supplier who boasted they make cylinderheads for Europe and the reality is Peugot just shipped the whole line over there and showed them how to turn it on. No surprise when a simple water pump casting now has a 90% scrap rate from them. No safety standards, children in the foundry, flim flam quotations. I'm getting older and more crotchety everyday. The man with a slide ruler and common sense is forgotten.
dlaing Posted January 2, 2008 Posted January 2, 2008 I'm not certain you want to use the silver oxide [Arctic Silver?] paste: I believe the point of that stuff is a dielectric w/ adequate heat transfer properties, whereas the temp sensor bung in a Guzzi head can ground out thru the head if it wants w/o hurting anything, so common ol' everyday copper anti-seize will work [xfer heat] better. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong? Thanx... I don't know what this silver oxide paste is, but Arctic Silver is designed as a thermal conductor. The electrical conductivity is supressed so as not to short out the circuits, but the primary design is heat conductivity. Electrical conductivity is not relevant. http://www.arcticsilver.com/as5.htm To make in non-conductive some thermal properties may have been slightly compromised, but I would not worry about it. Copper anti-seize will do the trick for less money. Determining if it works better or worse is anyone's guess. I suppose trial and error might find the perfect compound to enhance the stock mapping.
dlaing Posted January 2, 2008 Posted January 2, 2008 The man with a slide ruler and common sense is forgotten. Some of these newer bikes scare me with there closed loop sensor dependency and fly by wire daring. I hope Guzzi takes the higher road. The new bikes have improved the oil sump and feel smoother, which is probably a good thing But adding on board computers and replacing the wire harness with data cables makes me uneasy. Maybe if the onboard computer could tell you when your sensor is faulty, it would be valuable, but that is not likely to work well as you generally need a meter to test a meter.
Skeeve Posted January 2, 2008 Posted January 2, 2008 I don't know what this silver oxide paste is, but Arctic Silver is designed as a thermal conductor. The electrical conductivity is supressed so as not to short out the circuits, but the primary design is heat conductivity. Electrical conductivity is not relevant.http://www.arcticsilver.com/as5.htm To make in non-conductive some thermal properties may have been slightly compromised, but I would not worry about it. Copper anti-seize will do the trick for less money. Determining if it works better or worse is anyone's guess. I suppose trial and error might find the perfect compound to enhance the stock mapping. Arctic Silver [& other heat-sink pastes for use w/ computers] are intended for thermal xfer, absolutely. But, that's only after they're determined to be (nominal) electrical insulators. Of course, that's a lot easier in the Ride on! [1] In direct proportion, mostly. Aluminum
Guest NotRight Posted January 3, 2008 Posted January 3, 2008 Can you imagine the guy beaming with excitement in 2045 AD when he finds that cool 2003 BMW or Cadillac or Citroen in a barn. And then the crinkled forhead and frown in 2051 as he attempts one more time to rebuild the torched electronics and wiring harness with only a half arsed service manual and a screaming angry wife in the kitchen. " I told you so, but you wouldn't listen" "Why don't you go throw out more of last season's must have $200 shoes babe and leave me be" ....... massive VB consumption and visitation by the constable..... I think he or she will wonder who's brilliant idea it was to have interactive displays and gee-wizmos when the 1968 Charger rolls up next on the auction block for inspection. Cast iron dash, manual vents, and 440 cubic inches of carbureted power. I had one. You pop the hood (bonnet) and you could fit extra luggage underneath! Today you need a small chimp or intelligent crow to get underneath all the plumbing and trim covers. I could sleep comfortably on the back seat in a corn field with my girlfriend by my side. A rolling apartment or rv it was. {cheers to the Australian Charger, I wanted one so badly when I lived there. There was a tv show on at the time with a detective that drove one too to drive the lust - maybe I will move back one day and own that chiseled bruiser of a car}
Ryland3210 Posted January 3, 2008 Posted January 3, 2008 Can you imagine the guy beaming with excitement in 2045 AD when he finds that cool 2003 BMW or Cadillac or Citroen in a barn. And then the crinkled forhead and frown in 2051 as he attempts one more time to rebuild the torched electronics and wiring harness with only a half arsed service manual and a screaming angry wife in the kitchen. " I told you so, but you wouldn't listen" "Why don't you go throw out more of last season's must have $200 shoes babe and leave me be" ....... massive VB consumption and visitation by the constable..... I think he or she will wonder who's brilliant idea it was to have interactive displays and gee-wizmos when the 1968 Charger rolls up next on the auction block for inspection. Cast iron dash, manual vents, and 440 cubic inches of carbureted power. I had one. You pop the hood (bonnet) and you could fit extra luggage underneath! Today you need a small chimp or intelligent crow to get underneath all the plumbing and trim covers. I could sleep comfortably on the back seat in a corn field with my girlfriend by my side. A rolling apartment or rv it was. {cheers to the Australian Charger, I wanted one so badly when I lived there. There was a tv show on at the time with a detective that drove one too to drive the lust - maybe I will move back one day and own that chiseled bruiser of a car} Ah, yes, you bring back fond memories of camping in my '67 Barracuda 383 four speed formula S fastback. With the back seat and trunk panel folded down, two could stretch out full length on a foam mattress wider than a twin bed. It was also fun going to drive-in movies and parking backwards to watch the movie through the rear window (at least some of the time) while reclining. A six-pack, a sweet honey, ocasionally wiping condensation off the window, and no hassles from anyone. Even in the winter, propane fired catalytic heaters supplied for free by the drive-in made it a year round activity. Camp anywhere, any time on state land. The good old days. Youngsters these days have no idea how much personal freedom has been lost over the years, in the name of "safety".
Guest NotRight Posted January 3, 2008 Posted January 3, 2008 Ah, yes, you bring back fond memories of camping in my '67 Barracuda 383 four speed formula S fastback. With the back seat and trunk panel folded down, two could stretch out full length on a foam mattress wider than a twin bed. It was also fun going to drive-in movies and parking backwards to watch the movie through the rear window (at least some of the time) while reclining. A six-pack, a sweet honey, ocasionally wiping condensation off the window, and no hassles from anyone. Even in the winter, propane fired catalytic heaters supplied for free by the drive-in made it a year round activity. Camp anywhere, any time on state land. The good old days. Youngsters these days have no idea how much personal freedom has been lost over the years, in the name of "safety". Right on man. We never wore seatbelts or sat in booster seats (not promoting it - just saying.....) I do like those early A body barracudas.....that fast back is bad to the bone. O.k. I'll confess. my 68 charger was a 383 two barrel bare bones model with automatic trans. Still loved it though and watch Bullit now and then to comfort myself. I have the orginal tail lights in my mom's attic. In the late 80's I was rear ended at a stoplight.....by a blonde bimbo in her boyfriends mint restored early 60s chevy malibu....tooo weird, eh? I dug the O from chevrolet out of my trunk lid. The car was bent badly (midwest salt assisted flexibilty-body)...
raz Posted January 3, 2008 Posted January 3, 2008 Some of these newer bikes scare me with there closed loop sensor dependency and fly by wire daring. I hope Guzzi takes the higher road. The new bikes have improved the oil sump and feel smoother, which is probably a good thing But adding on board computers and replacing the wire harness with data cables makes me uneasy. Maybe if the onboard computer could tell you when your sensor is faulty, it would be valuable, but that is not likely to work well as you generally need a meter to test a meter. I would love a DIY-ECU together with stepper motor butterflies though. Way cool to mess with. Think cruise control, for instance. A real one, not friction to the roller. Or lugging-prevention. No, on second thought I don't want lugging-prevention. Once I barely got away from getting my car squashed by a fire engine (water tank, high speed, lots of tons) by just pushing my right foot almost through the floor on the (highest) gear that happened to be engaged, and praying very very fast I often wonder what the heck I would buy if I ever lose my Sporti for whatever reason. It will not probably ever be newer than a V11. At least as long as I can only afford one bike.
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