Transmission

[dlaing]

I do have redline in the transmission and it was better after an adjustment of the linkage last night. It only happens at a stop or when I am just about stopped. The gear box binds, like it doesn"t want to drop into the next lower gear, going up then back down frees it up. I am just wondering now if I am not being forcefull enough with my foot when gearing down. Like I said, when gearing down to a stop it works beautifully.

If you have redline, clean and well adjusted linkage, clean clutch fluid and full clutch disengagement, then I would move on to what lies beneath the acorn

The important thing to realize with the adjuster under the acorn is that it is a cam and you basically want to turn it in or out just a small amount. Never turn more than 45 degrees from what you have it at now.

Remove the acorn.

Mark your adjuster screw starting point, precisely.

Loosen the lock nut(this required a good amount of force. A little heat might help)

Adjust the screw maybe 5 degrees to the left, tighten the lock nut and see if it gets better.

If it gets worse, go 5 degrees to the right of your marked starting point.

If either direction gets better, but still not perfect, try going a little further, but it is very easy to go too far.

You will know you have gone to far if you start blowing up shifts.

[Guest ratchethack]

The bike is a 2k V11sport with 14k miles on it. Lately, when coming to a stop, i find that the gear shifter jams, if I push up on it, it breaks free and then it will shift down to 1st. This only happens when I am at a stop, it works fine shifting down if I am moving. I made some adjustment on the linkage and it was better last night. Just was wondering if this has anything to do with the pawl spring and it is just warning me in advance?? Thanks Gini

Gini, I just took a re-read of the above. If the "jam" you're referring to is failure to engage a lower gear intermittently from a higher gear (rather than from neutral) while the bike is stopped, I don't b'lieve you've got anything like a "jam" at all. This is completely normal.

 

It might be helpful to understand how gears are actually changed. Now Pete can no doubt do a much better job than I can describing it, but he's probably cruising the Tasman Sea today on his mega-yacht with some foofy island cocktail with tiny umbrella stuck in it in his hand, served up by a crew of exotic, nubile young deck attendants fighting each other off to service the Cap'n' at his every beck and call.

 

A sequentially shifting constant-mesh transmission engages different gears by means of a ratcheting pawl, which moves shifter forks. The shifter forks engage and disengage sliding muffs on a common shaft with dogs on each of (in this case) 6 gearsets. It's the engagement of the sliding muffs with shift dogs on drive gears that allows gear changes. The teeth of all 6 gearsets in the cluster are always engaged. By design, it's a mutually exclusive operation -- only muffs and dogs of one gearset may be engaged at a time, else instant explosion, al Italia .

 

The point is that if you're stopped and in a higher gear than 2nd, the odds of matching up the sliding muff with shift dogs on the gear for a downshift are somewhere in the vicinity of 60-40 (or somewhere thereabouts). Since the gears and muffs are not moving in relation to each other when you're stopped, If the sliding muff doesn't happen to line up with the space between the dogs on the gear selected, you'll feel a dead STOP at the shift lever, and it won't allow you to move it fully downward in the case of a downshift. If you try to force this, you will risk bending a shift fork, and you DO NOT want that!

 

This is why it's much easier (and always best practice) to downshift BEFORE you come to a stop. As long as the bike is moving, the sliding muffs and dogs on the gears are rotating relative to each other, allowing you to complete the gear change without effort, as the sliding muff will simply rotate to a position where it drops in between shift dogs. If you get stuck in a higher gear than 2nd at a stop, you can drag the clutch just a little, until the dogs and muffs align so you can complete the downshift.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

The point is, best make it a habit to downshift while moving.

[Gini Fata]

I apppreciate all the information. Yes the problem with binding is not there when I down shift to a stop. It's that you can't always down shift when making a quick stop for whatever reason. The situation has been better since i have made some adjustments and lubing like suggested by everyone. I will play with the acorn nut next time and see what happens. This is a problem that I didn't have with the 87 lemans so that is why I am wondering.

[Guest ratchethack]

I apppreciate all the information.

. . .

I will play with the acorn nut next time and see what happens.

Glad to be of service.

 

Now this is just me, but as long as I'm able to get clean downshifts while moving, I wouldn't open Pandora's box here by "playing" with the eccentric adjuster!

 

You could very easily go from "normal operation" to -- err, substantially "less than normal"!

 

I wouldn't touch it, just practice downshifting fully before coming to a stop.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[Dan M]

Now this is just me, but as long as I'm able to get clean downshifts while moving, I wouldn't open Pandora's box here by "playing" with the eccentric adjuster!

 

You could very easily go from "normal operation" to -- err, "less than normal"!

 

I wouldn't touch it, just practice downshifting fully before coming to a stop.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

 

 

Leave the nut alone. It can't go out of adjustment on it's own. You'll find it difficult to get perfect with the side plate on the bike, necessitating lots of trial & error. If you take the plate off it is a different story. Then you can measure where the actuator is between the dogs and set it properly. I'd think it is very close at the factory setting.

[docc]

 

Leave the nut alone. It can't go out of adjustment on it's own. You'll find it difficult to get perfect with the side plate on the bike, necessitating lots of trial & error. If you take the plate off it is a different story. Then you can measure where the actuator is between the dogs and set it properly. I'd think it is very close at the factory setting.

[/quote

 

I, too, would move the nut as a second to last resort ( last resort being pulling the side plate).

 

First, be sure the clutch fluid is fresh and apply a little 'blip' to the throttle when attempting to move the shifter at a standstill.

 

Also, I believe a low idle makes the stopped shift harder. With my tach reading 300 rpm high I try to be sure it ticks over showing 1300 rpm or just a hair better.

[dlaing]

As usual, I am in disagreement with Ratchet, Dan, and Docc.

You will be pleasantly rewarded when you make the adjustment and you obtain better than "normal" performance

But do be very careful and patient as it can be confusing and frustrating if the adjuster is too far out.

Understanding what is happening is key.

The adjuster is simply a cam that sets the bias of the springs centering the shifter.

Too much one way and upshifts are blown.

Too much the other and downshifts are blown.

Rotate it 360 degrees and you are back where you started.

Rotate it to the wrong position and it won't shift!!!!!!!!!!!!(I suppose this is where the fear factor comes into play that scares the forums most experienced wrenches from recommending the adjustment)

Out of the 360 degrees of adjustment, there are only a few degrees that provide a ridable bike.

One 60th of a turn will have a noticeable effect.

Read this thread of others' experiences:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry126457

One potential concern is that the screw may be loctited in so tight that it will not loosen.

 

If I might dare create a step by step process for adjusting to fix bad downshifts, it would look like this:

 

1. Remove acorn nut.

2. Test ride to ensure adjuster screw did not move from original position. If it did, you could be too far out of adjustment. If that happens, proceed to step number 12.

3. Note or better yet mark position of adjustment screw.

4. Loosen lock nut, but make sure adjustment screw does not change position. Loosening the lock nut in quarter turn or less increment while verifying the adjustment screw does not turn will help prevent it from going more than 90 degrees off.

5. Turn the adjustment screw counter-clockwise about 12 degrees (-2 minutes of a minute hand on a clock face).

6. Tighten lock nut enough for test ride

7. Test ride and observe if it got, a. worse, or b. better

a. If down shifts were your original problem and downshifts got worse, turn the adjustment screw clockwise about 24 degrees(so that you are now 12 degrees clockwise of the original marked position)

b. If down shifts were your original proble and downshifts got better, turn the adjustment screw counter-clockwise another 12 degrees(so that you are now 24 degrees counter-clockwise of the original marked positon).

8. Test ride and observe if it got worse or better.

9. Adjust in 6 degrees in the direction that you think will make it better, if wrong, try the other direction.

10. Test ride and adjust as needed until you get it to the optimal position.

11. Lock the lock nut and the acorn, test, then celebrate with a long ride!

But if you are completely lost and simply made it worse, proceed to step 12...

12. If you lost your original mark or it worse than ever, you will need to find the range where it will work.

To do so, make sure lock nut is loose, then gently back the adjustment screw out (counter-clockwise) to the point of resistance, then incrementally turn it clockwise 30 degrees at a time testing the shifts with the engine off until you find the range where it shifts somewhat OK.

13. Tighten lock nut enough for test ride

14. Test ride and observe if which is worse, a. downshifts or b. upshifts

a. If down shifts are worse, turn the adjustment screw clockwise about 12 degrees

b. If up shifts are worse turn the adjustment screw clockwise another 12 degrees

15. Test ride and observe if it got worse or better.

16. Adjust in 6 degrees in the direction that you think will make it better, if wrong, try the other direction.

17. Test ride and adjust as needed until you get it to the optimal position.

18. Lock the lock nut and the acorn, test, then celebrate with a long ride!

But if you are still completely lost and simply made it worse, try again.

19. You tried and tried, but it is worse than ever. Send me hate mail and join the crew of stupid dlaing haters.

 

Please note, I am doing my best to help you and it is certainly possible that following any advice given on this forum you can manage to mess up your bike.

To my knowledge, nobody on this forum has posted that they made it worse by trying to adjust it and several people have posted that they made it better.

Good luck!

[docc]

I didn't say "don't mess with the nut" , I just said to do the other stuff first.

 

I don't mind messing with nuts , and in 19 steps or less it can be interesting to see what happens next . . .

[dlaing]

Sorry, I thought you were disagreeing with me.

 

EDIT OOOoooops, Sorry, I was wrong again. You were quoting Dan, and the quotes weren't placed right, ( a missing bracket...) but still my fault for careless reading.

I am in full agreement with your post.

[Guest ratchethack]

Um, may I point out that Gini opened this thread looking for guidance nearly 10 months ago and has not posted back since June 5 of last year. Paying careful attention to the problem, it never was missed shifts.

 

Seems to me the "problem" here was merely a misunderstanding of how to properly downshift (as discussed above back then) that was more'n likely resolved last June.

 

The key to diagnosis here (that seems to've been ignored above) would've been this statement, where we gain key insight into wot Gini meant by "binding":

. . .the problem with binding is not there when I down shift to a stop. It's that you can't always down shift when making a quick stop for whatever reason.

Now this is just me, but this is no different from the way my own Guzzi trans has always worked. Matter of fact, it's also the way every other V11 I've ever ridden works (several), the way my other moto works, and the way every other moto I've ever owned or ridden works (dozens upon dozens, too numerous to recall).

 

It's the rare exception that would allow full and easy downshifting whilst stopped. The way Gini's trans works is exactly the same way ALL sequentially shifting constant-mesh transmissions work, as described above 10 months ago. Now if Gini had previously developed a bad habit of not downshifting before coming to a stop on an '87 LM, well, I reckon that was a different transmission that might've been more forgiving of how it was operated in this regard, for a variety of reasons (a slightly dragging clutch would be something that comes to mind that might explain it).

 

Since there never was any indication wotsoever here of improper adjustment of the eccentric pin (such as repeatedly missed shifts), adjusting it (following a convoluted 19-step process or not ) would appear to've been taking an unnecessary risk, with high probability of creating an altogether different, stickier problem (such as repeatedly missed shifts) requiring untold amounts of fiddling to resolve, that didn't exist in the first place.

 

If it ain't broke. . . (well, you know)

[Ouiji Veck]

Ha!

I'm a complete caveman...that's why I got a Guzzi.

I look at it like it's an antiquated tractor. I have a complete assortment

of hammers, sticks, chicken wire, tire irons and duct tape to keep everything

in proper running order. As just posted on another "shifting" topic I bare my

soul to the more technically inclined.

 

Fear ye not the Acorn Nut.....says I.

 

repost:

 

Adjuster under acorn nut gets my vote.

Adjust and lube your linkage first and if that dosen't get it move

on to the Acorn / Nut adjuster.

It's right behind the starter...and the best way to adj. is to... adj.- test-repeat

What's going on is your changing a cam that works with the gear selector.

The trick is you need to restart / ride after each adjustment.

The starter can be left on if you have a sacraficial 17mm (15mm?) wrench to cut

in half (1/3?) and a 5mm (?) allen to sacrfice also. (0r was that for a different project? I forget..) A couple seconds on a grinding wheel and

shazzammm!! You got a couple jeenuine certified Guzzi tools.

 

I guess this sounds pretty convoluted but if you've been down there monkeying

around already and put your thinking cap on...find the Acorn nut we're talking about

you'll figure it out. The idea is to do the adj. without taking off the starter each time.

It sounds like your pretty close to set correctly and within 1/8 of a turn on the

slotted screw...one way or the other...that's the trick..which way to turn the slotted adj.

screw...hence..adjust / ride / adjust /ride

 

1. Spin off the acorn nut with your new genuine Guzzi wrench...put it someplace safe (aww..that never works..)

2. Loosen the lock nut and give the slotted screw a 1/16 turn in one direction or the other then

re tighten the lock nut.

3. Test ride and note shifting. (take your special Guzzi tools with you)

4 Repeat until desired results. ( 4 or 5 tries should do it..one direction or the other)

5. Replace acorn nut.........go play.

I did mine at night out on the back roads....by moon light.

(Backing into my cave to deflect the sticks and stones to be hurled my way)

Good luck and don't burn your hand..... mg.gif biggrin.gif ohmy.gif homer.gif

[Guest ratchethack]

Fear ye not the Acorn Nut.....says I.

Aye. Fearing it not is one thing. But best not go out o' y'er way to yank the tail o' a sleeping dragon wot ain't previously inclined to be the source o' y'er hardships in the first place, lest it take a newfound interest in pestering you back. (see other thread)

[raz]

Just mark the exact position it was before you mess with it. And be sure to understand how it works. Most important: if it's like a 5-speeder, if you unwind it too much the spring will climb off its' guide, and you'll need to open the box. Doing the latter is much easier on a six speeder I suppose.