Heat and non starting

[stucatz]

I seem to recall an issue with this problem.

 

V11 year 2000,...out for a great long ride this past saturday very warm maybe 90deg plus, stopped for a while and went to ride off but hard start, stumbled and would not keep an idle. Much backfiring as well.

 

Waited almost 30 minutes and started up again seemed like the problem disappeared, strange.

 

Took off for another 30 minute run, stopped to take a break and then the same, only this time really could not get her started, in fact backfiring was much more prominent and noticed some cracking at the intake boots. Frustrated, I towed her home.

 

OK so i'll order new rubber sleeves for the intakes, but I believe the problem lies somewhere else. I seem to recall a thred where the fuel pump location may be generating too much heat and consequences include vapor lock?

 

Can anyone enlighten me if diagnosed properly and what solution(s) there may be?

 

May there also be a problem with the fuel pump relay? just a thought.

 

Many thanks

[Alex-Corsa]

To my experience the most possible is that the problem lies in the intake rubbers.

I had once similar behavior when one of the injector intake rubbers wasn't air tight and air used to leak in.

You see once air leaks in once in a while then lean spots created, so to call them lean spikes and there are your "piffs" and "paffs"

[docc]

There are some threads on vapor lock. At least one of them is quite long. Try a search on that.

 

It is pretty common that the left side fuel line from the petcock to the pump lies against the cylinder fins. A little grooming by sliding the pump forward in its bracket may be enough to gain clearance.

 

The state of tune can be a real issue in hot weather. If it's been 6000 miles since the last relly thorough 0.006-0.008 valve adjustment/plugsTPS/TB balance/idle set this can work absolute wonders. Air bypass screws at a full turn out has always helped my Sport idle in the south'n heat.

 

I've never seen intake leaks be intermittent. usually the surface cracks don't go through. A solvent test or wrap of electrical tape will tell you if the idle changes.

 

The relays are certainly a possibility especially with an intermittent problem. Have you changed the GEI yet?

 

Lately I've been thinking about heat soak and the location of the air temperature sensor in the air box. Lying between the cylinders above the motor it seems like it would get awfully hot in there with bike sitting for a short while. Longer sitting would then let the air box cool as well. It's those short stops, longer than fuel, but not as long as lunch, that might heat soak the air sensor and give the ECU some really wacky input.

[Guest ratchethack]

Stucatz, this sounds very much like mild vapor lock to me. Your description is a fairly classic situation for "heat soak", whereby just the right time not running after fully warmed-up on a hot day, fuel line temps take on just enough radiant heat from the motor, and voila . The "worst" heat-soak interval -- the time shut down to avoid on a hot day after fully warm -- seems to be around 20 min.

 

Different V11 models seem to exhibit different susceptibilities to this. I've experienced exactly the same, yet less serious symptoms as you're describing with my 2000 Sport. IMHO there's little you can do that's either practical or effective to combat this, but no need to tow, just be aware of it, wait it out and save the hassle and expense. Depending on your riding habits, it may never show up at all. Though I've had the symptoms (only very occasionally), I've always been able to "ride it out" without a stall or failure to start. As Todd at GuzziTech has pointed out, you can think of these motors as being not only air cooled, but partially "fuel cooled" as well as partially oil-cooled.

 

WRT intake rubber cracking, I doubt if this is the problem. If it were, the symptoms would not disappear, they'd be constant. Though they will eventually deteriorate to the point of leaking, it takes many many years and the cosmetic cracking is just that. I've had a set of spares waiting in my home shop cabinet for years now for the day I get symptoms, when I'll change them out. But still going strong on my originals, surface cracks and all. One way to check for failure is to crack open a propane torch (UNLIT!) while the engine is idling, and direct propane all around the intake rubbers. A leak will cause the RPMs to jump significantly.

 

Hope this helps.

[stucatz]

Thanks for the replies, I'll know better next time.

 

On the subject of relays, what or which is the GEI? and what's it's function and which would be an appropriate alternative?

 

By the way, I ordered new intake boots anyway, avoiding the inevitable one day.

[Guest ratchethack]

Stu, Docc refers to an excellent replacement relay -- particularly for the stock START relay, the forward-most of the 5 relays under the seat. Info, FAQ's (don't miss these), and source on these appear here:

 

http://www.dpguzzi.com/relay.htm

 

I use one myself in the START socket, which I installed as a precaution. This is just me, but I've had no problems whatsoever with Tyco relays in the (front-to-back, immediately after the START socket): LIGHTS, NEUTRAL, ECU, and EFI sockets. Dan (aka "Relay Dan" Prunuske) is 100% trustworthy, happy to provide info, a Great Guy, and if you order from him, no matter how small your order, you won't be displeased.

[Gini Fata]

Stu, Docc refers to an excellent replacement relay -- particularly for the stock START relay, the forward-most of the 5 relays under the seat. Info, FAQ's (don't miss these), and source on these appear here:

 

http://www.dpguzzi.com/relay.htm

 

I use one myself in the START socket, which I installed as a precaution. This is just me, but I've had no problems whatsoever with Tyco relays in the (front-to-back, immediately after the START socket): LIGHTS, NEUTRAL, ECU, and EFI sockets. Dan (aka "Relay Dan" Prunuske) is 100% trustworthy, happy to provide info, a Great Guy, and if you order from him, no matter how small your order, you won't be displeased.

This is the fix I got from a friend In Toronto that has since sold his v11. I am in the process of aquiring all my parts and will then proceed to illiminate the vapor lock syndrom once and for all. Parts>>> 4" pull through fan from Spal, currently on back order, 156 degree thermal switch that works on air temperature hooked into a relay to the battery. The fan needs to be installed behind the left side of the oil cooler so it pulls air in throught the oil cooler and the thermal switch on the right side. The switch activates the fan when it reaches 156 and shuts off about 146 degrees. It will run maybe a couple of minutes when the bike is shut off when it needs to.He has promised me that this really works. Oh, also heat wrap all the fuel lines as well with thermo shield that is available at any race shop etc.

[nose2wind]

This is the fix I got from a friend In Toronto that has since sold his v11. I am in the process of aquiring all my parts and will then proceed to illiminate the vapor lock syndrom once and for all. Parts>>> 4" pull through fan from Spal, currently on back order, 156 degree thermal switch that works on air temperature hooked into a relay to the battery. The fan needs to be installed behind the left side of the oil cooler so it pulls air in throught the oil cooler and the thermal switch on the right side. The switch activates the fan when it reaches 156 and shuts off about 146 degrees. It will run maybe a couple of minutes when the bike is shut off when it needs to.He has promised me that this really works. Oh, also heat wrap all the fuel lines as well with thermo shield that is available at any race shop etc.

 

 

I agree with ratchet your boots are not the problem. The cracking does not go through. I have had many instances with the vapor lock. Moved line from touching head no fix. I finally worked out a fix (haven't had occurance in 2 years) It is on the list and should come up with a search. I moved the pump to the filter location and the filter to the pump location. I even have pictures.

 

[url=http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7461&hl=#

[Alex-Corsa]

There are some threads on vapor lock. At least one of them is quite long. Try a search on that.

 

 

Oh yes there is this vapor lock as well. I don't have any knowledge about it since the 1100 i Sport never had any issues about it.

[badmotogoozer]

Sounds exactly like vapour lock. My '01 suffered from this until I insulated the line from tank to pump with Firesleeve. I found it at an aircraft repair shop at the airport but I've since found it at Summit Racing too. You'll need a foot of it.

 

Cured it for me...

 

Rj

[dlaing]

snip

Took off for another 30 minute run, stopped to take a break and then the same, only this time really could not get her started, in fact backfiring was much more prominent and noticed some cracking at the intake boots. Frustrated, I towed her home.

Does not read like vapor lock to me, because you let it cool down, right?

Nor does it appear to be relays, as the most common relay problem is that the starter won't work.

I would look for another cause.

I might think kickstand switch, or neutral safety relay but the neutral light was lit, right?

Clutch switch would not cause backfiring.

Kill switch is a possibility. EDIT possibility for rough running symptoms, not starting problem...still unlikely as the engine would not crank reliably.

Loose battery connections.

Going through all the connections looking for signs of oxidation and lubing connections with tiny amounts of conductive lube could fix the problem.

Could also be a combination of problems, like tight valves, weak spark, weak battery, lean mixture, dirty filter, bitter lover leaving sugar in gas, etc.

[badmotogoozer]

How long was the break? If only 15 min, almost certainly vapour lock. Exactly what mine was doing.

 

If I just stopped long enough to gas up it'd be fine. If it sat 15 mins - exactly the same symptoms as described. Let it sit another 30 mins and back to normal.

 

Rj

[stucatz]

Hey Nose can I see the pictures on the filter/pump relocation?

 

The "downtime" seemed greater than 15mins....hmm

 

As i may have mentioned, I cranked and cranked and all I got was her spitting and coughing at me, (putana) !! So this tells me that the kickstand switch is out, right?

 

It was almost as if only firing on one cylinder, the cylinder on my left (sitting on bike) fuel starvation?....sounds to me could be it.

 

BTW, have not looked at it too much as I'm picking up a tre-colore 1098 in about an hour, yes it's true.

 

Im turning 50 this year and thought , " when the hell am I going to do it, when I'm 60" so it's my gift to me, my mid life crises I suppose but cheaper than a 25 year old.

[Martin Barrett]

Hey Nose can I see the pictures on the filter/pump relocation?

 

The "downtime" seemed greater than 15mins....hmm

 

As i may have mentioned, I cranked and cranked and all I got was her spitting and coughing at me, (putana) !! So this tells me that the kickstand switch is out, right?

 

It was almost as if only firing on one cylinder, the cylinder on my left (sitting on bike) fuel starvation?....sounds to me could be it.

 

BTW, have not looked at it too much as I'm picking up a tre-colore 1098 in about an hour, yes it's true.

 

Im turning 50 this year and thought , " when the hell am I going to do it, when I'm 60" so it's my gift to me, my mid life crises I suppose but cheaper than a 25 year old.

 

If it turns over it's not the side stand/clutch/neutral safety they all stop it turning as does the kill switch.

 

It does sound like the heat sink thing, the only other thing along this side could be a coil/or other sensor breaking down but I don't really have a clue sorry.

[stucatz]

Update: right so i replaced the intake rubber boots, repositioned the fuel line from the pump so it pretty much travels along the spine and went for a ride last night....No problems whatsoever...this tells me that all your comments on vapor lock was the issue.

 

I have noticed that one of my buddies V11 has a wrap around that fuel line which tells me that the previous owner of that bike was aware of this issue and did so as a preventive measure.

 

I will as an added measure purchase some heat shield material and wrap that fuel line and possibly the fuel pump under the spine and hope that this will never occur again.

 

Thanks again for all your input