Cornering on a V11 - techniques?

[Guest ratchethack]

Tires are truly personal choice. Someone above edited a quote to elude that Metzelers break away quickly. I've had great results with Metzeler Z6s and Pirelli Stradas, very predictable, quite the opposite with the factory Bridgestones.

Somebody once posted here that Metzeler tires don't work on Guzzi's. I had to inquire if this were the result of some kind of a medical allergy between tire compound and Guzzi wheel rims, or if there is some bad leftover Ju-ju from the pre-historic tribal origins of Teutonic and Roman ancestry that would make them metaphysically incompatible. . .

 

For someone to make a blanket statement that Metzeler tires "do anything" -- every model tire, across the board -- should raise fairly high suspicion on the face of it, should it not?!

 

IMHO Metzeler Z6's are the most predictable, forgiving, and least inclined to "break away unexpectedly" of any tire I've ever ridden on, and that's a fairly big pile. . .

 

Taking top honors in Sport/Touring competitive evaluations in Moto Revue and Motorrad in both dry and wet (as posted previously back in April in my barking mad endorsement and ensuing thread discussion) should lend some credibility to the Z6's, eh?

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry119742

 

IMHO, all the top tire mfgr's have undergone such dramatic improvements in recent years that memories of bad experiences back in the days of bias ply tires not only don't apply, such memories should've been relegated to the dustbin of history decades ago... As I've proposed many times, we must be living in the Golden Age of motorcycle tires today. I believe I'm riding on steel radial Sport/Touring tires today that guys would've given up the family jewels to race on merely decades ago. . . and they actually get better mileage than many "Touring" tires in the bargain!!

[Dan M]

IMHO, all the top tire mfgr's have undergone such dramatic improvements in recent years that memories of bad experiences back in the days of bias ply tires not only don't apply, such memories should've been relegated to the dustbin of history decades ago... As I've proposed many times, we must be living in the Golden Age of motorcycle tires today. I believe I'm riding on steel radial Sport/Touring tires today that guys would've given up the family jewels to race on merely decades ago. . . and they actually get better mileage than many "Touring" tires in the bargain!!

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Over the years I've always favored Metzelers, even back in the bias ply days. Always switching to them from the factory Bridgestones or Dunlops. Perhaps there is some deep seated prejudice there. In all fairness, after dissin' the Bridgestones that were on my LeMans when I got it; I'll have to add that I bought the bike 3 years old with 900 miles on the clock. It is quite likely they were much harder than new so traction suffered.

[slowkitty]

Sorry if I was too vague, Ratch.

 

The front does not feel planted, very light. Turns too quickly. Improved somewhat when I put some weight on the handles, although I believe that this is contrary to what Greg said about putting most if not all weight on the tank by gripping them.

 

Will start from ground zero again, make a note of all settings and then try out the settings by increments. This weekend will be riding elsewhere, and not on the Guzzi, so will do this next week, I reckon.

 

Cheers

 

Cat

[Guest ratchethack]

Sorry if I was too vague, Ratch.

 

The front does not feel planted, very light. Turns too quickly. Improved somewhat when I put some weight on the handles, although I believe that this is contrary to what Greg said about putting most if not all weight on the tank by gripping them.

 

Will start from ground zero again, make a note of all settings and then try out the settings by increments. This weekend will be riding elsewhere, and not on the Guzzi, so will do this next week, I reckon.

 

Cheers

 

Cat

Couple of things, Cat:

 

You want your weight as far forward as possible but not pushing down on the bars. This may seem contradictory at first, and I understand how you might be confused about wot Greg said and I agreed with, gripping the tank with the knees. This does nothing to get the weight forward. Wot helps getting the weight forward is to slide up on the seat and get out over the front with your upper body and use the back muscles as Greg noted to carry that weight (arms bent and relaxed), rather than carrying the weight on the wrists. Using the back DOES NOT shift weight rearward, despite wot many might be tempted to think! Now supporting your forward lean with your back all the time is more than a little work after awhile. Wot I've found is that you trade off, depending on the road. In full-on mountain twisties it's all lifting with the back. On the straight you shift some of this to the bars, alternating as needed.

 

It's pretty hard, though pretty common, to start a thread on handling looking for input by asking what you're doing wrong when there's so many things to be done, and you haven't indicated wot you've done!

 

We found out you fiddled with tire pressures (that looked high enough by several pounds, especially with your weight, to explain some of that front end skittishness to me) and that you took your bike to a dealer who "tweaked it".

 

Now lots of posters have given bits & pieces of good advice here, but it looks to me like you don't know where you are in the scheme of things because for starters, you don't know what sags you have. IMHO this is the foundation that you build your setup on. If you've simply relied on your dealer to get the sags right and still don't know where he left them, that'll be the end of your ability to improve your suspension settings right there, IMHO.

 

The good news is that with a little study and measurement, you can find out for yourself where the sags are, and if needed, take the indicated steps to improve.

 

May I again highly recommend the setup links in post #74 above.

 

Hope this helps.

[Ouiji Veck]

I'm gettin' dizzy ......

 

I was out tonight on the favorite roads and thought about this thread.

Tried to make the Guzzi feel "nervous" and actually found I could by putting

too much input into the bars. I steer with my arse more than counter steer.

Been riding bikes with clipons over 20 yrs. I'm just tossing out that it might just

be technique rather than some of our mechanical suggestions. I guess that goes with the lose

arms, light touch philosophy.

 

Ahh... another thought. Blown rear shock. Yes. When my Sachs blew the front tire felt like it

was trying to skitter out from under me. Have you given the rear the old bounce test Cat?

( should come up slow)

 

Any way...I'm thiknin' 'bout ya when I'm out there. (boy am I out there)

[Guest The Big Katuna]

My V11 rails,I dont even touch the settings when 2 up, I guess whoever had the bike before me did a good job because I dont think I can Improve it. another Metzeler fan here,Initially ,throttle control was labor intensive since I had been riding I4's, but now it is just second nature. I have bonded with this bike. no complaints except she doesnt like traffic and heat. (but who does)?.

[OldButNotDead]

I'm gettin' dizzy ......

 

...Tried to make the Guzzi feel "nervous" and actually found I could by putting

too much input into the bars...Been riding bikes with clipons over 20 yrs. I'm just tossing out that it might just be technique rather than some of our mechanical suggestions...

 

 

+1.....

[Guzzirider]

How to make your Guzzi handle terribly- don't ride it for 6 weeks and instead ride a state of the art lightweight Ducati for several hundered miles.

 

I got on my V11 tonight after a long break while I was fixing it. Took to the local twisty roads in the lovely warm evening sunshine and it felt awful- slow, heavy, old fashioned, crude and ponderous. An old wheezy tractor that runs out of revs in the blink of an eye.

 

40 miles later- we were in love again- what a fine handling rorty torquey planted bike- just needed to get reaccquainted. I just slowed down my corner entry speeds and kept it smooth rather than push it too hard- funny how you forget how to ride a bike properly sometimes.

 

BT021s pretty good too- not quite as sticky as the Diablo Corsas I used to run, but not bad for a touring tyre.

 

Guy

[Mike]

First - my sense is that the instability problem on V11s is that the front end is too light. Other people have written that they get the best handling by balls to the tank and I notice the same thing, and placing your head about over the switch gear while leaned over, better to steer more with the body than overt countersteer. But please read on - as my Scura should now be charged with attempted murder.

 

 

This is both a reply and a cry for help, so I'll cry and hope someone will help. My 02' Scura tried to kill me on Saturday. I've had it a year and 6k. It has 10.5 k on it and Bridgestone Battle Axes. I have turned the dampner up, way up. Logically, it cannot be from the dampner. From the get go I thought it was twitchy but I liked the quick steering. As I ride it harder, I noticed that on a hard upshift it would shake its head a bit as the front got lighter. I did not like this. Saturday, I was working through the gears on a slight up-grade and when I shifted into 5th or 6th, at about 110 mph, on a clean two lane Ontario road in the country, it began The Royal Tank Slapper. I mean a real one. If you have never experienced one of these, you really can't imagine how much fun they are on a public road with fence posts utility poles, traffic...

 

I followed the Code method of resisting "survival" responses, kept my hands super light on the bars, - no help - I added a little throttle - no help and a sense that the famous last words ("oh shit") might be coming, I rolled off a bit worrying that putting some more weight on the front would make things worse and I'd be pitched off for sure, but it calmed down. The first words inside my helmet were something like "you m-f piece of ... I am killing you and selling what's left", but... I really love it... I also notice that on on and off ramps it wobbles in and out, like others notice.

 

Has anyone experimented with dropping the clamps to allow some more fork tube on top? I don't see this as a dampening problem so much as it seems that across the board the bike squirms in turns unless you are super smooth and your steering inputs are made with your weight way forward. I do wonder about the tire selection.

 

Compared to my 93 Ducati 900SS, the Scura is a scary, nasty and unstable bike. I can't believe there is not some fundamental thing wrong here and hope someone has cured this problem.

 

mike lebow

[lavrgs]

As an owner that is new to Moto Guzzi I found that my first cornering experiences included wallowing, head shaking and a variety of twitching. I would have to say that the main cause was sloppy riding. Rolling the throttle on/off at the wrong time, braking at the wrong time and generally to much input. After hating that crap I found that once I smoothed out my inputs everything was much better. But I tend to be one who changes to fit the bike rather than changing the bike to fit me. Now I must say that this is no MV F4, which was my last venture into modern technology, with that bike I could be as sloppy as I wanted and it would handle WAY better than the Lemans but after 2 hours I'd be back home begging for ibuprophen. Now I can say that I have lived with, and in fact am still living with, some evil handling bikes. My Laverda RGS is like riding a nautilus machine - lots of input required - probably where the excessive input to the MG came from. Remember it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools

[Steve G.]

As an owner that is new to Moto Guzzi I found that my first cornering experiences included wallowing, head shaking and a variety of twitching. I would have to say that the main cause was sloppy riding. Rolling the throttle on/off at the wrong time, braking at the wrong time and generally to much input. After hating that crap I found that once I smoothed out my inputs everything was much better. But I tend to be one who changes to fit the bike rather than changing the bike to fit me. Now I must say that this is no MV F4, which was my last venture into modern technology, with that bike I could be as sloppy as I wanted and it would handle WAY better than the Lemans but after 2 hours I'd be back home begging for ibuprophen. Now I can say that I have lived with, and in fact am still living with, some evil handling bikes. My Laverda RGS is like riding a nautilus machine - lots of input required - probably where the excessive input to the MG came from. Remember it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools

 

An accurate view of the RGS's handling. While I would put the Lemans ahead in capability in corners below 55 mph, and much easier to change direction, the RGS, in fact all post '78 Laverdas are far and distant better at high speed sweepers, far more stable at any speed, even though they are some 10-15 yrs senior in technology.

Remember, a fine craftsman also blames his tools.

Ciao, Steve

[jcbooghs]

Has anyone experimented with dropping the clamps to allow some more fork tube on top?

This is a must-do!

You can lower the bike in front as long as the front fender doesn't hit the fairing while braking.

If you lower it too much the bike will ride uncomfortably, too much weight on the front, too much weight on your wrists.

I remember the manual of the Sport/Daytona/Centauro mentioned to lower it 5mm ( 0,1968") but the bikes weren't delivered that way. So this was the first thing to do to have a good riding bike at high speed.

It is a bit experimental. Start with 5mm and ride it. Then go to 7mm, ride it and feel the difference.

Some millimeters can make a huge difference

[Baldini]

... I've had it a year and 6k. It has 10.5 k on it and Bridgestone Battle Axes. I have turned the dampner up, way up....From the get go I thought it was twitchy but I liked the quick steering. As I ride it harder, I noticed that on a hard upshift it would shake its head a bit as the front got lighter.....working through the gears on a slight up-grade and when I shifted into 5th or 6th, at about 110 mph, on a clean two lane Ontario road in the country, it began..... kept my hands super light on the bars.... added a little throttle.... it calmed down....Has anyone experimented with dropping the clamps....I don't see this as a dampening problem so much as it seems that across the board the bike squirms in turns unless you are super smooth and your steering inputs are made with your weight way forward. I do wonder about the tire selection....some fundamental thing wrong here....

 

I've only ever had a tank-slapper once. It was so sudden, so quick, so fierce I could barely keep my hands on the bars let alone vary my grip or control the throttle with any subtlety. A sudden, very fierce, fast oscillation of the bars, lock to lock. That's what you experienced? ?

 

I've found the Scura shakes it's head under certain conditions usually involving uneven surfaces, or crests, but settles down. I also find Tontis do this.

 

The worst experience I had on the Scura was a severe weave when I could barely keep it on the carriageway. I was travelling very fast in a long turn, hit some dips & it was away. Like you it was uphill. It wandered slowly & repeatedly left to right across the road for what seemed forever but was probably between 50-100 yards. But this was not what you experienced?

 

Was road surface bumpy?

 

Scura is a big, heavy bike w/rearward wt bias, crude rear suspension design using a v short s/a, & flexible frame. It will misbehave, if pushed hard. It is not a real sports bike. You have to ride within it's limitations. Smoothness is everything & any clumsy or sudden heavy inputs will unsettle it, inc hard changes, varying throttle. However it is also fairly forgiving & if you can avoid hitting anything during the trauma it seems to settle....

 

It can be improved over stock. My Scura came very badly set up for me. Stock springs are v soft & will not work for anyone over about 170lbs. Have you sorted the suspension out for your weight & riding style (set sag)? If not I would look there first for the culprit. Pushed hard as it came to me, the Scura was a pig. It can be much improved but only by getting basics right: no amount of fiddling with damping will sort a basic set-up/spring problem.

 

I raised forks about half inch in clamps. Helped wt distribution & steering. But only after riding w/forks in stock position for fair long time. I don't believe that would cause or solve your problem.

 

I use only a little steering damper & vary it depending how I'm riding. The Ohlins damper is very subtle in it's adjustments & very effective. I don't see why you should need it fully wound on unless you are masking a different problem. I believe a lot of steering damping can actually cause steering/handling problems.

 

You're on BT020's? Not original ones? I found those tyres very unsatisfactory for quick riding. The front particularly, wears badly cupped & starts to feel very unstable in turns esp if theres any uneveness. Get rid if you're gonna ride like that, replace w/better tyres - you'll find a load of threads here on tyres. What pressures do you run?

 

Scura can be ridden reasonably fast on sorted suspension & good tyres, but has to be ridden the way it demands, not the way you might ride a 900SS.

 

Good luck.

 

KB