Setting Proper Sag

[macguzzi]

Hey Mac. This is a Technical Forum. The topic is Setting Proper Sag.

 

Looks like there are a few with sincere interest here.

 

If you don't like it, aren't interested, and have nothing to offer, wot the feck are you doing here?

 

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know).

Expletives could not describe my anger

[dlaing]

Well, I just took measurements on my bike, here are the results:

 

Back

unladen 20 mm

laden 50 mm

 

 

Front

unladen 30 mm

laden 40 mm

 

I also think there could be something wrong with the front fork. When I am on the bike, I push the fork down and release it, I hear a click.

What do you think?

As Ratchet said, your rear spring is too soft.

Judging from the happy people on this forum who have re-sprung, you will do best with something around 600#/inch.

Note this is hit or miss advice. For touring on smoothish roads 550#/inch will give a softer ride, but will bottom out. 600 may also bottom out pretty regularly, so if you are very sporty rider or live in a city of potholes, 650#/inch may be a better bet.

I still could be wrong and 700#/inch could be what you will be happiest with, but I don't think anyone on this forum has tried more than a 650#/in spring. In any case, at 260# you will be happier with anything firmer than the stock spring.

Ratchet's 2:1 ratio shows your front to be way too hard. I seriously doubt it. But you should follow Ratchet's infamous fluid level setting recommendations. For the early Marzocchis forks on V11s, it appears nobody can give better advice on setting the level.

Pay attention to bottoming out. Like Brian said, "If you're not bottoming or topping out, and both ends rise and fall together, Bob's your uncle......."

Following those wise words will get you get close enough to perfection, but don't go too firm with 1000#/inch springs!!!

In case you have not noticed, everyone has there own idea of what the ideal spring rate is.

[Guest ratchethack]

"If you're not bottoming or topping out, and both ends rise and fall together, Bob's your uncle......."

Wrong. As I b'lieve you've experienced yourself, Dave, when forks are severely undersprung for the load they're subjected to (probably the most typical suspension mismatch problem there is), you can ride around on the air spring at a tiny fraction of available suspension travel and never bottom out. I've seen countless riders who do this for years and years. Come to think of it, this is exactly wot you did with your Marz fork before replacing the whole thing, Dave. Depending on the rate and load, the ride will be to some degree harsh and jarring, but due to the rising rate of the air spring, it's virtually impossible to bottom most modern forks, barring a crash, in which case bottoming out ain't usually part of anybody's concerns anyway.

 

When you pay attention to setting air gap on a fork and go about setting it for optimum stroke the way it's suggested on Verdone's page (which I've so often linked), what happens is that with a zip-tie on the fork leg to measure the extent of fork travel whilst riding over a hard square-edged bump and front-braking as hard as possible at the same time, you find it gets progressively harder to get more fork travel with a given increase in air gap. I set mine to 115 mm max travel under these conditions, per the usual guidelines, and it's never gone over this.

 

BAA, TJM & YMMV

[Guest ratchethack]

Expletives could not describe my anger

Superlatives cannot describe my indifference.

 

Why not find something of interest to spend your time on today, Mac -- or is it whining itself, without regard to topic or discussion, wot you're actually interested in??

 

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know).

[macguzzi]

intrested but have a LIFE

[Guest ratchethack]

intrested but have a LIFE

I reckon you've got a mighty peculiar way of showing your interest, Mac:

Oh no not again you guys need your own forum

Evidently your LIFE includes reading this thread, same's the rest of us here. It's your posts in this thread that really seem to stand out. Is there something special about yourself that you've evidenly kept very well hidden? Come on now -- out with it, then! You seem to've got something particularly dark, bilious and festering that seems to've been workin' on you a long long time to unload here?

 

Otherwise, how about contributing something besides suggestions that those (unlike yourself) who're right on topic here, go find another forum?

[BrianG]

Wrong. As I b'lieve you've experienced yourself, Dave, when forks are severely undersprung for the load they're subjected to (probably the most typical suspension mismatch problem there is), you can ride around on the air spring at a tiny fraction of available suspension travel and never bottom out. I've seen countless riders who do this for years and years. Come to think of it, this is exactly wot you did with your Marz fork before replacing the whole thing, Dave. Depending on the rate and load, the ride will be to some degree harsh and jarring, but due to the rising rate of the air spring, it's virtually impossible to bottom most modern forks, barring a crash, in which case bottoming out ain't usually part of anybody's concerns anyway.

 

Come on now Ratch..... you gotta share whatever it is you've been smoking lately!

 

Your fusilade of personal invective not withstanding..... and left unanswered...........

 

Can't bottom on the "air spring"?? That's just garbage..... Every fork I've looked into spec's an airspace that continues to exist when the tube bottoms, and it's not just a few mm's... it's 10's of mm's .... up to 100+mm's in some. In fact, every fork I've worked on spec's the airspace with the slider bottomed. So there's LOTS of opportunity to compress the entrapped air sufficiently to bottom your "severely undersprung" fork, in any decent pothole. And yes... I've been there, done that.

 

If you've actually been listening to the track-side "suspension tuners" of the day, their goal is "compliance"..... that is, to set the suspension to use as much of the available travel as possible, with as few bottoming/topping events as possible (but not necessarily zero).

 

Arguably, for most of us road warriors the goal might be just slightly less than zero..... but just.

[Guest ratchethack]

Come on now Ratch..... you gotta share whatever it is you've been smoking lately!

 

Your fusilade of personal invective not withstanding..... and left unanswered...........

 

Can't bottom on the "air spring"?? That's just garbage..... Every fork I've looked into spec's an airspace that continues to exist when the tube bottoms, and it's not just a few mm's... it's 10's of mm's .... up to 100+mm's in some. In fact, every fork I've worked on spec's the airspace with the slider bottomed. So there's LOTS of opportunity to compress the entrapped air sufficiently to bottom your "severely undersprung" fork, in any decent pothole. And yes... I've been there, done that.

Brian, "fusillade of personal invective", you say?? Directed at YOU, Brian??

 

My my! Aren't we getting a little creative here -- or perhaps overly sensitive is the better term?!

 

Is the above your idea of "invective"?? Wot English meaning of the term are you using, praytell??

 

And wot left unanswered now?! Am I missing something (important)??

 

Take it easy here, Brian. I've never suggested that there's NO air space left at full compression, just that full compression is impossible to achieve with modern forks! This has been my experience with forks since I first started "Terry Kitting" and fiddling with air springs on a Bultaco Pursang in the early '70's, and with every fork I've had (12ea.) all the way up to today -- off road and on road. Now admittedly, I speak from the frame of reference of a rider who's never weighed more than 180 lbs. And I've typically had my suspensions set properly with up-rated springs matched to the load. Regardless of your weight, if you've actually been bottoming modern design forks, and it's indeed possible, I'll be willing to stand corrected if it's true -- it's simply outta my range of experience -- and I submit that under most circumstances it's extremely rare, with the possible exception of riders who're "Big Un's" of course -- and riding on hopelessly mismatched springs.

If you've actually been listening to the track-side "suspension tuners" of the day, their goal is "compliance"..... that is, to set the suspension to use as much of the available travel as possible, with as few bottoming/topping events as possible (but not necessarily zero).

 

Arguably, for most of us road warriors the goal might be just slightly less than zero..... but just.

Brian, if you'd read any of the links I've provided umpteen times as guides to suspension setup, you'd find that using as much of available travel as possible in the fork as well as the shock stroke is certainly the objective of the Pro's I've cited. I've followed the principles in these links without exception to the best of my knowledge and ability. As I mentioned above, I'm getting 115 mm out of the available 120 mm fork travel possible in the Marz 040 fork. I've hammered it pretty hard over some rough ground at some walloping speeds, and (again) it's never exceeded 115 mm travel by the zip-tie I keep on the fork leg for the purpose of monitoring this (as many will do for the same purpose).

 

Now racers typically set up their forks to bottom only minimally, but up to several times every lap. The purpose in using this as a gauge is to make sure they've got full use of the entire suspension travel. If I'm not minstaken, I think this one's cited in one of the links I've provided as well. But let's face it. Fof the most part, racing suspensions don't operate and aren't set up to operate for road conditions, and vice-versa, and next to NONE of us here are racing our Guzzi's. Of the great many aspects of motorcycing NOT equivalent between riding on the road and racing, I reckon bottoming suspension's one of 'em.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[BrianG]

............. I'll be willing to stand corrected if it's true -- it's simply outta my range of experience -- and I submit that under most circumstances it's extremely rare, with the possible exception of riders who're "Big Un's" of course.

 

Then corrected you stand.... (and I'm a tiny guy m'self, at 6'2 & 225lb)

 

 

Brian, if you'd read any of the links I've provided umpteen times as guides to suspension setup, you'd find that using as much of available travel as possible in the fork as well as the shock stroke is certainly the objective of the Pro's I've cited. I've followed the principles in these links without exception to the best of my knowledge and ability. As I mentioned above, I'm getting 115 mm out of the available 120 mm fork travel possible in the Marz 040 fork. I've hammered it pretty hard over some rough ground at some walloping speeds, and (again) it's never exceeded 115 mm travel by the zip-tie I keep on the fork leg for the purpose of monitoring this (as many will do for the same purpose).

 

There ya go, mate! I knew that we basically agreed on this topic.......

[dlaing]

As I mentioned above, I'm getting 115 mm out of the available 120 mm fork travel possible in the Marz 040 fork. I've hammered it pretty hard over some rough ground at some walloping speeds, and (again) it's never exceeded 115 mm travel by the zip-tie I keep on the fork leg for the purpose of monitoring this (as many will do for the same purpose).

Seems to me your fluid level is about 5mm too high.

[Guest ratchethack]

Seems to me your fluid level is about 5mm too high.

Um, no. No, but thank you just the same, Dave.

 

I don't know about you, Dave, but where I like to ride best, it's not nearly as predictable terrain as a race track. Quite the contrary.

 

You see, Dave, it's like this with me on setup for max. suspension impact (as I reckon it should be for you also):

 

Jaap no doubt knows this one better than meself. Netherlanders for thousands of years are traditionally intimately familiar with the sea. As a seafaring Nation once dominant in its control of the oceans of the entire planet, you might say the sea and everything to do with the sea is in their blood. The landscape in much of Holland, being reclaimed land well below sea level, is awash (ahem! so to speak!) with such features as dikes (much moreso than dykes, but let's not go there, shall we?), polders, sea walls, canals, and pumping, pumping, pumping (let's not go there either, shall we, Part II?) Their very lives depend on understanding the sea to a very high degree, and keeping it from literally washing their country and people away is simply a part of everyday life.

 

The Big Waves always come in from the North Sea in sets of 3. They're known as The Sleeper, The Dreamer, and The Holy Redeemer. You can usually deal with The Sleeper and The Dreamer. It's always The Holy Redeemer who's NOT to be trifled with. Just a few generations back, and within the living memory of many still with us today, it's The Holy Redeemer wot's taken a toll on the country and it's people to such a degree that they will NEVER, EVER forget. . .

 

Same with The Great Whoopers for moto's -- on or off-road, except for the sets of 3 part -- you still get the same 3 categories. I reckon I've dealt with countless Sleepers and Dreamers. I'm lucky to've survived a couple o' Holy Redeemers in me younger days. Whether I could weather even one more such as these is questionable at best. Mothers in Holland (traditionally anyway) don't raise no dummies. Every Dutch mother's son knows in his bones that it's always, always, and always the yet-to-come Holy Redeemer that you need to set yourself up for.

 

Capice?

[dlaing]

Um, no. No, but thank you just the same, Dave.

 

I don't know about you, Dave, but where I like to ride best, it's not nearly as predictable terrain as a race track. Quite the contrary.

 

You see, Dave, it's like this with me on setup for max. suspension impact (as I reckon it should be for you also):

 

Jaap no doubt knows this one better than meself. Netherlanders for thousands of years are traditionally intimately familiar with the sea. As a seafaring Nation once dominant in its control of the oceans of the entire planet, you might say the sea and everything to do with the sea is in their blood. The landscape in much of Holland, being reclaimed land well below sea level, is awash (ahem! so to speak!) with such features as dikes (much moreso than dykes, but let's not go there, shall we?), polders, sea walls, canals, and pumping, pumping, pumping (let's not go there either, shall we, Part II?) Their very lives depend on understanding the sea to a very high degree, and keeping it from literally washing their country and people away is simply a part of everyday life.

 

The Big Waves always come in from the North Sea in sets of 3. They're known as The Sleeper, The Dreamer, and The Holy Redeemer. You can usually deal with The Sleeper and The Dreamer. It's always The Holy Redeemer who's NOT to be trifled with. Just a few generations back, and within the living memory of many still with us today, it's The Holy Redeemer wot's taken a toll on the country and it's people to such a degree that they will NEVER, EVER forget. . .

 

Same with The Great Whoopers for moto's -- on or off-road, except for the sets of 3 part -- you still get the same 3 categories. I reckon I've dealt with countless Sleepers and Dreamers. I'm lucky to've survived a couple o' Holy Redeemers in me younger days. Whether I could weather even one more such as these is questionable at best. Mothers in Holland (traditionally anyway) don't raise no dummies. Every Dutch mother's son knows in his bones that it's always, always, and always the yet-to-come Holy Redeemer that you need to set yourself up for.

 

Capice?

Capice.

I can just picture you with your finger in a dyke shouting the Holy Redeemer is coming!

Just kidding.

But seriously, somehow that off-beat anecdote was a good explanation.

I won't set my bike up like that, but for you, that makes perfect sense.

I am all for freedom of choice, unless the choice is really stupid, and setting the oil level that high seems reasonable, and better than 5mm too low, which may be where mine is.

[badmotogoozer]

After a six month LOA I return to find Ratshit is still being a twat to anyone who doesn't conform to his absolute authority. Some folks is mechanics, some just play one on the internet.

[Guest ratchethack]

After a six month LOA I return to find Ratshit is still being a twat to anyone who doesn't conform to his absolute authority. Some folks is mechanics, some just play one on the internet.

Welcome back, Badmouth-o'-Loozer! It's been ever so long since you graced these pages with your trademark opportunistic, hit-and-run, carrion-feeding Forum Hyena behavior. I see that you haven't changed your Hyena spots one whit. No surprises there -- just wot we've all come to expect.

 

I do b'lieve you deserve every bit o' the special attention that you seem to've been craving here, based on both past and present performance! It's clearly time once again to dust off the FORUM HYENA AWARD in honor of your return!

 

The Badmouth-o'-Loozer Forum Hyena Award

 

The prestigious SINGLE HYENA

 

Today's FORUM HYENA AWARD winning post merits the prestigious SINGLE HYENA. (An award for even more egregious Hyena behavior, the DOUBLE HYENA award, is prepared, ready and waiting in the wings!)

 

SPECIAL DISCLAIMER: Posting of this award will be incomprehensible to those with profound reading disabilities. Remedial reading classes are available in most communities through local providers of Adult Learning classes. More specialized classes are typically available on a more limited basis for individuals with more severe comprehension dysfunctions. It’s truly a shame that some recipients of the award may never fully appreciate the significance of the special recognition in their name, due to illiteracy. But such is life…

 

HYENA BEHAVIORS ON THE FORUM – (REQUIREMENTS for the Forum Hyena Award)

 

PREREQUISITE: AN UNPROVOKED PERSONAL ATTACK of one poster on another in clear and indisputable violation of Forum rules. Do we all know what “unprovoked” means? May we see the hands of aspiring Forum Hyena Award recipients who rode the short bus to school? Very good! The Forum Hyena Award will be awarded when the BEHAVIOR exhibited in an UNPROVOKED PERSONAL ATTACK by the hyena on another poster meets 3 or more of the following criteria:

 

1. Malicious -- The offending hyena’s personal attack is clearly for the primary intent of harassment, badgering, bullying, insulting, or debasement of the recipient (target) of the hyena’s attention.

 

2. Irrelevant -- The offending hyena’s personal attack indicates no interest by the hyena whatsoever in the topic being discussed. NOTE: If there are no indicators in the personal attack that the hyena read what he’s responding to, it’s also clear that he has no interest in the topic being discussed.

 

3. Worthless -- The offending hyena’s personal attack provides no point, no intelligence on, experience with, or insight into the topic being discussed, and offers no conceivable value to Forum topic discussion whatsoever.

 

4. Barging -- The offending hyena’s personal attack bears no connection with or evidence of any prior involvement with the entire thread.

 

5. Ignorant -- The offending hyena’s personal attack provides no indication that the hyena has any comprehension or understanding of either the thread topic, or whatever it is that he’s actually responding to.

 

Forum congratulations to Badmouth-o'-Loozer himself, the unique and unprecedented Forum behavior of whom, in characteristic violation of Forum rules, has been the inspiration for this newly resurrected, soon to become Classic Forum award!

 

It's a mark of truly special character for Badmouth-o'-Loozer to return to the Forum after his absence to win the Forum Hyena Award by hitting all 5 of the FORUM HYENA AWARD criteria (only 3 of which are required) in a single post!

 

Another outstanding performance. Badmouth-o'-Loozer took this one down with a 5 for 5!

 

By all means, keep up the good work, Badmouth-o'-Loozer. As always, y'er knockin' 'em clean outta the park!

[badmotogoozer]

Yup. Still a twat.