carburetors anyone?

[Skeeve]

Agreed in full. I wouldn't have FI on my Yammerhammer big single trailie/adventure/dual sport for all the reasons you cite. But then, given the choice at zero additional cost either way (assuming superb, consistent state of tune in each case) I wouldn't have carbs on the V11. Or the cars, for that matter. <_>

...

And you?

 

Well, I must admit to a certain inherent Luddism. I like carbs, I recognize that they cannot achieve the absurd power levels seen in the MotoGP, w/ all the technowhizbang trickery like traction control, etc. that EFI offers. This is why I don't give a single hair off a rat's @ss about whatever the point standings are in MotoGP, etc: it ain't racing, it's a technological arms race; I'd rather see the same level of energy spent on putting a permanent moon base into action.

 

AHRMA racing? That's motorcycle racing! Carbs, cr@ppy brakes, mechanical limitations abound! Kinda like drilling holes in rubber wedges to dial in a cush drive, y'know what I mean?

 

Electronics hate me. When I go to use something battery powered, it will inevitably be drained, shorted or otherwise out of action, with great regularity. So I don't trust'em. OTOH, some of these things seem to have been fettled to the point where there just no way for the magic smoke to leak out anymore, w/o gross stupidity on my part. So those I distrust, but can get along with.

 

For outright reliability, it's hard to beat carbs w/ a vacuum advance like on my old Yammie XSEleven. Of course, not having to do a monthly carb balance is nice too. Time & technology marches on, & at some point I'll probably grow out of this preference.

 

Until then, it's all good!

[John A]

Skeeve I completly agree and I am also electronically challenged. I get those pesky solder leaks just after the smoke leaves. I've got it in my mind to build a mechanical fuel injection with some Hilborn injectors or similar just because I've never seen it on a Guzzi but someone must have done it.Anybody ever seen one?

[jrt]

Skeeve I completly agree and I am also electronically challenged. I get those pesky solder leaks just after the smoke leaves. I've got it in my mind to build a mechanical fuel injection with some Hilborn injectors or similar just because I've never seen it on a Guzzi but someone must have done it.Anybody ever seen one?

 

On a bike? No. But I think Mercedes had a (mechanical) fuel injected 6 cyl in the late '60's/early '70s? It should be do-able, but not necessarily pretty.

 

FWIW, I've seen single carb manifolds for the loopframes where someone (clever or otherwise) mounted a VW beetle carburetor to feed both cylinders.

[belgiancentauro]

Got any pics of your Centauro?

 

I do not have a website but there are some pictures on pauls website http://guzzi.daytona-it.com/

under pictures than marc detournay .

 

the new tubless spoken wheels are not on thes pictures , I will post some new pic in a few weeks , I am mounting a six speed V11 gearbox at the moment .

[belgiancentauro]

Got any pics of your Centauro?

[Guest slowpoke]

The reason why I asked about the carburetors is because I have a 2002 Yamaha FZ1 that has carbs and it runs like a champ! Smooth as silk and plenty of power. Did I say 'plenty of power'? I realize that the logistics of a change are difficult and expensive but it was interesting asking just the same.

[dlaing]

The reason why I asked about the carburetors is because I have a 2002 Yamaha FZ1 that has carbs and it runs like a champ! Smooth as silk and plenty of power. Did I say 'plenty of power'? I realize that the logistics of a change are difficult and expensive but it was interesting asking just the same.

 

I think Pierre was the one telling me his carbed sport got better gas mileage than his sporti, but the sporti made better power. Not sure about driveability, but I know he went through a few chips on the Sporti.

 

The Quat-D is more difficult to tune around.

I could loan you some stock mufflers if you want to try.

You will lose mid-range, get more top end, and the bike will probably be more driveable, but less fun.

[guzzijack]

Not a problem. I'm doing it with a V11Sport engine at the moment - with Mikuni Flatslides.

 

It's in the LM1000 Tonti framed Dr John replica coming together on the workshop floor as we speak. The engine was supplied without the injection system anyway so the only problem was how to run the sparks as there is obviously no distributor nor even an unmachined boss which could be played with. Cliff Jefferies' MyEcu will translate the signal from the V11Sport cam/phase sensor and provide output to the coils, so problem solved.

 

My understanding is that Dr John and the Guzzi engineering team wanted to use Mikuni flatslides on the 1100Sport carb anyway but existing ties with Dellorto, plus the lack of a Mikuni European R&D facility, plus the price hike bringing the cost of the complete bike to very near that of the shortly to be released 1100Sporti, killed that idea.

 

Anyhow, I considered putting Lectrons on it but a lack of interest from that quarter, John Wittner's recommendation to go with Mikunis and the availability of jets etc. has steered me in that direction.

 

GJ

[GuzziMoto]

I love flat slide carbs, but on a street bike I prefer well sorted F.I..The buttery smooth feel of a F.I. throttle compared to the feel of two flatslides. Not to mention the ability to compensate for alt., temp, etc. And F.I. will be on dirt bikes soon, probably within the next 5 years. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this one, but thats okay with me.

[sharperdill]

IMHO I have to agree, going to carbs is like taking a step back in the evolution of the guzzi.

 

I wonder though, if the same power is capable with carbs and the the power with carbs is not as smooth as with FI. What is the real reason to go with FI on a sport bike? From a manufacturing point of view its cheaper to manufacture. RD for one electrical system (just have multiple programs/maps for different engines), throttle bodies and injectors are cheaper (to the manufacture) because of less drilled holes and precision machined portions. One can argue that the electronics portion costs way more than the carbs alone. The electronics to the end consumer is more expensive not because of the cost it takes to build them, but because of the need to have them. The average ECU to build probably costs around $100 (tops) to manufacture. Its like selling a car and then selling the title for $1000 to the person who bought it after the car is gone and the person figures out he needs the title to prove its his (and to get it licensed).

 

The FI also keeps the customer bound to the dealer or shop that works on his bike if he wants any changes done. The average Joe/Jane blow will not have the equipment to dial in or change a fuel map on his own. This brings the customer in to throw more cash down maybe trade in his bike for a newer model, or it forces the seller to sell their guzzi for far cheaper than its worth on ebay because it will not start, stay running, or is low on power because of a poor shade tree tune. Going to carbs on the other hand brings the customer in to get the initial tune out of the way and then this gives the rider freedom to change the jets as he sees fit. If the rider gets into trouble by going to rich or to lean (hopefully for not to long) he can always go back to the jets he had when he came off the dyno.

 

I can see the need for FI on a cruiser (start up and smoothness issues) or a race bike, but not on a sport bike (something a gear-head is going to buy and attempt some tuning). When is the last time the average rider needed traction control adjusted because they could feel the rear-end getting a little squirly on them out of a corner.

 

There are probably holes in some of my points/theories.

[raz]

Like you say, as with most things these days the beauty of EFI is not low cost of development, but low marginal cost of producing it. That is of course much less benefit for Guzzi than it is for Honda.

 

I'm relatively young and unlike many others here, for me a carburettor is pure voodoo magic while EFI is simple as hell. For some reason, EFI seem to have entered the bike world for pollution reasons only (there are exceptions of course). This also means the producers have absolutely no incentive to make that EFI easily tunable to end-users, although the concept itself would allow for all sorts of end-user interfaces. In fact I think they need to show the opposite, like my (once existing) OEM sticker covering the ECU and proving no-one fiddle with it.

 

If I ever get the chance I'll buy a 1100 Sport carb because that is a piece of work. It's the last and the greatest of the big carbed Guzzis. But I'll keep my injected one too.

[luhbo]

....The average ECU to build probably costs around $100 (tops) to manufacture. ...

 

A WM15 costs probably less than 30$ for the manufacturer. These things are cheap.

 

Hubert

[Dan M]

I'm relatively young and unlike many others here, for me a carburettor is pure voodoo magic while EFI is simple as hell. For some reason, EFI seem to have entered the bike world for pollution reasons only (there are exceptions of course). This also means the producers have absolutely no incentive to make that EFI easily tunable to end-users, although the concept itself would allow for all sorts of end-user interfaces. In fact I think they need to show the opposite, like my (once existing) OEM sticker covering the ECU and proving no-one fiddle with it.

 

 

EFI entered the transportation world for pollution reasons. Manufacturers were forced to develop it to meet ever tightening emission standards. The benefit now is it works so much better when the technology is sorted and it is getting better and better all the time.

They can't make it tunable for road use though. Government wants it "tamper proof" - Remember caps on the adjusting screws of carburetors? Now they are doing it electronically.