Oil Filters and Oil

[guzzijack]

ARRRGH! God this gives me the screaming shits! How can something so simple cause such problems.

 

Okay then, try something a bit more complicated..............

 

 

 

 

 

........... like (pause for breath) TIMING GEARS

 

GJ

[Ryland3210]

ARRRGH! God this gives me the screaming shits! How can something so simple cause such problems.

Pete

 

Hi Pete,

 

As delivered, my bike idles at an indicated 600-700 ROM, when warmed up on a 90 degree day. Oil pressure drops to 12-15 psi. I'm using 20W50 Shell Rotella.

 

Is that enough pressure, or should I increase idle RPM?

 

Thanks,

John

[Guest ratchethack]

John, the RPMs should be 1100-1200 RPM, as Pete has explained so well, to protect the clutch hub splines from thrashing themselves to an early grave, ditto most of the drive train -- regardless of wot your pressure gauge reads on a warm day! Are you saying that your actual RPMs are even lower?! Now I'm not saying that your oil pressure is SAFE at an "indicated" 600-700 RPM either! That's all well and good that you see 12-14 psi on the gauge, but keep in mind the oil pressure sender makes contact at only 2-5 lbs., (.15-.35 Kg/cmq) and by the time you see this, damage has already been done at the big-end shells! I'd be as nervous as I ever get about my motor to let it idle anywhere near that low with the engine at operating temp regardless of ambient for BOTH reasons!

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[Dan M]

ARRRGH! God this gives me the screaming shits! How can something so simple cause such problems.

 

Pete

 

 

Right with ya Pete. The most important thing about oil is that it is clean. Modern oil is not going to break down unless conditions are very extreme. When there is engine damage ususally it can be traced to contaminated oil or no oil.

[pete roper]

Hi Pete,

 

As delivered, my bike idles at an indicated 600-700 ROM, when warmed up on a 90 degree day. Oil pressure drops to 12-15 psi. I'm using 20W50 Shell Rotella.

 

Is that enough pressure, or should I increase idle RPM?

 

Thanks,

John

 

Ryland as Ratch says 6-700 rpm is WAY too low and for a host of reasons this is not a good thing. Get that idle up to around the 1100-1200 mark, you *may* be able to do this simply with the air bleeds but my guess is that you'll need to up the speed with the throttle stop and then re-set the TPS and final get it spot on with the bleeds.

 

The idea that a very slow idle is *good* probably comes from the Harley crowd some of whom seem to think it's *cool* to have a machine that ticks over so slowly it sound like its stopped Thing is that while you can probably get away with this on a machine with a rolling element bottom end any engine with plain bearings relies on an adequate supply of oil at reasonable pressure to prevent boundary lubrication, (Bits rubbing together!) The slower the crank is spinning the slower the oil pump is spinning and the less oil is being delivered to the vital bits. Get that idle up!

 

Pete

[dlaing]

As delivered, my bike idles at an indicated 600-700 ROM,

My bike would surely stall at that speed.

I think your tach may be off.

If you have a PCIII you can hook it up to a computer to verify.

[Ryland3210]

My bike would surely stall at that speed.

I think your tach may be off.

If you have a PCIII you can hook it up to a computer to verify.

 

I've read about questionable tach readings before, hence the "indicated" in my message. Thanks for the reminder. I'll check it with my tach meter.

[Ryland3210]

Ryland as Ratch says 6-700 rpm is WAY too low and for a host of reasons this is not a good thing. Get that idle up to around the 1100-1200 mark, you *may* be able to do this simply with the air bleeds but my guess is that you'll need to up the speed with the throttle stop and then re-set the TPS and final get it spot on with the bleeds.

 

The idea that a very slow idle is *good* probably comes from the Harley crowd some of whom seem to think it's *cool* to have a machine that ticks over so slowly it sound like its stopped Thing is that while you can probably get away with this on a machine with a rolling element bottom end any engine with plain bearings relies on an adequate supply of oil at reasonable pressure to prevent boundary lubrication, (Bits rubbing together!) The slower the crank is spinning the slower the oil pump is spinning and the less oil is being delivered to the vital bits. Get that idle up!

 

Pete

 

Thanks, Pete.

 

I'm always happy to get it up! Thanks for the encouragement.

 

I understand about roller bearing bottom ends versus journals, etc., saw fit to install a pressure gauge so I can keep an eye on that, and agree with all you say, but I have no experence with the combination of air bleeds/throttle stop/TPS setting relating to increasing idle speed.

 

I recall reading elsewhere that the TPS voltage should be set to 150mv at fully closed. I don't mind checking this again, but why should that calibration change just because I increase idle speed.

 

What I need is a simple primer on the procedure, if that's practical. I'd appreciate your help on that, but if it's really complex to summarize, I could research the forum-perhaps you or Rathethack could point me in the right direction.

 

Meantime, not to worry. I learned about the clutch issue from your earlier advice, knew about the plain bearing lubrication issue, so I've been using the "choke", which I understand is nothing more than a fast idle device, to keep the revs up at 1100-1200 indicated. It sounds about right, but I'll check with a tach meter as Dave suggests.

[pete roper]

 

I recall reading elsewhere that the TPS voltage should be set to 150mv at fully closed. I don't mind checking this again, but why should that calibration change just because I increase idle speed.

 

.

 

The TPS sits on top of the throttle butterfly shaft. If you increase the idle by using the throttle stop screw what you are doing is opening the butterfly. As you open the butterfly you move the TPS so that its reading changes.

 

Setting everything up is a real juggling act. First you set the TPS with the bleed screws closed or nearly closed and if the idle is too low after this you have to increase it with the throttle stop screw. Then you have to re-set the TPS. When you've done this you will probably be able to adjust the idle speed to where it should be without missing or hunting by using the bleed screws. If it misses and hunts though you have to adjust the speed up or down again with the stop screws, re-set the TPS again and then fiddle with the bleeds again. Eventually it will all come good, you'll get a steady idle, the correct TPS setting and good fueling all the way through, (As long as the TB's are ballanced!)

 

Don't try to think of it as *magic* it's not. This is one of the major problems is that people are CONVINCED this stuff is difficult, it's not. All you have to do is THINK about what is happening with the throttle butterflies and the TPS, (Which is a simple potentiometer/rheostat.) and it all becomes clear. Then use LOGIC to see what you are doing and it will all fall into place!

 

Pete

[pete roper]

The TPS sits on top of the throttle butterfly shaft. If you increase the idle by using the throttle stop screw what you are doing is opening the butterfly. As you open the butterfly you move the TPS so that its reading changes.

 

Setting everything up is a real juggling act. First you set the TPS with the bleed screws closed or nearly closed and if the idle is too low after this you have to increase it with the throttle stop screw. Then you have to re-set the TPS. When you've done this you will probably be able to adjust the idle speed to where it should be without missing or hunting by using the bleed screws. If it misses and hunts though you have to adjust the speed up or down again with the stop screws, re-set the TPS again and then fiddle with the bleeds again. Eventually it will all come good, you'll get a steady idle, the correct TPS setting and good fueling all the way through, (As long as the TB's are ballanced!)

 

Don't try to think of it as *magic* it's not. This is one of the major problems is that people are CONVINCED this stuff is difficult, it's not. All you have to do is THINK about what is happening with the throttle butterflies and the TPS, (Which is a simple potentiometer/rheostat.) and it all becomes clear. Then use LOGIC to see what you are doing and it will all fall into place!

 

Pete

 

Oh and re-reading this I should point out that we aren't talking about altering the fuel map here, that opens another whole kettle of worms. all you are doing by setting things up this way is optimising the available map. In fact you may not even be doing that! Don't be afraid to experiment. If you find it pings its head off with the TPS set at 150Mv? Well, try another reading and see if that helps! You aren't going to destroy your motor on short test runs. If it still runs like a munter and the plugs are white then you will probably destroy stuff if you choose to ride across West Texas at WFO but as long as you are remotely sensitive that won't happen!

 

While you can get a lot *more* out of the 15M equipped bikes by employing a PCIII, Tuneboy or one of Cliff's units I urge people to actually get the stock system set up well first before going to all the extra hassle and expense. This isn't to say that these products don't work or even don't have a very good place in the overall scheme of things, simply that before you try these alternatives get the original system set up well. THEN when you get bored of how nice it is, THEN you can start looking at the serious hot-ups!

 

Pete

[dlaing]

If you find it pings its head off with the TPS set at 150Mv? Well, try another reading and see if that helps!

And use common sense and at least partially understand what is happening.

A higher TPS reading will almost always mean it will give it more fuel.

So, if fuel consumption is terrible and engine feels sluggish and the people riding behind you are passing out from the fumes, your TPS is probably set too high.

If engine is pinging and spark plugs are the color of grey ash, your TPS is probably set too low.

I would not recommend going outside of the recommend range by more than 50mV.

Although if you do and it runs like crud, just reset it and as Pete suggests I suppose no harm is done if you only rode around the block a few times.

I permanently installed test wires so I can test frequently.

It sure can go off a bit before noticing.

IMHO the time to be retentive about TPS setting is after you spent money on a custom map that you of course did a proper tune up prior to the dyno session.

Noting the TPS at that time and resetting it forever after at that number (±10mV or so...) will give you a happy bike.

People with no tuning software and aftermarket mufflers can certainly benefit from a few additional millivolts.

[VA Sean]

Congrats on the new ride.

 

Amsoil 5W40, UFI filter, no hose clamp.

Roper plate.

Experts at MPH recommendation.

Good enough for my peace of mind.

 

ditto

 

[Greg Field]

While thrashing really hard racing a japper sport bike up the Fraser River canyon the other week, my Billy Bob's oil (sump) temps reached over 140C on a calibrated dipstick thermometer. Temps like these are really pushing the capabilities of yak fat, in my opinion.

 

I totally respect Pete's opinion, but Guzzi engines have changed greatly since the V7, made in the era of yak fat. Even for that bike, Guzzi expected you to use the good multi-grade stuff, rather than the cheaper, single-grade yak fat. Nowadays, Guzzi engines put out twice the power nowadays and are jetted leaner so they run MUCH hotter, despite oil coolers and the like that they carry now. Bearings are the same, as he points out, which means they carry twice the load as they did when yak fat was all the rage. Use yak fat if you like, but I won't be. Oil--even $14/liter 10w-60--is stunningly cheap compared to the parts that that oil protects. Yes, I do get oils at a discount, but I also get parts at a discount. The better economy is in protecting the parts as well as is possible to do, in my opinion.

[John in Leeds]

Back on the oil subject - I've been using Texaco Havoline 5/40 fully synthetic in the car and the bikes. I buy it at around £12 for 5litres and that's really cheap. Works fine in the Turbo diesel and the V11 but foams badly in the Highland. So have gone back to tried and trusted Motul. Has anyone had any experience with this Texaco stuff?

[pete roper]

 

I totally respect Pete's opinion, but Guzzi engines have changed greatly since the V7, made in the era of yak fat. Even for that bike, Guzzi expected you to use the good multi-grade stuff, rather than the cheaper, single-grade yak fat. Nowadays, Guzzi engines put out twice the power nowadays and are jetted leaner so they run MUCH hotter, despite oil coolers and the like that they carry now. Bearings are the same, as he points out, which means they carry twice the load as they did when yak fat was all the rage. Use yak fat if you like, but I won't be.

 

Greg, my intention wasn't to try and persuade people to use the really cheap stuff. Merely to point out that if changed regularly it will do the job more than adequately. I wholeheartedly agree that using a higher quality oil will give you a greater 'Margin of safety' especially in extreme conditions but in real terms any 20/50 will almost certainly do the job. If I was riding across the Simpson desert in January or Death Valley in August then I'd definitely be wanting to have the very best protection I could get in an air cooled motor but for the sort of riding I do, where I do it I remain convinced that Yak Fat is fine.

 

Interestingly the fat I use in the Griso is Penrite HPR15. A 'Synthetic Fortified' 15/60 made by a local refiner who have a very good reputation and have a long history of providing oils for air-cooled dungers. Interestingly when I compared the Penrite with the previous Mobil One I'd used before it was immediately apparent that the Penrite was a lot cleaner. To me that would imply that it was able to do a better job of ring sealing than the Super-Bling Mobil One Racing 4T.

 

I suppose my real message I was trying to impart was that there's no point dying in a ditch over 'Which oil' to use. By all means use whatever you like, I certainly wouldn't suggest using something really horrid like a Supermarket Brand 10/40 in an air cooled donk, but if you're stuck in the back of beyond and can't find your favorite brand there is no point in getting all panicky, you can add a bit of anything halfway decent to get you home.

 

One other caveat. Avoid friction modified oils like the plague! FM oils will almost certainly glaze your bores! They really don't work in air cooled engines.

 

Pete