Throttle Position Sensor

[Dimitris]

Haven't found the time yet to go for a custom map. But I found the right person, who is specialized in dynojet tuning (mainly Ducatis), so I hope that I will have a good map made there..

For the time being I have loaded the map made for Mistral mufflers and Stucchi crossovers and probably stock airbox (my combi is Mistral muffs with Mistral xover and lidless kit FBF), which runs fine in high revs and good also in low-mid (but I know that it should be more powerful in low-mid range). The ready-made map for my combi, although is running very good in low-mid range, it makes but work in high revs. Todd tried and gave me the opprtunity to test another ready-made map (a short of blended) but unfortunately I had the same problems in high revs.

 

I made a blend of my own with the maps I mentioned above but I didn't tried it yet due to lack of free time. But soon I will load it and see.

 

The good thing is that I am quite satisfied with the current map (Stucchi xover....strange, isnt it?) so as to keep it until the Dynojet tuning day comes...

 

I think that my TPS is set to 450mV (accidentally because 1,5 month ago, during the last TB balance and TPS reset, I had set the TPS to 150 mv disconnected, then made the cylinder balance and forgot to recheck the TPS voltage. After many days I checked it with the voltometer and the indication was .450 mV).

 

Now I am waiting the VDST from Todd so as to start the forum's procedure from the beginning, step by step, before going to the dyno.

[v11cafe]

Useful links for tps adjustment/fuel system theory etc.

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12204

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13188

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12056

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13385

 

plus.......

http://www.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html

http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...=13426&st=0

[dlaing]

I lowered my TPS from between 140 and 150mV to a little less than 110mV and now the bike seems to be running much better. More response at higher rpms. Cured some popping, although that could have been the grease on the butterfly shaft top or the TB re-balance.

After a 155 mile tank fuel mileage went up about 2MPG, to about 38-39MPG (US). I used to get 37MPG on such a ride, but the past year I have been getting 35-36MPG.

It is only one tank, so I am reserving judgment of a proven improvement, but I am optimistic that an improvement has occurred and I am now wondering if the 150mV in the manual is WRONG (or maybe the engine needs to be running with linkage disconnected and then obtain the 150mV reading, but that is a pain to do.)

This could be why so many have had success adjusting the TPS at idle, rather than disconnected.

I plan to set it to a nice round 100mV and go back to my stock Map, since my map tweaks may now all be off.

[v11cafe]

(or maybe the engine needs to be running with linkage disconnected and then obtain the 150mV reading, but that is a pain to do.)

This could be why so many have had success adjusting the TPS at idle, rather than disconnected.

Explain that...don't really understand it

[dlaing]

It can be measured with key on, engine NOT running, or if you follow the Will Creedon instructions posted by Carl Alison at thisoldtractor.com, you have to get the engine idling, mostly on effort of the left cylinder(since right TB is completely closed, aside from bypass and leakage).

Like we see variations at the ~500mV reading depending on whether or not the engine is running or not, we will also see variations with linkage disconnected.

So, the 150mV may be correct if the engine is idling, it is just difficult to get the engine to idle in that state. Possibly not good for the engine, either. The left cylinder is working hard in that state, and the engine pulses at a low idle probably aren't good for the main bearings, etc.

Unfortunately 150mV running disconnected does not correspond to a specific voltage when we have key on, engine off.

100mV might work fine?????

The Micha method is making more sense now, but I am still not sold on it.

The variation between 150mV running or not running, could explain why those that tried setting to 150mV had trouble getting to ~520mV and running right. IF they had set the 150mV with engine running, then the idle may have been right at about 520mV????

Using the Micha method they simply set it at idle, with engine running.

I also liked the idea of measuring at WOT, but again, that is not practical with engine running, although maybe we could depend on the redline engine cutoff I would prefer not to...

[v11cafe]

Just to give you an idea....

set tps zero angle 150mv key on/eng off everyhthing disconnected

then set RITS at 465mv (just a start value) ....and disconnect multimeter,

connect rod. ....connect throttle balancer, and balance with LITS..if idle low

increase RITS..balance again with LITS.....and so on until u r about 1000rpm idle

and balanced.

Now connect rod. and do part throttle balancing with rod screw (bypasses closed )and

balance finally at idle by opening the bypasses.

What I mean is don't look at multimeter during tuning...

tune the bike and then check (out of curiosity) with multimeter tps idle etc.

 

Adjusting tps zero angle (150mv)with engine running...is a torture for ur bike

I wouldn't do that

 

Wait for ur finds

[dlaing]

Just to give you an idea....

set tps zero angle 150mv key on/eng off everyhthing disconnected

then set RITS at 465mv (just a start value) ....and disconnect multimeter,

connect rod.....connect throttle balancer, and balance with LITS..if idle low

increase RITS..balance again with LITS.....and so on until u r about 1000rpm idle

and balanced.Then do part throttle balancing withe rod screw (bypasses closed )and

balance finally at idle by opening the bypasses.

What I mean is don't look at multimeter during tuning...

tune the bike and then check (out of curiosity) with multimeter tps idle etc.

 

Adjusting tps zero angle (150mv)with engine running...is a torture for ur bike

I wouldn't do that

 

Wait for ur finds

I think you are right about idling disconnected being torture.

Here are the instructions for torturing the bike

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/tps/TPS.html

I have set the TPS using roughly the forum method many times with variations in technique that are similar to what you just outlined, sometimes using the RITS.

I have gotten good results, especially after we defined everything, but the biggest problem is the fuel consumption.

I used to get about 30-33MPG on short commutes and 37MPG canyon carving or freeway touring.

Lately, since I have mastered the forum method, I have been getting 29-30MPG and 34-37MPG.

These are Veglia numbers, so actual fuel consumption is WORSE.

The good news is that I just gave ~110mV a try and my fuel consumption seems to have improved about 3 MPG. Another tank measurement or two will be necessary to confirm.

I am not sold on the 150mV setting. Everything else you said makes excellent sense, and perhaps those instructions should replace the forum instructions, but we need to resolve the correct TPS readings, both disconnected and connected.

I suspect 100mV and 500mV may be the true intended numbers for the early V11 Six Speeds.

Complicating matters, I suspect I am getting the air leaks at the ends of the butterfly shaft, that Docc indicated.

The solution to that may be (counter-intuitively) more bypass, but tweaking the trim to run richer.

But we should not all need the trim setting software and a CO meter, and a proper fix would be a TB overhaul replacing the O-rings.

What happens to your bike if you lower the TPS setting below 150mV?

My bike seems to run better about ~110mV than in the 140-160mV zone.

[v11cafe]

set tps zero angle 150mv key on/eng off everything disconnected,

then set RITS at 465mv (just a start value) ....and disconnect multimeter,

....connect throttle balancer, and balance with LITS..if idle rpm is low

increase RITS..balance again with LITS.....and so on until u r about 1000rpm idle

and balanced.

Now connect rod. and do part throttle balancing with rod screw (bypasses closed )and

balance finally at idle by opening the bypasses.

 

Sorry for the mistake....I edited my previous post and above is the right version.

 

When u use both RITS and LITS , balance at idle is done with rod disconnected.

Bike has no problem because you use a start tps value, so the engine can idle.

 

Now for the zero tps angle 150mv...correct me if I am wrong

From what I know...the potentiometer is one of the ...spies ... of Ecu.

Ecu has a fuel map and an ignition map flashed from factory ...

takes reading from tps in mv which translates it in throttle opening angle..(top on the info from other sensors)

then corresponds the angle with fuel and ignition map...

 

So for a stock V11...... or better for any weber 15M ....150mv is zero angle as Moto Guzzi suggests.

Bikes leaving the factory are not set for maximum performance..they have to pass emissions

to be civilized , but still have enough power etc.

 

From that point u can play with the zero tps angle.

But what happens when u go to smaller values 100mv or higher 200mv+???

 

I think that with tps 100mv Ecu reads throttle closed

so injectors give less fuel... like at idle and timing map is almost 0.

Bikes usually run best when u come close to the

border between rich and lean mixture.

So if u feel that bike is better with 100mv

the reason may be that with the PCIII u have added much fuel at low range

and when u reduse it with that trick(100mv)...bike feels better.

Also u have better economy...

But it is only a trick...not the rule.... 150mv is right

 

Now when you use say...200mv happens the opposite ecu reads that

throttle is open ...injectors give more fuel while u are still at idle

but timing is more advanced than u need...

a V11with no PCIII...open cans and filter...may run stronger that way

but it will not be smooth frm idle to 5500rpm(???)

because timing will be off ,

when at full throttle the bike would run better..timing map is at the peak

fuel max....so no prob.

 

If u have the time read the FAQ section of http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/

The people know the theory..and explain it 100 times better than me.

 

I am on vacation so.... V11 is saved from my experiments for the next two weeks.

[dlaing]

set tps zero angle 150mv key on/eng off everything disconnected,

then set RITS at 465mv (just a start value) ....and disconnect multimeter,

....connect throttle balancer, and balance with LITS..if idle rpm is low

increase RITS..balance again with LITS.....and so on until u r about 1000rpm idle

and balanced.

Now connect rod. and do part throttle balancing with rod screw (bypasses closed )and

balance finally at idle by opening the bypasses.

 

Sorry for the mistake....I edited my previous post and above is the right version.

 

When u use both RITS and LITS , balance at idle is done with rod disconnected.

Bike has no problem because you use a start tps value, so the engine can idle.

I did not notice any mistake.

I think your instructions may be better, but more complicated, than the "forum" instructions because they take into account balancing by air screws, and if both LITS and RITS are set, I think it may hold a good state of tune longer.

But I think there is room to polish the instructions because it is easy to get stuck without an idle and with the balance thrown off.

I'll get back to modifying your instructions later.

 

Now for the zero tps angle 150mv...correct me if I am wrong

From what I know...the potentiometer is one of the ...spies ... of Ecu.

Ecu has a fuel map and an ignition map flashed from factory ...

takes reading from tps in mv which translates it in throttle opening angle..(top on the info from other sensors)

then corresponds the angle with fuel and ignition map...

 

So for a stock V11...... or better for any weber 15M ....150mv is zero angle as Moto Guzzi suggests.

Bikes leaving the factory are not set for maximum performance..they have to pass emissions

to be civilized , but still have enough power etc.

 

From that point u can play with the zero tps angle.

But what happens when u go to smaller values 100mv or higher 200mv+???

 

I think that with tps 100mv Ecu reads throttle closed

so injectors give less fuel... like at idle and timing map is almost 0.

Bikes usually run best when u come close to the

border between rich and lean mixture.

So if u feel that bike is better with 100mv

the reason may be that with the PCIII u have added much fuel at low range

and when u reduse it with that trick(100mv)...bike feels better.

Also u have better economy...

But it is only a trick...not the rule.... 150mv is right

In this case, I don't have the ability to "correct you if you are wrong"

It is only my theory that 150mV is wrong and somewhere around 100mV is right.

I think the factory messed up and mapped the ECU at 100mV.

Proving this may be impossible, unless I worked on as many V11s as a professional Guzzi mechanic.

But I think it is not a trick, it is the rule, 100mV is right! ...or maybe not

 

I still have a PCIII but I am not using it. I am using TuneBoy with a modified PCIII map. Now that I have seen the light, and am now running the "correct" 100mV, I shall remove the maps and go back to stock.

 

I redid my TPS and balance yesterday roughly following your instructions. But setting TPS to 98-105mV and engine off idle to 525mV which gave me about 545mV engine running.

I had more trouble getting the balance right using the RITS method because it is slower and the engine got too hot.

But eventually I got it all dialed in and the balance is now better than it was when I used only the LITS and simply set the air screws to equal turns out. I think it is worth the extra trouble, at least for my bike where I needed half turn on one TB and a full turn on the other TB air bypass screw.

 

 

If u have the time read the FAQ section of http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/

The people know the theory..and explain it 100 times better than me.

 

I am on vacation so.... V11 is saved from my experiments for the next two weeks.

I have read their FAQ a few times. Good stuff.

Have a great vacation!

Where do Greeks go for vacation? Greece???

Smart(or cash poor) San Diegans go to San Diego! But we'd rather be on Greek islands...or Hawaiian islands.

[dlaing]

This post is inconsistent with my theory. If it was consistent, his idle would not be too high at 520mV

I went through and adjusted the tps to the 150mv with the throttle bodies disconnected and the the idle screw backed out. Please remember this was back in 2001 when there was not much information out on this fuel injection system. Once the throttle bodies were syncronized and idle set, the tps voltage on my bike was very low (I believe it was around 300mv). If I had set the tps voltage up to 520mv, I would have a really high idle speed. Now there are some variables that caused the tps. voltage to be lower (once the idle was set). The early bikes had a stall problem with the valves set to factory specs when hot, I used the Raceco valve lash specs. which gave the cam less overlap thus raising the idle speed 300+ rpm. With this valve lash, the bike also could idle down lower (which to me sounded better anyway, lope, lope, lope). So turning the idle speed down 300 rpm from the valve lash and then lowering the idle speed down to a rock solid 1000 rpm where it sounded so lovely, my tps voltage was lower. This was not a bad thing, I just had to have the right map for the PCIII.

Again, someone whose idle is too high using 150 and 525mV.

There was someone else who got too low of an idle at 150 and 525mV, but I can't remember who.

In any case, these do not support my theory, but I think I am going to stick with 100mV.

That is exactly what I did based on what MI told me. They don't use the 150mv starting point. They had me set all the engine parameters to what they said. Bleeds to 1 turn open, idle at 1050 +- 50, balanced at 1800 to 2000rpm and THEN set the TPS to 3.6 deg. Which he said would be around 485mv. Mine was spot on this when I tested it. (Well actually it read 483mv...but very close anyway.)

 

On my bike I could never get the "stock factory settings to work at all. If I set my TPS to 150mv with everything disconnected, then hooked everything up and tried to set the idle to 1050 and the TPS to 525mv...my bleed screws would have to be all the way closed! I tried it a number of times changing and tweaking things to get all the "suggested" factory parameters to work. Nothing worked well for me until I did it Micha's way. Finally I have a bike with a stable idle speed regardless of temperature and FINALLY it doesn't ping anymore under hard acceleration. It is also much smoother taking off from a standing start than before.

 

Given that...I'll keep the 485mv setting! But of course your mileage may vary. I may have a wonky TPS for all I know.

 

Randy

 

Ti pipes and Ecu are definetely different.

My cafe sport (2004), worked perfectly out of the box.

Now, with the Ti kit...I don't know...tried to adjusted Guzzi way(instructions mention 2.9 TPS)...idle was very low, and lot of baf!baf! in throttle bodies at idle ,...tried the forum's way ...Tps 3.8...better in idle (1100 rpm),... but still missing...(baf!) occasionaly and think it overheats( the pipes got a nice blue color)....believe it's leaner than before.

Wish, I could bring it to your service manager...it's such a nice bike when it works well.

Is 2.9 the right TPS setting for front crossover bikes 2003+?My bike is closed loop with lambda.

Any info welcome...

You struggled using the 150mV methods, but eventually got it working, but only after finessing the RITS and LITS and the air bypass adjuster screws.

What were your final numbers? Air bypass turns out? Idle speed? mV at idle?

According to Guzzi you should be at 1050RPM, half a turn out on each(which is in my opinion wrong), and 465mV.

It seems to me that the forum method did not work for you because of balance issues.

The 150mV does not work for me because of fuel consumption issues.

I recommend others who experience sub 30MPG to try a lower disconnected TPS setting, but because you will be running leaner, beware of signs of being too lean; popping, ping, unstable idle, melting spark plugs, etc.

[v11cafe]

I'll try everything u suggest when I return...so we can compare numbers

tps at 100mv..etc

V 11 stays home since I'll travel with my... mule(Mille gt),

or the Cali...direction Alps and maybe Mandello at the return trip...

although in August MG factory and museum are closed.

Greek islands are ...super but u don't want to drive a Guzzi there..

sun and sea all day yes...but I prefer to tour the Alps.

[raz]

Just don't forget these two facts:

1. Using eg. Raceco 0.25/0.20 mm (instead of tighter) valve lash increases the idle speed a lot, nothing else altered.
   
2. Using the bleeder screws you can also increase the idle speed a good deal
   

Personally I've found my particular bike is really hard to tune with a bit tight lash while a Raceco setting seems to make it really really happy. Not only does the idle speed go up, it's also much much more rigid and stable.

[dlaing]

Yah, I have to give the RaceCo specs a try.

I have been running .15/.20, but they need frequent adjustment.

Pete Roper recommended .10/.15, so I am reluctant to move towards the RaceCo numbers, but I am certainly willing to give it a try.

I'll bet at least one of the valves has tightened up on me lately as it has been more difficult to maintain a good idle, especially when hot.

 

Another thing to remember is that according to MPH http://www.mphcycles.com/Technical/tpsexcel3.htm , the ECU reads idle as 4 degrees (~570mV) or less, so you don't want to set the idle TPS too high.

I am not sure what the implications are, but it is better to play it safe.

 

It is interesting that the idle does not fall between the bottom two rows of cells, but one up.

And the bottom three rows don't vary much.

It almost looks like the idle TPS should be set to 1.5 degrees or maybe 1.99 degrees.

FWIW the bottom three ignition timing are also nearly identical

But the offset map has an interesting difference in the 2000rpm range.

Maybe that is why some of us have gotten popping there when our tuning has slipped.

When I went from 150 to 100mv the popping there went away. I think it may be related because when I changed the TPS to 100mV, I pushed the cells closer to where they need to be, atleast between 2000 and 3000 rpm.

I'd like to see the Direct Link screen shots if anyone has them

[Bruce Reader]

G'day everyone.

 

I found this while on the site mentioned below. With people setting up the bike switching on and off to stop bikes overheating between steps- This may help explain differences in initial idle setting and what you find on your first ride down the street.

 

 

www.moto-one.com.au/performance/ducati2vthrottleb.html

 

'One very important thing to know about the 1.5M ECU is that it runs rich for the first 3,000 rotations every time you start the engine after turning the key or kill switch off and then on. I just thought (while typing this) that I don’t know what happens if the engine stalls and you restart it – I’ve never tested that. So best to assume it does it every time.

 

And this is not just when it’s cold. Every time! Even when it’s hot. If you start it up and check the idle mixture quickly and it’s 5% CO after idling for 3 or so minutes (3,000 rotations at 1,100 RPM idle is about 3 minutes) the mixture will drop to maybe 1% CO or so and it’ll idle like crap. I usually allow at least 4 to 5 minutes for the mixture to settle after starting the engine. It’s very annoying when you’re in a hurry, as you have to turn the engine off then back on to initiate the setting procedure with the diagnostic tools, but that’s how it is.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[dlaing]

G'day,

I missed reading through that one.

Good stuff. Thanks mate!

 

Reading that and reading the FIM stuff again has me inspired to re-do the instructions.

 

I found this bit interesting:

"Usually the voltage at this point will be in the range of 90 to 170mV, most likely around 100." He then goes on to say set it to 150mV.

I wonder why most are likely around 100mV. This supports (weakly) my 100mV theory. Is it all about emissions?