Throttle Position Sensor

[Dimitris]

That is correct. The "choke" is really a fast-idle lever. First, follow the cable to the throttle body, look there when pulling the fast-idle lever and try to understand it's function. It is pretty straight-forward: the fast-idle is just a cam that moves the throttle exactly like the idle screw. There is nothing more to it. So when you back off the fast-idle lever you should also make sure that cam is completely backed off from influencing the throttle. If it does, there is a screw (head down) somewhere down there that you can use to adjust it. There is a good picture here somewhere, I'll try to find it and add it later.

 

Thank you Raz,

Everything understood.

If you could find that pic it would be very helpful!

[v11cafe]

I see. It would seem that the procedure has now ossified to become dogma. So be it.

 

Still, one wonders if any of the creators of this procedure have tuned a bike that has the Guzzi race ECU and pipes? If not, how can the procedure be proven or even tested for these machines? If so, maybe it works for some machines under the particular use that those owners put their machines to but wouldn't for others?

 

Here's a little story. We at our shop have had two '04s that owners themselves fitted with the Ti pipes and ECU. These folks followed their normal tuning procedures and never could get the bikes to run right. These stumbled and hesitated under certain conditions of part throttle and small throttle changes and weren't as smooth-running as before and one pinged badly. Both owners later sold their V11s on consignment or traded them in because they could never get them to run right. One of these folks was an auto mechanic. In both cases, with 10 minutes of tuning, our service manager had them completely sweet-running. One he told me was the best-running V11 he had ever ridden, and he has ridden hundreds of V11s. Also, he has personally owned three V11s that had the Ti pipes and one with other pipes. He insisted I take it for a ride, and it ran perfectly. I deliberately tried to make it misbehave but it didn't. It ran as good as mine with a PCIII and custom map, even though it had neither, just a proper tuning for Ti pipes.

 

You might at least consider that the Guzzi race ECU is different enough that it could benefit from altered tuning compared to that of the normal ECU.

Ti pipes and Ecu are definetely different.

My cafe sport (2004), worked perfectly out of the box.

Now, with the Ti kit...I don't know...tried to adjusted Guzzi way(instructions mention 2.9 TPS)...idle was very low, and lot of baf!baf! in throttle bodies at idle ,...tried the forum's way ...Tps 3.8...better in idle (1100 rpm),... but still missing...(baf!) occasionaly and think it overheats( the pipes got a nice blue color)....believe it's leaner than before.

Wish, I could bring it to your service manager...it's such a nice bike when it works well.

Is 2.9 the right TPS setting for front crossover bikes 2003+?My bike is closed loop with lambda.

Any info welcome...

[raz]

Thank you Raz,

Everything understood.

If you could find that pic it would be very helpful!

This is the picture (from this thread) that I meant but it doesn't show the fast idle adjustment screw very well. Anyway, if the cam does not back off completely when the fast idle lever is disengaged, first you try the cable adjuster at the lever. If that is not enough there is a screw with head pointing down, just above the "g" in "Right Air Bypass Screw" in the picture. Loosen that and you can move the cam.

[Dimitris]

Mille Grazie Raz!

[dlaing]

I was just reading the instructions included with the Guzzi Ti pipes. They specify different tuning for the bikes with the front crossover and the bikes without the crossover. Fr the non-crossover bikes, it says set the TPS to 3.8 degrees +/- 0.1 degree, which it says corresponds to 550 mV +/- 5mV. For the crossover bikes it says set the TPS to 2.9 degrees +/- 0.1 degree, which it says corresponds to 465 mV +/- 5mV.

 

Perhaps this difference is meaningful and needs to be taken into account in the procedure set forth in this thread?

Bump!

Ti pipes and Ecu are definetely different.

My cafe sport (2004), worked perfectly out of the box.

Now, with the Ti kit...I don't know...tried to adjusted Guzzi way(instructions mention 2.9 TPS)...idle was very low, and lot of baf!baf! in throttle bodies at idle ,...tried the forum's way ...Tps 3.8...better in idle (1100 rpm),... but still missing...(baf!) occasionaly and think it overheats( the pipes got a nice blue color)....believe it's leaner than before.

Wish, I could bring it to your service manager...it's such a nice bike when it works well.

Is 2.9 the right TPS setting for front crossover bikes 2003+?My bike is closed loop with lambda.

Any info welcome...

From what Greg said in the above quote, 2.9 is what you should use, but since it does not seem to be working some time consuming experimentation may be in order. Unless Greg has more info...

I tried loading the Ti map using my Tuneboy, but it ran lousy at low rpms. If you ever find the right TPS setting, let me know!

If you are only getting an idle of 1100 rpm at 3.8 TPS, I'd suspect that either your 150mV setting is off, or your valve adjusters are too tight. How many turns out are the air bypass screws?

If the TPS is 150mV disconnected and the valves are set to .15/.20mm or looser, than you either need a pro, or some experimentation.

Since the idle is too low at the recommended 2.9, try lowering the TPS disconnected from 150mV to 125mV, back the air bypass screws out one full turn, and then set the idle to 1100rpm. This will probably result in an idle TPS close to what our instructions recommend for the non-Ti ECU, 3.5 or 521mV.

If it runs worse try completely closing the air bypass screws and increasing the idle TPS until you get an 1100RPM idle, this may give a very high idle TPS reading, but if it works, who cares.

Experiment with the disconnected TPS setting, but I would not go below 100mV.

As always, make sure that when reading the TPS disconnected that the "choke" cam is visibly not making contact and that the right side idle set screw is not making contact. I would not be surprise if you find that the TPS is set above 150mV.

To save time, you could try measuring the TPS at WOT. It should read about 4.86V, so if it reads above 4.89V or below 4.83V there is a good chance the disconnect TPS reading is not set to 150mV. Note, The volt meter is not as accurate in the V range as it is in the mV range, otherwise we could say to make sure it is between 4.85V and 4.87V. If your volt meter only reads to a tenth of a volt, like 4.8V or 4.9V that won't be accurate enough to be at all meaningful, but if it reads 5.0 or higher, I would surely double check the disconnected TPS reading.

I only mention measuring at WOT because it can save you time. Please be aware that it is not nearly as accurate.

[dlaing]

This is the picture (from this thread) that I meant but it doesn't show the fast idle adjustment screw very well. Anyway, if the cam does not back off completely when the fast idle lever is disengaged, first you try the cable adjuster at the lever. If that is not enough there is a screw with head pointing down, just above the "g" in "Right Air Bypass Screw" in the picture. Loosen that and you can move the cam.

Here is a photo, note this photo was taken in the connected state...

Raz, is the screw you are talking about is the one with yellow paint on it?

I usually loosen the nut on the cable(right side of image), but this looks like a better way to go!!!

You should see a gap when the "choke" is properly disconnected.

Note this photo gives a good shot of the Air Bypass Screw (upper left of image).

[Dimitris]

Dave this photo explains everything! Thank you so much! I will update when I do the cylinder balancing and the TPS set.

Although I have Mistral pipes, Mistral crossover, BMC airfilter and Ferracci lid air kit (+PCIIusb) I will do the steps according to the forum's procedure and I'll set the TPS to 150mV (disconnected) and .521mV (connected). Hope it'll work....

[raz]

Raz, is the screw you are talking about is the one with yellow paint on it?

I usually loosen the nut on the cable(right side of image), but this looks like a better way to go!!!

You should see a gap when the "choke" is properly disconnected.

Yes, thanks. Good picture, it's a pity it's unfocused. Adjusting at the cable screw should work too but I recall situations where it's not good enough (the cam was too far away, fast idle not working at all)

[v11cafe]

Bump!

 

From what Greg said in the above quote, 2.9 is what you should use, but since it does not seem to be working some time consuming experimentation may be in order. Unless Greg has more info...

I tried loading the Ti map using my Tuneboy, but it ran lousy at low rpms. If you ever find the right TPS setting, let me know!

If you are only getting an idle of 1100 rpm at 3.8 TPS, I'd suspect that either your 150mV setting is off, or your valve adjusters are too tight. How many turns out are the air bypass screws?

If the TPS is 150mV disconnected and the valves are set to .15/.20mm or looser, than you either need a pro, or some experimentation.

Since the idle is too low at the recommended 2.9, try lowering the TPS disconnected from 150mV to 125mV, back the air

bypass screws out one full turn, and then set the idle to 1100rpm. This will probably result in an idle TPS close to what our instructions recommend for the non-Ti ECU, 3.5 or 521mV.

If it runs worse try completely closing the air bypass screws and increasing the idle TPS until you get an 1100RPM idle, this may give a very high idle TPS reading, but if it works, who cares.

Experiment with the disconnected TPS setting, but I would not go below 100mV.

As always, make sure that when reading the TPS disconnected that the "choke" cam is visibly not making contact and that the right side idle set screw is not making contact. I would not be surprise if you find that the TPS is set above 150mV.

To save time, you could try measuring the TPS at WOT. It should read about 4.86V, so if it reads above 4.89V or below 4.83V there is a good chance the disconnect TPS reading is not set to 150mV. Note, The volt meter is not as accurate in the V range as it is in the mV range, otherwise we could say to make sure it is between 4.85V and 4.87V. If your volt meter only reads to a tenth of a volt, like 4.8V or 4.9V that won't be accurate enough to be at all meaningful, but if it reads 5.0 or higher, I would surely double check the disconnected TPS reading.

I only mention measuring at WOT because it can save you time. Please be aware that it is not nearly as accurate.

 

Valve clearances ok, think tps everything disconnected is Ok 150mv...but I took the reading using a ducati diagnostic tool

which connects straight to the cable of tps...next time I'll use the traditional way using a volt meter, to check if there are differences, between the readings...Bypass screws are open more than 1 turn, closer to 2 turns...I'll have to look more to it...you gave me some ideas...but I suspect that the lambda sensor makes fun to me...closed loop is no good when you want to alter things

 

Thanks

[Ryland3210]

Bump!

 

From what Greg said in the above quote, 2.9 is what you should use, but since it does not seem to be working some time consuming experimentation may be in order. Unless Greg has more info...

I tried loading the Ti map using my Tuneboy, but it ran lousy at low rpms. If you ever find the right TPS setting, let me know!

If you are only getting an idle of 1100 rpm at 3.8 TPS, I'd suspect that either your 150mV setting is off, or your valve adjusters are too tight. How many turns out are the air bypass screws?

If the TPS is 150mV disconnected and the valves are set to .15/.20mm or looser, than you either need a pro, or some experimentation.

Since the idle is too low at the recommended 2.9, try lowering the TPS disconnected from 150mV to 125mV, back the air bypass screws out one full turn, and then set the idle to 1100rpm. This will probably result in an idle TPS close to what our instructions recommend for the non-Ti ECU, 3.5 or 521mV.

If it runs worse try completely closing the air bypass screws and increasing the idle TPS until you get an 1100RPM idle, this may give a very high idle TPS reading, but if it works, who cares.

Experiment with the disconnected TPS setting, but I would not go below 100mV.

As always, make sure that when reading the TPS disconnected that the "choke" cam is visibly not making contact and that the right side idle set screw is not making contact. I would not be surprise if you find that the TPS is set above 150mV.

To save time, you could try measuring the TPS at WOT. It should read about 4.86V, so if it reads above 4.89V or below 4.83V there is a good chance the disconnect TPS reading is not set to 150mV. Note, The volt meter is not as accurate in the V range as it is in the mV range, otherwise we could say to make sure it is between 4.85V and 4.87V. If your volt meter only reads to a tenth of a volt, like 4.8V or 4.9V that won't be accurate enough to be at all meaningful, but if it reads 5.0 or higher, I would surely double check the disconnected TPS reading.

I only mention measuring at WOT because it can save you time. Please be aware that it is not nearly as accurate.

 

There is an interaction between idle throttle opening and air bypass. At lower throttle opening, say 2.9 degrees, it should be possible to reach 1100 RPM simply by opening the bypass screws more (turning left, counterclockwise). This will cause the idle and small throttle openings mixtures to run leaner. That is usually not what is necessary when installing a freer exhaust system, and I find that surprising.

 

Deliberately adjusting the TPS to a lower voltage with throttle closed will lower the TPS voltage throughout the range of throttle openings, making it leaner, and changing the ignition timing as well.

 

Likewise, to make it richer throughout the range of throttle openings, one would set the TPS higher than 150 mv with throttles closed. To make it richer at just above idle, one would want a higher idle TPS voltage and less air bypass to achieve 1100 RPM. As luck would have it, after adjusting my '04 Cafe Sport using the recommended procedure, I had installed Staintunes without baffles and removed the airbox cover. In spite of that, the dyno test indicated near perfect operation, so I never had to resort to experimenting. That also indicated to me that the stock tuning was on the rich side.

 

As a result, advising on what these settings might be for an aftermarket exhaust is outside my experience, but at least this helps those who may wish to DIY, or understand the methodology behind the adjustments made by a professional tuner.

 

I'm sure curious to know what magic Greg's tuner performed to achieve such good results, but it's fair to consider that a trade secret or trick of the trade.

[v11cafe]

We could create an alternate complex instruction set.

 

 

Do people get the instructions when they buy the Ti kit?

Perhaps someone who knows how to tune the Ti Mufflers could write some instructions.

 

Let's start...Ti kit instructions attached...

Some remarks....

1/Set Tps right throttle body2.9+/-0.1(465mv +/-5mv)...OK that's easy ...but next comes

"tune left cylinder vacuum equal to right one, with the tuning screw (not the bypass one), with the connection stick disconnected"....Have not seen that in other Guzzi v11 manuals /updates etc

2/Am I right to suppose that after this balance the resulting Tps value with the stick connected would not be 2.9.

but something more???

3/According to forums tps instructions one adjusts the tps value from left throttle body screw, ( more convenient),

but if one sets it in 2.9,(that's what I did...) is way lower than the actual tps value reached when you set at 2.9 right body,

synchronize bodies disconnected, ( so left body has also some value ...it's not zero), and then connect the stick.

4/Last part of instructions, about adjusting the CO level is not valid for bikes with lambda sensor, even if you have an Axone.

Lambda is a spy in the crossover ....so, CO stays always between 0.75-1.2 whatever you do.

 

Any ideas/remarks...welcome

[raz]

Let's start...Ti kit instructions attached...

Some remarks....

1/Set Tps right throttle body2.9+/-0.1(465mv +/-5mv)...OK that's easy ...but next comes

"tune left cylinder vacuum equal to right one, with the tuning screw (not the bypass one), with the connection stick disconnected"....Have not seen that in other Guzzi v11 manuals /updates etc

2/Am I right to suppose that after this balance the resulting Tps value with the stick connected would not be 2.9.

but something more???

3/According to forums tps instructions one adjusts the tps value from left throttle body screw, ( more convenient),

but if one sets it in 2.9,(that's what I did...) is way lower than the actual tps value reached when you set at 2.9 right body,

synchronize bodies disconnected, ( so left body has also some value ...it's not zero), and then connect the stick.

4/Last part of instructions, about adjusting the CO level is not valid for bikes with lambda sensor, even if you have an Axone.

My impression is that this instruction is completely fokked up, maybe the intended procedure is correct but the written instructions came out as garbage. This is how I read it:

1. First you set the TPS to show a number (regardless of what degree throttle happen to be there!). Rod disconnected but no mentioning of RH idle screw or fast idle.
   
2. Then you set the left throttle to the same degrees (whatever that was) [actually you set it to produce the same vacuum] with the connecting rod disconnected, using the idle screw.
   
3. Only then you close the by-pass screws. So in point 2 they may have been way out of sane?
   
4. Now you connect the rod and adjust synch at 2000/3000 rpm using rod adjuster.
   
5. Adjust idle using by-pass screws
   

Following this instruction to the letter can only produce completely random results, no?

[v11cafe]

My impression is that this instruction is completely fokked up, maybe the intended procedure is correct but the written instructions came out as garbage. This is how I read it:

1. First you set the TPS to show a number (regardless of what degree throttle happen to be there!). Rod disconnected but no
   mentioning of RH idle screw or fast idle.
   
2. Then you set the left throttle to the same degrees (whatever that was) [actually you set it to produce the same vacuum] with the connecting rod disconnected, using the idle screw.
   
3. Only then you close the by-pass screws. So in point 2 they may have been way out of sane?
   
4. Now you connect the rod and adjust synch at 2000/3000 rpm using rod adjuster.
   
5. Adjust idle using by-pass screws
   

Following this instruction to the letter can only produce completely random results, no?

 

I agree, so I try to imagine what is missing between the ...lines, and the right order.

 

1/Let's suppose that the line "Close completely bypass screws" in second paragraph is the first one,

so I close bypasses and then set the Tps Value 2.9 with the right body screw(not convenient , but can be done...),

and everything disconnected (fast idle, rod) and left hand body screw retracted , not touching the left butterfly

2/Then equalize left cylinder with right (vacuum produced), with left body screw.Problem here is if the bypass

screws are completely closed you have a very rough and low idle, and it's not easy to synchronize cylinders.

You have to be fast, ...and the bike is suffering...and I am not that fast!!!!

3/ "tune by bypass screws idle condition at 1100+/-50rpm" should come before the line "Disconnect vacuumeter",

otherwise how can you do it???

 

Does it make more sense?

 

Also, there is a problem in first paragraph, line " tune (on right throttle body) the throttle potentiometer ...(What is that ,the butterfly screw or the whole tps????) till you reach 2.9",

.....but in second paragraph " tune left cylinder vacuum with ........tuning screw",...here it is clear...

is tuning screw and throttle potentiometer same thing in other words???

[v11cafe]

I see

that the flooooo...ders of this forum, never respond unless they have something to sell,

...or to show ---oooofffff

 

Thank you

[dlaing]

I see

that the flooooo...ders of this forum, never respond unless they have something to sell,

...or to show ---oooofffff

 

Thank you

I want to show ---oooofffff, but those instructions have my head spinning.

Almost every step of those instructions must have errors in it!!!!

They say,

"Tune (on right throttle body) the throttle potentiometer till you reach" their recommended voltage.

Doing so will completely randomize results.

Unless of course they mean to use 550mV or 465mV instead of 150mV!!!!

Is this possible? Maybe?!?

But all the other steps have holes in the theory!!!

Obviously the instructions are a cruel joke.

Looking at the Ti Map they seem to be expecting a lower idle TPS voltage rather than a higher Voltage, so 465mV at idle makes a lot more sense than as the base disconnected voltage reading.

I would still go with the 150mV base disconnected TPS reading, and then simply follow our instructions.

But even this seems like it will result in a low, lean idle with bypass screws open too much in an effort to keep idle high enough.

Or maybe there is more fuel added by the map and it is fine.

But you tried our instructions at both 465mV and 521mV and it neither worked well, right?

If that is the case and you were error free, I say try a base TPS other than 150mV.

The idle TPS of 465mV could very well work, but not likely with a base TPS of 150mV.

Maybe it should be set to 100mV or even 0mV!!!!

But setting base to 0mV and idle to 465mV would probably result in a very high idle.

 

The other possibility is that this was written by hacks who assume that you are taking a perfectly tuned stock bike and converting to the Ti kit.

If that is the case the idle was already set correctly and the Stock TPS should be set to 525mV. So, they are suggesting lowering it at the potentiometer to 465mV which is in effect like lowering the base TPS to 90mV.

Again, I think a base TPS setting of 100mV may be the ticket.

They probably fired the engineer who used 100mV instead of 150mV and then nobody knew how to write instructions, so they came up with the crappy instructions.

If it gets worse at 100mV, try 200mV. or better yet, try baby steps.

Try 130mV if better than 150mV try 110mV.

If 130mV is worse than 150mV try 170mV.

ETC. etc. and so forth till you get it right, and then let us know!!!!

Of course I could load the Ti map with my Tuneboy and give it a try, too.