Throttle Position Sensor

[v11cafe]

I think you try to invent the wheel once more.

The topic is going twilight zone with all these mumbo jumbo....I believe the Guzzi is not that hard,

(at least not harder than other bikes) to properly adjust.

Read the FFFFFFFFFF...... manual, if you don"t have it, buy it, or borrow it, or service your bike to a dealer,

so you don" t have to worry about TPS setting.

Nowhere says the steps described for tuning TPS by Ryland3210, or in that order.

There is an update manual for V11 2003+ Guzzi with different TPS settings than 2000-2002,

(3.4 degrees physical opening is not right) although the method is quite the same.

INFO when Guzzi manuals say right side that is with rider on the bike, not looking at the bike face on,

so Ryland3210 my Cafe sport has the TPS on the right side body, hope yours too, otherwise you have

a Cali and you don"t know it.

 

I hope the forum administrators will not permit to continue this topic, because half truths ...plus some magic

...never tuned a Guzzi properly.

It"s OK for fun to say anything you wish, but here some "do it yourself" people try to learn or confirm

some things about their bikes or problems they have, and I expect more seriousness when someone

posts a ( claimed) tuning guide.......

[Admin Jaap]

V11Cafe,

 

There is no reason to close this thread. I think 99% of the forum members don't understand what it's about. (I'm one of them... )

[dlaing]

I think you try to invent the wheel once more.

The topic is going twilight zone with all these mumbo jumbo....I believe the Guzzi is not that hard,

(at least not harder than other bikes) to properly adjust.

Read the FFFFFFFFFF...... manual, if you don"t have it, buy it, or borrow it, or service your bike to a dealer,

so you don" t have to worry about TPS setting.

Nowhere says the steps described for tuning TPS by Ryland3210, or in that order.

There is an update manual for V11 2003+ Guzzi with different TPS settings than 2000-2002,

(3.4 degrees physical opening is not right) although the method is quite the same.

INFO when Guzzi manuals say right side that is with rider on the bike, not looking at the bike face on,

so Ryland3210 my Cafe sport has the TPS on the right side body, hope yours too, otherwise you have

a Cali and you don"t know it.

 

I hope the forum administrators will not permit to continue this topic, because half truths ...plus some magic

...never tuned a Guzzi properly.

It"s OK for fun to say anything you wish, but here some "do it yourself" people try to learn or confirm

some things about their bikes or problems they have, and I expect more seriousness when someone

posts a ( claimed) tuning guide.......

The half truths and magic are in the manuals.

The how-to articles written by forum members have been better, but there are inconsistencies amongst them.

This discussion has tried to clear up the inconsistencies and produce easy to follow instructions.

The latest manual update does things very differently and posts different numbers.

We should discuss it

[pete roper]

The half truths and magic are in the manuals.

The how-to articles written by forum members have been better, but there are inconsistencies amongst them.

This discussion has tried to clear up the inconsistencies and produce easy to follow instructions.

The latest manual update does things very differently and posts different numbers.

We should discuss it

 

 

Look, with respect, everything about ANY production vehicle is a compromise. We ride around on great bags of compromises and the mapping and, dare I say it, even the TPS settings are at best a guide.

 

While few of us have a dyno or the wherewithall to build and install different maps and run battery after battery of tests it is quite within the skills of ordinary mortals to set up the TPS to their requirements, ballance the TB's and check that all the sensors etc. are working.

 

I think one of the issues is that Mr. V11cafe is one of those people who believes that anything the factory suggests HAS to be best and changing anything will lead to disaster. I think it was he who was skeptical and doubtful about the oil pick-up exposure problem on Broad Sump bikes as a case in point? Look, that's his belief and it's fine. I just happen to think its a bit short sighted and blinkered.

 

Nobody is suggesting that straying too far from the recommendations in the manual is a 'Good Thing' or a panacea for all ills but to state that one should only take ones bike to a dealer OR set it up to factory specs is very limiting and, for a lot of people, removes a lot of the fun of owning a bike like a V11 that is so eminently 'Tinkerable' and has such enormous room for improvement!

 

Pete

[Ryland3210]

I think you try to invent the wheel once more.

The topic is going twilight zone with all these mumbo jumbo....I believe the Guzzi is not that hard,

(at least not harder than other bikes) to properly adjust.

Read the FFFFFFFFFF...... manual, if you don"t have it, buy it, or borrow it, or service your bike to a dealer,

so you don" t have to worry about TPS setting.

Nowhere says the steps described for tuning TPS by Ryland3210, or in that order.

There is an update manual for V11 2003+ Guzzi with different TPS settings than 2000-2002,

(3.4 degrees physical opening is not right) although the method is quite the same.

INFO when Guzzi manuals say right side that is with rider on the bike, not looking at the bike face on,

so Ryland3210 my Cafe sport has the TPS on the right side body, hope yours too, otherwise you have

a Cali and you don"t know it.

 

I hope the forum administrators will not permit to continue this topic, because half truths ...plus some magic

...never tuned a Guzzi properly.

It"s OK for fun to say anything you wish, but here some "do it yourself" people try to learn or confirm

some things about their bikes or problems they have, and I expect more seriousness when someone

posts a ( claimed) tuning guide.......

 

The tuning method was developed because I was unable to find a scientific basis for any of the various methods I found. Manuals are often written not by the designers and engineers, but delegated to second string techs, or worse, marketing personnel, while the engineers move on to the next fun project. At times, one wonders whether the writer actually ever tried following his own instructions. I am not criticising Moto Guzzi's service manual, because I have not read it. This is a general comment.

 

The method is based on engineering physics, not opinion. An important goal was to eliminate trial and error where possible. The setpoints were determined by researching the available data on sensors and measurements made by credible sources on this forum.

 

The method was reviewed and improved by several contributors, and tried successfully before finalizing it.

 

If you prefer to follow whatever the manual says, or have a dealer do it for you, that is your choice. Not everyone has a service manual. If others wish to use this method, they likewise are free to do so. Moto Guzzi also is free to adopt the method as well.

 

It seems to me there is no harm to Moto Guzzi whenever a better way of servicing or enjoying their products comes along.

 

After you have read through the thread in which this method was developed and find any magic or half truths, please point them out so they can be corrected.

[dlaing]

There is an update manual for V11 2003+ Guzzi with different TPS settings than 2000-2002,

(3.4 degrees physical opening is not right) although the method is quite the same.

No, the method is quite different:

from the updated manual...with comments in Italian Racing Green.

Disengage rod “I” on throttle body right side.

· Using the special throttle adjusting grub screw “L”, they mean right side set screw that sets how far open the throttle is

adjust throttle position sensor at 3.8° (+/- 0.1°), 3.1-4.1° or 3.2-3.6° depending on where you look in older manuals

value to be read on AXONE 2000 tester;

Turn adjusting grub screw “M” using a 2.5 mm

Allen wrench. That is an error, it should be “L” not “M”

 

Connect rod “I” on throttle body right side;

· Fully close the by-pass screws “M” on both sides

 

Bring grub screw “N” of the LH throttle body fully

home, make sure not to change throttle opening angle

· Start the engine and reach 50° C (read value on AXONE

2000), after having selected the engine temperature

parameter.

· Check, not ad idling speed – i.e. at about 2,000 to

3,000 RPM – that the two cylinder air flows are balanced.

If not, turn throttle adjusting nut “O” and proceed

to correct balancing;

 

Gradually open both by-pass screws so as to reach

an idling speed of 1,100 ± 50 RPM

Older manual suggest 1050 ± 50 RPM The difference in RPM will roughly correspond to the difference between throttle set to 3.8° vs. 3.6° (so both numbers can be considered "right" IMHO, but FWIW I prefer the higher idle, based largely on Pete Roper's recommendation for a fast idle. Also FWIW, 3.8 corresponds to about 550mV

(read value on

AXONE2000), after having selected the rpm parameter,

by keeping the vacuum balance;

Engine temperature shall be between 70 and

80°C

· Disconnect the vacuometer and check idling speed;

· Switch off and disconnect AXONE2000;

No special procedure is needed to switch off AXONE2000:

simply press “ON/OFF” “11” from any menu.

AXONE2000 may jam during operation.

If this is the case, turn the key to “OFF”,

switch off AXONE2000 by pressing “ON/OFF”

“E”, disconnect upper connector and wait for a

few seconds before connecting the tester to

control unit again.

If once this procedure is over the idling speed is not

within the specified limits, use a tester to check the

throttle position sensor as follows:

This methodology seems backwards to me. IMHO one should start with the following procedure, not end with it. Although for minor tune-ups this method is fine, but if I bothered to disconnect the linkage, I would bother to verify the 150mV reading, but notice they mention nothing about disconnecting the throttle linkage at this point. They assume you will know that fully closed with angle zero would imply disconnected linkage and backed out set screw and backed out choke.

· fully close the throttle duct (throttle angle 0°);

· turn the ignition key to ON ;

· install the tester probes inside the throttle position

sensor connector across terminals “Q” and “R” and

check that the voltage reading is 150mV +/- 15mV.

· If the throttle position sensor reading does not fall inside

the above values, loosen fastening screw “P”

and proceed to correct re-positioning.

 

 

I also found the following interesting

START-UP STAGE

The moment in which the starter switch is activated, the

ECU powers the fuel pump for several seconds and

acquires the throttle angle as well as the the engine temperature.

If it is acquiring the throttle angle and you are giving it throttle or choke, is it going to throw off the baseline idle?

[v11cafe]

No, the method is quite different:

 

I don"t know any other method.I didn"t have previous v11 models.

These are the right steps for variants V11 sport MY 2003 V11 le mans MY 2003

V11 Rosso Corsa V11 cafe sport V11 Ballabio.

My bike works great, that"s why I don" t want to experiment with alternate methods.

Maybe I am a bit short sighted and blinkered, as Roper put it, but on the other hand I don"t

doubt the manual, because it works fine for my bike.

 

 

If it is acquiring the throttle angle and you are giving it throttle or choke, is it going to throw off the baseline idle?

I believe the sensors take the data, when you turn the ignition key, not when you press the starter button,

but I am not sure.

[dlaing]

I believe the sensors take the data, when you turn the ignition key, not when you press the starter button,

but I am not sure.

I agree.

I don't think there is a signal sent to the ECU indicating starting is occurring.

The ECU could look for a voltage drop or a very slow RPM to recognize that it is starting, but I doubt it.

[dlaing]

I don"t know any other method.I didn"t have previous v11 models.

These are the right steps for variants V11 sport MY 2003 V11 le mans MY 2003

V11 Rosso Corsa V11 cafe sport V11 Ballabio.

My bike works great, that"s why I don" t want to experiment with alternate methods.

Maybe I am a bit short sighted and blinkered, as Roper put it, but on the other hand I don"t

doubt the manual, because it works fine for my bike.

If you can follow the manual's instructions and get good results, nobody is going to stop you.

The instructions do appear to be better in the updated manual, available here:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/moto_guzzi_misc.htm

[Ryland3210]

No, the method is quite different:

from the updated manual...with comments in Italian Racing Green.

I also found the following interesting

 

If it is acquiring the throttle angle and you are giving it throttle or choke, is it going to throw off the baseline idle?

 

I agree with all of dlaing's comments, and here are some of my own:

 

1. In general, use of terminology unique to one English dialect or another risks misunderstanding. Descriptive terminology is clearer. For example, "grub" screw is less clear than "idle adjusting screw". The term "fully home" can be interpreted as either all the way in or all the way out. In my experience in the U.S., it means all the way in until the screw stops. If that is what is intended by "Bring grub screw "N" of the LH throttle body fully home, make sure not to change throttle opening angle", then the instructions are impossible to follow. If it intends to mean all the way out, does that mean until the screw falls out? Assuming that what they really mean is until it just begins to affect the throttle position, it leaves the throttle connecting rod in a position where there is no tension or compression acting on it. That is fine when the throttles are at idle. However, it does not keep the throttle rod consistently in tension, which has the advantage of eliminating backlash in the mechanism and keeping the two throttles more accurately synchronised. Another advantage is that subsequent adjustment in idle RPM can be simply made by adjusting the LH idle screw without disturbing throttle synchronisation.

2. A method which does not rely on special purpose instrumentation, such as the AXONE 2000, is friendlier to the do-it-yourselfer.

3. As dlaing says, it is cumbersome to go through the entire procedure and then check the TPS voltage at closed throttles if it fails.

4. Instructions written in a particular language should be written by an author with the same first language.

5. Instructions should be proof read by someone other than the author.

6. Instructions should be tried by someone other than either of the people in 4 and 5, with the author observing and taking notes, absolutely hands off. If the author has to lay on hands, it means the instructions are not clear. If he has to explain anything, it means the instructions are not clear. The author will not be at the do-it-yourselfer's side.

 

At the end of the day (to use a favorite English idiomatic expression), the procedure in the manual can certainly work, but is likely to be misunderstood, has an error in it, has bad grammar, will take longer, depends on special instrumentation, will not result in as good carb synchronization or as simple a subsequent idle speed adjustment.

 

I rest my case, and trust that we have made a positive contribution to clarity and accuracy.

[Ryland3210]

I agree.

I don't think there is a signal sent to the ECU indicating starting is occurring.

The ECU could look for a voltage drop or a very slow RPM to recognize that it is starting, but I doubt it.

 

 

START-UP STAGE

The moment in which the starter switch is activated, the

ECU powers the fuel pump for several seconds and

acquires the throttle angle as well as the the engine temperature.

 

Another interpretation:

It is exactly as it says, but does not say it clearly. It's not that it only acquires the throttle angle only at the moment the ignition switch it turned on, it just that it monitors the throttle angle and engine temperature as the engine is being started so that it knows how much fuel to deliver.

I suspect the ECU must assume that the TPS has been calibrated properly (it has no way of knowing where the actual butterfly plates are, so that assumption must be true). Therefore, it has no reason to monitor the TPS to establish a baseline before or during starting.

Therefore, it not only acquires the throttle angle at the moment in which the starter switch is activated, but continues to do so while the engine is being started and thereafter.

I think this is a case of English not being the first language of the author.

 

Hard evidence for this interpretation is that my practice is to set the "choke" before turning on the ignition, and if the ECU used that position as a baseline TPS reading, then all subsequent F/A ratios would be far off.

[dlaing]

Hard evidence for this interpretation is that my practice is to set the "choke" before turning on the ignition, and if the ECU used that position as a baseline TPS reading, then all subsequent F/A ratios would be far off.

That is what I feared.

But yah, it is not very likely that they did that.

I think I'll just ignore that unless we get more indications that it is critical.

The only hints that is critical are the degrees not matching the volts and on MPH's chart it says,

"Anything below 4 degrees open ECU considers bike to be at idle (as seen by 'flag' on diagnostic program)"

But that is probably just a useless 'feature' of the diagnostic software and not the ECU, and not an invitation to set idle to 4 degrees.

[dlaing]

Getting back to our goal of out performing a stock Guzzi Workshop manual. I yanked the quotes to make replying easier (good idea Docc!)My modifications in Guzzi racing green, Ryland in BLACK

quote name='Ryland3210' date='Sep 3 2007, 06:34 PM' post='128319'

I found the TPS calibration off by 45 mv. Starting from Jeff from Ohio's procedure, I developed a procedure summary. My goal was to eliminate iterative interdependent adjustments and the effects of any backlash in the connecting rod.

 

My Draft Procedure Summary: First make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows: disconnect the connecting rod, back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5 mm hex key (allen wrench) and choke cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike). Turn on the ignition key, but do not start bike. Measure TPS voltage difference between two outer wires of TPS. If needed, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and rotate if needed. 150 mV + - 5 mv can be obtained with a little effort.

 

Next, close the bypasses both air bypass screws, reconnect the connecting rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put keep the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash, and balance the throttles throttle bodies at idle using the connecting rod adjustment. Screw in the left throttle idle screw if the idle is too low to maintain. Do not use the choke for this purpose, because that would put the connecting rod in compression, introducing backlash, causing the throttle bodies to go out of balance.

 

Now adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .518 volts. + - .005 0.525 Volts (corresponding to 3.4 3.6 degrees physical opening as read by the diagnostic software) can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table.)

 

Next open the bypasses air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. Bypasses should be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the left idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage in steps of 15 mv and open the bypasses to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more. Be sure engine has fully warmed up, but not overheating.

 

Check balance at midrange 2000 - 3000 RPM as follows:

 

A When checking balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM, make any fine correction needed using the connecting rod adjustment adjuster, then:

B. Check balance at idle RPM. If OK, done, if not, rebalance at idle using the air bypass screws, and go back to step A.

 

Options: Use a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS to adjust the fuel trim. These tools can also indicate the engine temperature, which should be between 70°C and 80°C when setting idle and at least 50°C when balancing throttle bodiesAdjust the idle mixture trim potentiometer under the label of the computer for best idle quality, or Use a gas analyzer if available. However, according to Guzzijack, "not an option on the V11Sport as it uses the 15M ECU - manual adjustment of the idle mixture potentiometer is only applicable to bikes with the P7/P8 or 16M ECUs - 15M idle mixture adjust is only possible via factory or aftermarket software."

 

Once this procedure is completely successfully, in the future, minor changes in idle speed can be made simply by adjusting the left throttle idle screw. Since the throttle plates have been balanced, backlash between them has been eliminated, and bypasses have been properly adjusted to maintain balance at idle, these should be stable for many miles.

 

Comments, anyone?

/quote

Be careful of what you wish for

[Ryland3210]

Getting back to our goal of out performing a stock Guzzi Workshop manual. I yanked the quotes to make replying easier (good idea Docc!)My modifications in Guzzi racing green, Ryland in BLACK

quote name='Ryland3210' date='Sep 3 2007, 06:34 PM' post='128319'

I found the TPS calibration off by 45 mv. Starting from Jeff from Ohio's procedure, I developed a procedure summary. My goal was to eliminate iterative interdependent adjustments and the effects of any backlash in the connecting rod.

 

My Draft Procedure Summary: First make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows: disconnect the connecting rod, back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5 mm hex key (allen wrench) and choke cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike). Turn on the ignition key, but do not start bike. Measure TPS voltage difference between two outer wires of TPS. If needed, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and rotate if needed. 150 mV + - 5 mv can be obtained with a little effort.

 

Next, close the bypasses both air bypass screws, reconnect the connecting rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put keep the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash, and balance the throttles throttle bodies at idle using the connecting rod adjustment. Screw in the left throttle idle screw if the idle is too low to maintain. Do not use the choke for this purpose, because that would put the connecting rod in compression, introducing backlash, causing the throttle bodies to go out of balance.

 

Now adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .518 volts. + - .005 0.525 Volts (corresponding to 3.4 3.6 degrees physical opening as read by the diagnostic software) can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table.)

 

Next open the bypasses air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. Bypasses should be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the left idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage in steps of 15 mv and open the bypasses to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more. Be sure engine has fully warmed up, but not overheating.

 

Check balance at midrange 2000 - 3000 RPM as follows:

 

A When checking balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM, make any fine correction needed using the connecting rod adjustment adjuster, then:

B. Check balance at idle RPM. If OK, done, if not, rebalance at idle using the air bypass screws, and go back to step A.

 

Options: Use a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS to adjust the fuel trim. These tools can also indicate the engine temperature, which should be between 70°C and 80°C when setting idle and at least 50°C when balancing throttle bodiesAdjust the idle mixture trim potentiometer under the label of the computer for best idle quality, or Use a gas analyzer if available. However, according to Guzzijack, "not an option on the V11Sport as it uses the 15M ECU - manual adjustment of the idle mixture potentiometer is only applicable to bikes with the P7/P8 or 16M ECUs - 15M idle mixture adjust is only possible via factory or aftermarket software."

 

Once this procedure is completely successfully, in the future, minor changes in idle speed can be made simply by adjusting the left throttle idle screw. Since the throttle plates have been balanced, backlash between them has been eliminated, and bypasses have been properly adjusted to maintain balance at idle, these should be stable for many miles.

 

Comments, anyone?

/quote

Be careful of what you wish for

 

A quick note, dlaing: The version you are working from is the draft, not the final version. The final is the one on September 9th. Check to see if there are any differences. If so, make your suggestions on the final version. :!:

[Ryland3210]

I did a quick review of the two versions and it looks like they are similar.

 

Dave,

 

Lots of good clarifications, removing ambiguities on terminology.

 

My comments:

1. The 518 mv, which is based on good data and calculations, should stand. (yeah, 7 mv doesn't mean much, but the target should be based on our best information). The + - 5mv tolerance should stay so people know when it's good enough.

2. I don't see that it is important for the engine to be warmed up to balance the air bypasses at idle. Balance will achieved without that constraint, and idle speed can be adjusted conveniently subsequently without disturbing balance.

3. I didn't specify cruise RPM, because different people cruise at different speeds. However, in reaility, the engine will be under load when cruising, so throttles will be open more anyway, so I have no problem with the range you suggest.

4. Under options, I see no advantage to balancing or setting idle speed ONLY at specified temperatures for the same reasons given in 2. above. I didn't come up with the potentiometer adjustment option, available on some bikes, but it seemed to me that it made sense. Why delete it?