Throttle Position Sensor

[Guest ratchethack]

Nice collaboration work, guys.

 

I offer no critique of the content at this time but reserve the potential to do so next time I do the tune-up (soon).

 

Coupla little things as long as you're at it to go along with the effort:

 

Please DO NOT refer to the throttle advance as a choke. It's just wrong, there is no choke on a FI motor, and those (such as Y'ers Truly) with decades of tuning carbs just won't like it.

 

Please use 'linkage rod' in place of 'connecting rod'. Same kinda thing, but even more incorrect.

 

One more thing. I've found the the mV reading at the TPS varies directly with the voltage reading at the battery. That is, the setting at the TPS is generally given as a range, because the voltage reading at the battery is generally found to be correct within an acceptable range, and both vary in normal usage. When the voltage reads high at the battery, it will also read high at the TPS, and vice versa. For this reason, if you try to nail the TPS setting spot-on every time it will eventually send you 'round the bend. . .

[Ryland3210]

Nice collaboration work, guys.

 

I offer no critique of the content at this time but reserve the potential to do so next time I do the tune-up (soon).

 

Coupla little things as long as you're at it to go along with the effort:

 

Please DO NOT refer to the throttle advance as a choke. It's just wrong, there is no choke on a FI motor, and those (such as Y'ers Truly) with decades of tuning carbs just won't like it.

 

Please use 'linkage rod' in place of 'connecting rod'. Same kinda thing, but even more incorrect.

 

One more thing. I've found the the mV redaing at the TPS varies directly with the voltage reading at the battery. That is, the setting at the TPS is generally given as a range, because the voltage reading at the battery is generally found to be correct within an acceptable range. When the voltage reads high at the battery, it will also read high at the TPS, and vice versa. For this reason, if you try to nail the TPS setting spot-on every time you will eventually go 'round the bend. . .

 

Ratchethack, of course you're technically correct on "throttle advance". Perhaps "fast idle" would arguably be even more technically correct. Unfortunately my operator's manual isn't. It's called a "choke". For the sake of making it clearly understood by the average rider, as well as the guru's who will have no trouble figuring out what is meant, it should the same terminology should be used, IMHO.

 

On my bike, there was no perceptable variation in the regulated 5 volt supplied to the TPS as battery voltage varied. That's one of the first things I checked. Truly precise and cheap 5 volt regulators have been around since the '80's. If you are seeing a significant variation with battery voltage, I would look for weaknesses in the ground connections between ECU, Battery, Frame, and TPS cable.

 

The + - 5mv tolerance (range, if you will) was given because of difficulties in doing any better with the sensitivity of the TPS adjustment.

[dlaing]

A quick note, dlaing: The version you are working from is the draft, not the final version. The final is the one on September 9th. Check to see if there are any differences. If so, make your suggestions on the final version. :!:

[dlaing]

I did a quick review of the two versions and it looks like they are similar.

 

Dave,

 

Lots of good clarifications, removing ambiguities on terminology.

 

My comments:

1. The 518 mv, which is based on good data and calculations, should stand. (yeah, 7 mv doesn't mean much, but the target should be based on our best information). The + - 5mv tolerance should stay so people know when it's good enough.

2. I don't see that it is important for the engine to be warmed up to balance the air bypasses at idle. Balance will achieved without that constraint, and idle speed can be adjusted conveniently subsequently without disturbing balance.

3. I didn't specify cruise RPM, because different people cruise at different speeds. However, in reaility, the engine will be under load when cruising, so throttles will be open more anyway, so I have no problem with the range you suggest.

4. Under options, I see no advantage to balancing or setting idle speed ONLY at specified temperatures for the same reasons given in 2. above. I didn't come up with the potentiometer adjustment option, available on some bikes, but it seemed to me that it made sense. Why delete it?

1. OK...for now. I need to double check your work on that.

2. I disagree, but maybe it is not a big deal.

3. Previously I checked at all the RPMs up to 4500, but I have found that if I just set it at 2500RPM it works just as well. This surprised me. Someone on the forum recommended lower rpms and it worked great. It reduces the chance of overheating, balances it very well, and does not drive the neighbors to hate me MORE.

4. There is no potentiometer, so the only need to mention it is to say it does not exist.

But there is a trim accessible via software. Perhaps it could be worded something like:

" The bikes with the 15M computer have no potentiometer for adjusting mixture, but through the use of a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS the fuel trim can be adjusted to get the proper CO emission level. "

[Ryland3210]

1. OK...for now. I need to double check your work on that.

2. I disagree, but maybe it is not a big deal.

3. Previously I checked at all the RPMs up to 4500, but I have found that if I just set it at 2500RPM it works just as well. This surprised me. Someone on the forum recommended lower rpms and it worked great. It reduces the chance of overheating, balances it very well, and does not drive the neighbors to hate me MORE.

4. There is no potentiometer, so the only need to mention it is to say it does not exist.

But there is a trim accessible via software. Perhaps it could be worded something like:

" The bikes with the 15M computer have no potentiometer for adjusting mixture, but through the use of a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS the fuel trim can be adjusted to get the proper CO emission level. "

 

This version of wording on the CO mixture tuning is good, but it begs the question, "which computer does have the potentiometer", so I think that the notes on that should be included, for those who have the feature.

[dlaing]

Nice collaboration work, guys.

 

I offer no critique of the content at this time but reserve the potential to do so next time I do the tune-up (soon).

 

Coupla little things as long as you're at it to go along with the effort:

 

Please DO NOT refer to the throttle advance as a choke. It's just wrong, there is no choke on a FI motor, and those (such as Y'ers Truly) with decades of tuning carbs just won't like it.

 

Please use 'linkage rod' in place of 'connecting rod'. Same kinda thing, but even more incorrect.

 

One more thing. I've found the the mV reading at the TPS varies directly with the voltage reading at the battery. That is, the setting at the TPS is generally given as a range, because the voltage reading at the battery is generally found to be correct within an acceptable range, and both vary in normal usage. When the voltage reads high at the battery, it will also read high at the TPS, and vice versa. For this reason, if you try to nail the TPS setting spot-on every time it will eventually send you 'round the bend. . .

No critique, huh? <_>

But your critique is greatly appreciated. I look forward to more.

The term "choke" bugs me too. Good catch. I think it would be a good idea to use both choke and fast idle, but put "choke" in quotes and (fast idle) in parenthesis.

Connecting Rod is bad. linkage rod may not be much better. How about Synchronization Rod?

I found that mV reading of the TPS did not vary going from battery only to battery and external charger. But I did find variation when engine was running.

[dlaing]

This version of wording on the CO mixture tuning is good, but it begs the question, "which computer does have the potentiometer", so I think that the notes on that should be included, for those who have the feature.

I used to use the term V11 six speed to refer to the bikes with the 15M, but then came the breva, griso and norge, so then it became V11 six speed spine frame.

Do people know which bikes those are?

I guess we should list which bikes have the 15M and follow this exact tuning process.

1999-2006

V11 Sport, Le Mans, Rosso Mandello, Scura, Tenni, Cafe Sport, Rosso Corsa, Nero Corsa, Naked Ballabio, and Coppa Italia.

[Ryland3210]

No critique, huh? <_>

But your critique is greatly appreciated. I look forward to more.

The term "choke" bugs me too. Good catch. I think it would be a good idea to use both choke and fast idle, but put "choke" in quotes and (fast idle) in parenthesis.

Connecting Rod is bad. linkage rod may not be much better. How about Synchronization Rod?

I found that mV reading of the TPS did not vary going from battery only to battery and external charger. But I did find variation when engine was running.

 

OH NOOOO! Let's not have another verbal swordfight on this thread. It can get boring. That is better done on the Banter section.

 

Let's keep it simple, and use "choke" because that's a familiar term and is used in the MG manual. The point is, people will know where they can find it. For the purpose of this thread, that's more important than whether it is absolutely correct technically. Synchronisation Rod is a better term-good change.

 

We discussed the variation of TPS readings when the engine is running previously. That's why its easier, and I believe more accurate, for the user to calibrate the TPS and set the idle throttle opening with the engine off.

[dlaing]

snip

Let's keep it simple, and use "choke" because that's a familiar term and is used in the MG manual. The point is, people will know where they can find it. For the purpose of this thread, that's more important than whether it is absolutely correct technically. Synchronisation Rod is a better term-good change.

 

We discussed the variation of TPS readings when the engine is running previously. That's why its easier, and I believe more accurate, for the user to calibrate the TPS and set the idle throttle opening with the engine off.

Could we keep "choke" in quotes?

Yes running the engine on just the left cylinder is difficult and probably not good for the engine.

[dlaing]

1. The 518 mv, which is based on good data and calculations, should stand. (yeah, 7 mv doesn't mean much, but the target should be based on our best information). The + - 5mv tolerance should stay so people know when it's good enough.

I plotted the MPH Cycle numbers on to a graph and the graph was two clean lines just like Jeff's graph.

If the number was 518 and not 524 mV, then the curve would be skewed.

How did you come up with 518 mV?

I suppose I could hook up the computer and find the highest and lowest mV readings that line up with 3.6°.

Of course we have Mr. Bean saying to go with a much lower mV and V11Cafe saying to go with the updated manual's 3.8°, and it is all much about nothing because as long as you got the 150mV set right the idle setting variations won't matter much.

I am just nitpicking.

So how about a nice round 520mV?

[Ryland3210]

I plotted the MPH Cycle numbers on to a graph and the graph was two clean lines just like Jeff's graph.

If the number was 518 and not 524 mV, then the curve would be skewed.

How did you come up with 518 mV?

I suppose I could hook up the computer and find the highest and lowest mV readings that line up with 3.6°.

Of course we have Mr. Bean saying to go with a much lower mV and V11Cafe saying to go with the updated manual's 3.8°, and it is all much about nothing because as long as you got the 150mV set right the idle setting variations won't matter much.

I am just nitpicking.

So how about a nice round 520mV?

 

See post #40 for the derivation of the 518mv.

 

"choke" works fine.

If we are asking the tuner to hold to + - 5 mv, then I think it's best to stick to the 518 mv.

I agree that the important thing is to get the 150mv. To review, the only effect of having a higher or lower TPS voltage at idle is its interaction with the air bypasses. For example, if the throttle is adjusted towards closed, i.e. lower TPS voltage, then the air bypasses have to be opened more to achieve the idle RPM. At low throttle settings, that means there will be less fuel delivered and a slightly leaner mixture. However, at increased throttle openings, the air bypasses become less significant, so mixture becomes independent of the idle settings.

 

Nothing wrong with nitpicking when the intentions are good.

[dlaing]

See post #40 for the derivation of the 518mv.

 

"choke" works fine.

If we are asking the tuner to hold to + - 5 mv, then I think it's best to stick to the 518 mv.

I agree that the important thing is to get the 150mv. To review, the only effect of having a higher or lower TPS voltage at idle is its interaction with the air bypasses. For example, if the throttle is adjusted towards closed, i.e. lower TPS voltage, then the air bypasses have to be opened more to achieve the idle RPM. At low throttle settings, that means there will be less fuel delivered and a slightly leaner mixture. However, at increased throttle openings, the air bypasses become less significant, so mixture becomes independent of the idle settings.

 

Nothing wrong with nitpicking when the intentions are good.

agreeing on a definition of 'good' can be a problem

What are your exact settings?

I got 148mV and 525mV(I think that was it?) (3.6°) and one air screw is out half a turn and the three quarters of a turn. Idle is about 1150-1200. Valves are set to .15/.20mm.(this can effect idle speed, too.)

So, maybe 518mV would give idle right where we defined it

Just asking what your settings are, because if we get a sample of people's exact settings it could give us a better indication of what to recommend.

[Skeeve]

Just remember to post a final"final" version of the procedure here, so I can d/l it when all the honing of verbiage, arguing of millivolts [i'm in for 520+-5mv], etc. is done!

 

BTW, when it comes to balancing [throttle bodies or carbs], it's done at idle, 'cause the off-idle difference is where it's felt & has the motor working against itself. Balancing carbs at 3k rpm never did any good whatsoever if they weren't balanced at idle; I can't imagine throttle bodies are that different wrt ridability f/x...

[dlaing]

BTW, when it comes to balancing [throttle bodies or carbs], it's done at idle,

Just when I thought we were near done, another something to possibly amend.

FWIW every manual I ever read and everyone I ever talked to, until now, balanced at idle and at a higher RPM.

But I am certainly willing to give it a try.

I gave balancing it below 3000 RPM a try and that worked surprisingly well.

If I ever get my WBO2 working, I'll have to test the effects of balance on O2 readings.

Do you just set your air bypass screws to one half turn out?

Thanks Skeeve!

[dlaing]

Hi, here are modifications to the September 9th version.

I am tired and taking cold medicine right now, so forgive me for errors...goodnight.

quote name='Ryland3210' date='Sep 9 2007, 06:43 PM' post='128737'

The Procedure below for adjusting throttle balance, air bypasses, linkage connecting rod, TPS and RPM is the product of contributions of numerous members of the V11 LeMans members, for which I am grateful. An important goal of the procedure was to make it easy, logical, with minimum trial and error guesswork.

IDLE TPS/THROTTLE BALANCING TUNING September 9, 2007

DRAFT September 27, 2007

For the following V11 Moto Guzzi made from 1999-2006

V11 Sport, Le Mans, Rosso Mandello, Scura, Tenni, Cafe Sport, Rosso Corsa, Nero Corsa, Naked Ballabio, and Coppa Italia.

First make sure the valves are adjusted. Here is a link to some good instructions

http://www.geocities.com/motoguzzi1064/Guz...alvesTorque.htm

First Then make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows: disconnect the connecting synchronization rod at the ball joint on the right side, back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5mm hex key, and back off the and "choke" cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike),

Turn on the ignition key, but do not start bike. Measure TPS voltage difference between two outer wires of TPS. If needed voltage is not 150 mV ±5 mV, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and rotate if needed. plus or minus 5 mV can be obtained with a little effort.

 

Next, close the bypasses both air bypass screws, reconnect the connecting synchronization rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash, and balance the throttles throttle bodies at idle using the connecting synchronization rod adjustment. Screw in the left throttle idle screw if the idle is too low to maintain. Do not use the choke for this purpose, because that would put the connecting rod in compression, introducing backlash, causing the throttle bodies to go out of balance.

 

Now adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .518 volts. + - .005 (corresponding to 3.4 somewhere between 3.5 and 3.6 degrees physical opening, as read by the optional diagnostic software) can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table.)

 

Next open the bypasses air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. Bypasses air bypass screwsshould be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage reading in steps of 15 mv and open the bypasses air bypass screws to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more. Check balance at midrange 2000 - 3000 RPM as follows:

 

A When checking balance at cruise 2000 - 3000 RPM, make any fine correction needed using the connecting synchronization rod adjustment, then:

B. Check balance at idle RPM. If OK, done, if not, rebalance at idle using the air bypass screws, and go back to step A.

 

Options: Adjust the idle mixture trim potentiometer under the label of the computer for best idle quality, or use a gas analyzer if available. However, according to Guzzijack, "not an option on the V11Sport as it uses the 15M ECU - manual adjustment of the idle mixture potentiometer is only applicable to bikes with the P7/P8 or 16M ECUs - 15M idle mixture adjust is only possible via factory or aftermarket software."

Use a gas analyzer if available to set the CO level

Use a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS to adjust the fuel trim, check throttle angle, RPM, and more

 

Once this procedure is completelycompleted successfully, in the future, minor changes in idle speed can be made simply by adjusting the left throttle idle screw. Since the throttle plates bodies have been balanced, backlash between them has been eliminated, and bypasses air bypass screws have been properly adjusted to maintain balance at idle, these should be stable for many miles.

/quote