Throttle Position Sensor

[dlaing]

Looks good to me. I really like the addendum. Perhaps it could specifically include the Ti ECU recommendations that Greg posted.

Here are a couple possible changes.

quote name='Ryland3210' date='Sep 30 2007, 05:27 PM' post='130144'

OK, here is another draft, hopefully taking everyone's concerns into account (which may be an imporssible dream, but worth a shot):

 

IDLE TPS/THROTTLE BALANCING TUNING

DRAFT September 30, 2007

For the following V11 Moto Guzzi motorcycles, made from 1999-2006

V11 Sport, Le Mans, Rosso Mandello, Scura, Tenni, Cafe Sport, Rosso Corsa, Nero Corsa, Naked Ballabio, and Coppa Italia.

 

If you suspect the valves need adjusting, do that first. Here is a link to some good instructions:

Lex's Valve Adjustment Procedure

 

Then make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows:

 

Disconnect the synchronization rod at the ball joint on the right side (the side with the TPS sensor), back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5mm hex key, and back off the "choke" cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike).

 

Turn on the ignition key, but do not start the bike. Measure the voltage difference between the two outer wires of the TPS. If the voltage is not 150 mV ±5 mV, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and gently rotate it as required. Be careful not to force it against the TPS’s internal stop in the direction of reducing the voltage, which could damage it. Plus or minus 5 mV can be obtained with a little effort.

 

To do the next step, you will need to connect a vacuum manometer (e.g. mercury stick) to each of the two ports on the intake fittings next to the cylinder head. These are normally connected together with a hose, which is to be temporarily disconnected.

 

Next, close both air bypass screws, reconnect the synchronization rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash. Start the engine and balance the throttle body vacuums at idle using the synchronization rod adjustment. Screw in the left throttle idle screw if the idle is too low to maintain. Do not use the choke for this purpose, because that would put the connecting rod in compression, introducing backlash, causing the throttle bodies to go out of balance.

 

Now adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .521 volts. + - .005 (corresponding to somewhere between 3.4 and 3.6 3.5 degrees physical opening, as read by the optional diagnostic software). This accuracy can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table. See also the note at the bottom under “Options”)

 

Next open both air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. Air bypass screws should be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage reading in steps of 15 mv and open the air bypass screws to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more.

 

Check balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM as follows:

A When checking balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM, make any fine correction needed using the synchronization rod adjustment, then:

B. Check balance at idle RPM. If OK, go to step C, if not, rebalance at idle using the air bypass screws, and go back to step A.

C. Disconnect the voltmeter and manometers. Replace the hose connecting the two intakes.

 

That completes the procedure.

 

Once this procedure is completed successfully, future minor changes in idle speed can be made simply by adjusting the left throttle idle screw. Since the throttle bodies have been balanced, backlash between them has been eliminated, and air bypass screws have been properly adjusted to maintain balance at idle, these should be stable for many miles.

 

Options:

Use a gas analyzer if available to set the CO level.

Use a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS to adjust the fuel trim, check throttle angle, RPM, and more.

The setting of .521 volts is in the middle of the range of published settings, and has been found to be reliable for stock motorcycles. However, for those who wish to follow specific instructions in their aftermarket parts, Moto Guzzi owners or service manuals, particularly for modified motorcycles, the table below shows the TPS voltage corresponding to various opening angles per the Magnetti Marelli OEM TPS specification. For other settings, here is the formula: 0.1061 volts/degree + 0.150

 

Degrees Volts DC

2.9 .458

3.4 .511

3.5 .521

3.6 .532

3.8 .553

4.0 .574

4.1 .585

/quote

[docc]

Should the engine be at operating temperature for the throttle body balancing?

[Ryland3210]

Should the engine be at operating temperature for the throttle body balancing?

 

Previously considered. No special note required. It will be warm enough for this purpose at the point where the initial balancing is done. It will definitely be warmed up enough by the time steps A,B,and C. are completed. In any event, engine temperature is not critical for this purpose.

 

Looks good to me. I really like the addendum.

quote name='Ryland3210' date='Sep 30 2007, 05:27 PM' post='130144'

OK, here is another draft, hopefully taking everyone's concerns into account (which may be an imporssible dream, but worth a shot):

 

IDLE TPS/THROTTLE BALANCING TUNING

DRAFT October 1, 2007

For the following V11 Moto Guzzi motorcycles, made from 1999-2006

V11 Sport, Le Mans, Rosso Mandello, Scura, Tenni, Cafe Sport, Rosso Corsa, Nero Corsa, Naked Ballabio, and Coppa Italia.

 

If you suspect the valves need adjusting, do that first. Here is a link to some good instructions:

http://www.geocities.com/motoguzzi1064/Guz...alvesTorque.htm

 

Then make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows:

 

Disconnect the synchronization rod at the ball joint on the right side (the side with the TPS sensor), back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5mm hex key, and back off the "choke" cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike).

 

Turn on the ignition key, but do not start the bike. Measure the voltage difference between the two outer wires of the TPS. If the voltage is not 150 mV ±5 mV, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and gently rotate it as required. Be careful not to force it against the TPS’s internal stop in the direction of reducing the voltage, which could damage it. Plus or minus 5 mV can be obtained with a little effort.

 

To do the next step, you will need to connect a vacuum manometer (e.g. mercury stick) to each of the two ports on the intake fittings next to the cylinder head. These are normally connected together with a hose, which is to be temporarily disconnected.

 

Next, close both air bypass screws, reconnect the synchronization rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash. Start the engine and balance the throttle body vacuums at idle using the synchronization rod adjustment. Screw in the left throttle idle screw if the idle is too low to maintain. Do not use the choke for this purpose, because that would put the connecting rod in compression, introducing backlash, causing the throttle bodies to go out of balance.

 

Now adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .521 volts. + - .005 (corresponding to 3.5 degrees physical opening, as read by the optional diagnostic software). This accuracy can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table. See also the note at the bottom under “Options”)

 

Next open both air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. Air bypass screws should be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage reading in steps of 15 mv and open the air bypass screws to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more.

 

Check balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM as follows:

A When checking balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM, make any fine correction needed using the synchronization rod adjustment, then:

B. Check balance at idle RPM. If OK, go to step C, if not, rebalance at idle using the air bypass screws, and go back to step A.

C. Disconnect the voltmeter and manometers. Replace the hose connecting the two intakes.

 

That completes the procedure.

 

Once this procedure is completed successfully, future minor changes in idle speed can be made simply by adjusting the left throttle idle screw. Since the throttle bodies have been balanced, backlash between them has been eliminated, and air bypass screws have been properly adjusted to maintain balance at idle, these should be stable for many miles.

 

Options:

Use a gas analyzer if available to set the CO level.

Use a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS to adjust the fuel trim, check throttle angle, RPM, and more.

The setting of .521 volts is in the middle of the range of published settings, and has been found to be reliable for stock motorcycles. However, for those who wish to follow specific instructions in their aftermarket parts, Moto Guzzi owners or service manuals, particularly for modified motorcycles, the table below shows the TPS voltage corresponding to various opening angles per the Magnetti Marelli OEM TPS specification. For other settings, here is the formula: 0.1061 volts/degree + 0.150

 

Degrees Volts DC

2.9 .458

3.4 .511

3.5 .521

3.6 .532

3.8 .553

4.0 .574

4.1 .585

/quote

 

Regarding Greg's comments: There are many sources of recommended degrees open at idle. I don't think it is appropriate to highlight one out of the many out there. Besides, it does not agree with the OEM sensor specs.

 

I've made the other changes you suggested.

[dlaing]

IDLE TPS/THROTTLE BALANCING TUNING

Final???DRAFT October 1, 2007

For the following V11 Moto Guzzi motorcycles, made from 1999-2006

V11 Sport, Le Mans, Rosso Mandello, Scura, Tenni, Cafe Sport, Rosso Corsa, Nero Corsa, Naked Ballabio, and Coppa Italia.

 

If you suspect the valves need adjusting, do that first. Here is a link to some good instructions:

http://www.geocities.com/motoguzzi1064/Guz...alvesTorque.htm

 

Then make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows:

 

Disconnect the synchronization rod at the ball joint on the right side (the side with the TPS sensor), back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5mm hex key, and back off the "choke" cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike).

 

Turn on the ignition key, but do not start the bike. Measure the voltage difference between the two outer wires of the TPS. If the voltage is not 150 mV ±5 mV, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and gently rotate it as required. Be careful not to force it against the TPS’s internal stop in the direction of reducing the voltage, which could damage it. Plus or minus 5 mV can be obtained with a little effort.

 

To do the next step, you will need to connect a vacuum manometer (e.g. mercury stick) to each of the two ports on the intake fittings next to the cylinder head. These are normally connected together with a hose, which is to be temporarily disconnected.

 

Next, close both air bypass screws, reconnect the synchronization rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash. Start the engine and balance the throttle body vacuums at idle using the synchronization rod adjustment. Screw in the left throttle idle screw if the idle is too low to maintain. Do not use the choke for this purpose, because that would put the connecting rod in compression, introducing backlash, causing the throttle bodies to go out of balance.

 

Now adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .521 volts. + - .005 (corresponding to 3.5 degrees physical opening, as read by the optional diagnostic software). This accuracy can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table. See also the note at the bottom under “Options”)

 

Next open both air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. Air bypass screws should be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage reading in steps of 15 mv and open the air bypass screws to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more.

 

Check balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM as follows:

A When checking balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM, make any fine correction needed using the synchronization rod adjustment, then:

B. Check balance at idle RPM. If OK, go to step C, if not, rebalance at idle using the air bypass screws, and go back to step A.

C. Disconnect the voltmeter and manometers. Replace the hose connecting the two intakes.

 

That completes the procedure.

 

Once this procedure is completed successfully, future minor changes in idle speed can be made simply by adjusting the left throttle idle screw. Since the throttle bodies have been balanced, backlash between them has been eliminated, and air bypass screws have been properly adjusted to maintain balance at idle, these should be stable for many miles.

 

Options:

Use a gas analyzer if available to set the CO level.

Use a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS to adjust the fuel trim, check throttle angle, RPM, and more.

The setting of .521 volts is in the middle of the range of published settings, and has been found to be reliable for stock motorcycles. However, for those who wish to follow specific instructions in their aftermarket parts, Moto Guzzi owners or service manuals, particularly for modified motorcycles, the table below shows the TPS voltage corresponding to various opening angles per the Magnetti Marelli OEM TPS specification. For other settings, here is the formula: 0.1061 volts/degree + 0.150

 

Degrees Volts DC

2.9 .458

3.4 .511

3.5 .521

3.6 .532

3.8 .553

4.0 .574

4.1 .585

[Ryland3210]

I think we are done.

 

I've put it in my useful technotes file so it can be emailed to anyone who needs it in the future.

 

I don't know what powers that be govern what goes into the How To section, but in my opinion, this is now ready to help anyone who needs it.

 

What mystery to science conversion project can we work on next?

[dlaing]

I think we are done.

 

I've put it in my useful technotes file so it can be emailed to anyone who needs it in the future.

 

I don't know what powers that be govern what goes into the How To section, but in my opinion, this is now ready to help anyone who needs it.

 

What mystery to science conversion project can we work on next?

I'm going to copy this to the how to forum and to my web site (I assume you won't object)

We could also have Al put it in the FAQ section, but it might be good to get comments about it in the How to forum.

Maybe we should have an admin delete this thread to hide the incriminating evidence.

Next mystery to science conversion project: How to eliminate the 4000RPM flat spot

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12100

I think we may need a WIKI to be more productive.

 

 

Oh wait, we forgot to add pictures!

[dlaing]

Oh wait, we forgot to add pictures!

IDLE TPS/THROTTLE BALANCING TUNING

Really Almost Final DRAFT October 2, 2007

For the following V11 Moto Guzzi motorcycles, made from 1999-2006

V11 Sport, Le Mans, Rosso Mandello, Scura, Tenni, Cafe Sport, Rosso Corsa, Nero Corsa, Naked Ballabio, and Coppa Italia.

 

If you suspect the valves need adjusting, do that first. Here is a link to some good instructions:

http://www.geocities.com/motoguzzi1064/Guz...alvesTorque.htm

 

Then make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows:

 

Disconnect the synchronization rod at the ball joint on the right side (the side with the TPS sensor), back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5mm hex key, and back off the "choke" cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike).

 

Turn on the ignition key, but do not start the bike. Measure the voltage difference between the two outer wires of the TPS. If the voltage is not 150 mV ±5 mV, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and gently rotate it as required. Be careful not to force it against the TPS’s internal stop in the direction of reducing the voltage, which could damage it. Plus or minus 5 mV can be obtained with a little effort.

 

To do the next step, you will need to connect a vacuum manometer (e.g. mercury stick) to each of the two ports on the intake fittings next to the cylinder head. These are normally connected together with a hose, which is to be temporarily disconnected.

 

Next, close both air bypass screws, reconnect the synchronization rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash. Start the engine and balance the throttle body vacuums at idle using the synchronization rod adjustment. Screw in the left throttle idle screw if the idle is too low to maintain. Do not use the choke for this purpose, because that would put the connecting rod in compression, introducing backlash, causing the throttle bodies to go out of balance.

 

Now adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .521 volts. + - .005 (corresponding to 3.5 degrees physical opening, as read by the optional diagnostic software). This accuracy can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table. See also the note at the bottom under “Options”)

 

Next open both air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. Air bypass screws should be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage reading in steps of 15 mv and open the air bypass screws to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more.

 

Check balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM as follows:

A When checking balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM, make any fine correction needed using the synchronization rod adjustment, then:

B. Check balance at idle RPM. If OK, go to step C, if not, rebalance at idle using the air bypass screws, and go back to step A.

C. Disconnect the voltmeter and manometers. Replace the hose connecting the two intakes.

 

That completes the procedure.

 

Once this procedure is completed successfully, future minor changes in idle speed can be made simply by adjusting the left throttle idle screw. Since the throttle bodies have been balanced, backlash between them has been eliminated, and air bypass screws have been properly adjusted to maintain balance at idle, these should be stable for many miles.

 

Options:

Use a gas analyzer if available to set the CO level.

Use a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS to adjust the fuel trim, check throttle angle, RPM, and more.

The setting of .521 volts is in the middle of the range of published settings, and has been found to be reliable for stock motorcycles. However, for those who wish to follow specific instructions in their aftermarket parts, Moto Guzzi owners or service manuals, particularly for modified motorcycles, the table below shows the TPS voltage corresponding to various opening angles per the Magnetti Marelli OEM TPS specification. For other settings, here is the formula: 0.1061 volts/degree + 0.150

 

Degrees Volts DC

2.9 .458

3.4 .511

3.5 .521

3.6 .532

3.8 .553

4.0 .574

4.1 .585

 

Larger image click here

 

 

Larger image click here

[Guest Phil_P]

Just a small aside, The advice from Todd Eagan at Guzzitech for my custom map was to set TPS at idle setting, engine off, ignition on, sync rod connected, to a value of 238mV. I am also unable to get my TPS to go as low as 150 mV at all, even off the throttle body using a screw driver to ensure it is fully home. Is this likely to be a duff TPS? Does anyone know the Harley part that can be used as a replacement?

 

Cheers

[Ryland3210]

Just a small aside, The advice from Todd Eagan at Guzzitech for my custom map was to set TPS at idle setting, engine off, ignition on, sync rod connected, to a value of 238mV. I am also unable to get my TPS to go as low as 150 mV at all, even off the throttle body using a screw driver to ensure it is fully home. Is this likely to be a duff TPS? Does anyone know the Harley part that can be used as a replacement?

 

Cheers

 

If you are going to custom map with a Power Commander to compensate for TPS settings which are not calibrated to fully closed right throttle body, that's fine. That's because the custom map will compensate for the offset calibration of the TPS. For those with standard equipment, the procedure provided here should be followed.

 

You should have no problem getting to 150mv, since that is 3% higher than the zero position of the TPS. First make sure the right idle screw is out far enough so it isn't holding the butterfly open. Check to see that your choke cam is fully retracted by its cable. It might be preventing full closure. My bike's choke cable interfered, and required adjusting the cable clamp to permit full retraction. If the throttle butterfly is fully closed, it should feel like it is sticking shut to a small degree when you try to open it by hand. Your TPS should be no problem to set to 150mv, unless it is defective, or if, for some mysterious reason, the oblong holes in it are just not long enough to permit the adjustment.

 

The Harley part has been used successfully as a replacement. However, if you look earlier in this thread, you will find the chart that shows it has a different transfer function than the Magnetti Marelli standard TPS. It provides a different mixture and ignition advance curve.

 

dlaing,

 

The link to the valve adjustment does not work on my computer. It should either be fixed, if possible, or deleted.

 

With that change, and your pictures, I think it's useful. I see nothing to lose in placing it in both How To and FAQ. Both of these make sense, and will be places people will look for this kind of guidance.

 

I'd like to submit it to Guzzitech as well, with suitable credit to ourselves as authors and acknowledging contributions by others.

[Ryland3210]

I'm going to copy this to the how to forum and to my web site (I assume you won't object)

We could also have Al put it in the FAQ section, but it might be good to get comments about it in the How to forum.

Maybe we should have an admin delete this thread to hide the incriminating evidence.

Next mystery to science conversion project: How to eliminate the 4000RPM flat spot

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12100

I think we may need a WIKI to be more productive.

Oh wait, we forgot to add pictures!

 

I'm against deleting it, as tempting as that may be, and here's why.

 

First, my observation is that no one in the forum, and that includes me, has reached such a pinnacle of credibility and wisdom to be beyond challenge. Were we to present the procedure without the background, many would be reluctance to trust it, just because we say so. Personally, I enjoy technical challenges, and have no problem with being proved wrong. However, once something is understood and explained, I prefer to move on. The challenges will likely ensue, and we could quickly get bogged down with responding and re-educating. So how can we avoid that? We can't completely, but we can handle the vast majority.

 

This thread has a lot of useful discussion, challenges, suggestions, questions, and research data within. That will be handy in the future, when those who have not participated in or followed its development challenge the method, make suggestions already considered, or raise questions already dealt with in the study. Hopefully, we won't have to respond to the same things over and over, and can simply refer them to the original thread. My suggestion on that is to include a note to that effect in the How To and FAQ sections along with the link.

 

Then we can be more productive by working on yet unsolved mysteries.

 

Oh, and by the way, we didn't forget to provide pictures, we just remembered late!

[Guest Phil_P]

Ryland, I appreciate all that you said, as I said it was merely an aside and another data point should anyone wish to use it.

 

As for getting the TPS to 150 mV, you missed what I posted. Even with the TPS off the throttle body, and using a screw driver in the actuation slot to close it down (the one that mates with the butterfly spindle), the TPS would NOT go down to 150mV, with about 160 being the absolute lowest it would go to. I removed the TPS from the throttle body to ensure that it was not a case of binding or the butterfly not returning to closed.

 

I note that it has been argued that the variation in the angle/voltage curve between the Harley part and the Guzzi part could simply be normal variation in parts and not a difference in specification.

[Guest ratchethack]

Phil, please advise if you think this is wrong, but per my own experience (and a prev. post), I believe if you took a voltage reading at the TPS with a different battery, or the same battery in a slightly different state of charge, that your reading at the TPS would likewise vary in the range of +/- tens of mV.

[Guest Phil_P]

Well if the voltage regulator in the ECU is doing it's job, then it really shouldn't do this as it should be supplying a nice clean 5V. I have also uprated the voltage reg in my 16M ECU (note, NOT an MY16). As long as the battery is supplying more than the minimum voltage required to regulate to 5 V then TPS voltage shouldn't vary with battery state of charge.

 

In fact if it DID make a big difference, then the whole thread on setting TPS voltages would be kinda waste of time.

 

Easy enough to prove, just check the voltage on the supply rail to the TPS.

[Ryland3210]

Ryland, I appreciate all that you said, as I said it was merely an aside and another data point should anyone wish to use it.

 

As for getting the TPS to 150 mV, you missed what I posted. Even with the TPS off the throttle body, and using a screw driver in the actuation slot to close it down (the one that mates with the butterfly spindle), the TPS would NOT go down to 150mV, with about 160 being the absolute lowest it would go to. I removed the TPS from the throttle body to ensure that it was not a case of binding or the butterfly not returning to closed.

 

I note that it has been argued that the variation in the angle/voltage curve between the Harley part and the Guzzi part could simply be normal variation in parts and not a difference in specification.

 

My apologies. I missed your point. It definitely looks like you have a defective TPS. Even though 10mv isn't much, there may also be to large a deadzone where the wiper contact is rubbing on the end of the resistor's span.

 

It was me that argued that the variation between the Harley and Guzzi part could be normal production variation. However, subsequent data from the manufacturers provided in the thread proved otherwise, and I realize now there is a real difference. That's also the basis for my 3% comment.

[Guest Phil_P]

 

It was me that argued that the variation between the Harley and Guzzi part could be normal production variation. However, subsequent data from the manufacturers provided in the thread proved otherwise, and I realize now there is a real difference. That's also the basis for my 3% comment.

 

Ah, in that case MY apologies are due also as I missed the updated information.