tires 2002 LeMans

[Guest ratchethack]

I wondered, what is the best tread design for rain? I'm not asking about rubber composition, just the tread.

 

I had a detailed discussion with some technical types at the NY motorcycle show. My question was, given the few grooves and wide spacing compared to automobile tires intended for good traction on wet roads, how effective were the grooves on the typical sport bike tires at preventing hydro planing?

John, seems to me you've asked a question that's not entirely relevant, since tread design is only ONE aspect of many interdependent aspects of design that contribute to optimum road handling in the wet. Looking at tread design alone and trying to extrapolate capabilities in the wet can be very misleading and entirely counter-intuitive -- the same may be said of tread patterns for road tires in the dry. Though there will be some common similarities in tread design of tires that test well in the wet, there will typically be more differences than similarities. IMHO there is no such thing as a "best tread design for rain."

I'm sorry to say that none of those I asked at the show could give me a satisfactory answer. When I pressed on the issue, the general answer was that the tire design had primarily revolved around dry pavement cornering and traction.

John, of course moto tire designs revolve around dry pavement cornering and traction. Can you imagine successful sales of a road tire designed primarily for riding in the wet?? Tire design is necessarily a constant and very complex balance of trade-offs.

 

Of course, compounds used, and entire structure of steel radial tires are probably more important than subtle differences in tread design, and all of these aspects of a tire interact in very complex ways. For example, it's not difficult to imagine a tread design that works better at resisting hydroplaning and staying on track better than another tread design in standing water at 70 mph, but which ALSO loses traction far earlier than other tread designs as soon as curving pavement is encountered. Of course, a good road tire for the wet has to have well-balanced capabilities in all circumstances encountered on the road. Rigorous testing will reflect a broad range of real-world conditions on the road, with varying degrees of bias toward dry priorities over wet.

 

I note that dry vs. wet tire designs for the road were once thought to be to some degree mutually exclusive territory from a technology and design perspective. In other words, if you wanted a tire that worked well in the wet, you were obliged to pick a tire that was less than stellar in the dry, and vice versa. Today, we actually see the same tires at the top of both the dry and wet tire evaluations. Moto tire design has become so advanced in recent years (I think of the last decade or so as the Golden Age of moto tires ) that IMHO it's little but futile speculation, even for highly qualified engineers, to attempt to reverse-engineer the way a tire will behave in the wet (or dry) by attempting to separate tread design considerations from such a highly-engineered and tightly integrated whole.

 

There are those who refuse to consider competitive tire testing and evaluations with claims that they're corrupt and biased. This is a fair enough concern. However, when you look at many different tests done by many different non-related testing entities, I find a high correlation between them on the test ranking results (entirely unlike motorcycle evaluations, for example, where rankings tend to be much more subjective). As posted several times fairly recently, both Motorrad and Moto Revue published moto tire testing comparisons for Sport/Touring tires that lined up about as accurately as possible, with only a few one-point shifts in the rankings here and there. To me, this would seem to lend credibility to both.

 

Stolen and re-re-re-stolen from a previous thread:

 

The German mag MOTORRAD had an interesting tire comparo where they

determined the best sport-touring tire and the best sport tire for

street/trackday in the dry and wet with lap-times that don't lie and

also tire wear/longevity. Interesting was also that the difference in

corner speed between the best sport-touring tire and the best sport

tire was only 2,5 mph and they said todays best touring tires have

more than adequate traction for all kind of streetriding. Only if you

do trackdays and are fast enough to get the sport tires warm enough

sport tires are safer and the way to go...

Sport-Touring tires;

dry:

1) Metzeler Z6

and Conti Road Attack

2)Pirelli Diablo Strada

3)Dunlop D220

4)Michelin Pilot Road

5)Bridgestone BT020

6)Avon Azaro

wet:

1)Pirelli Diablo Strada

2)Metzeler Z6

3)Michelin Pilot Road

4)Conti Road Attack

5)dunlop D220

6)Bridgestone BT020

7)Avon Azaro

Between the best and worst tire were 5,5 sec difference in lap time!

 

BTW: RE: previous posts in this thread, I'd be very careful about making statements that Metzeler Z6 and Pirelli Strada (Dragon, Diablo, wotever model you choose) tires are the SAME TIRE from different manufacturers. Though Metz and Pirelli have shared SOME OF the same engineering, manufacturing, etc. on many different tire models for over a decade, I have NEVER SEEN Metzeler Z6 tires (my personal choice) test the same as ANY Pirelli, and note that they are typically priced quite differently -- not to mention getting entirely different mileage numbers and having different tread patterns!! My personal read on this is that Pirelli/Metzeler has very carefully analyzed their target market, and produces products very carefully designed to provide wot riders are demanding, and out-sells the competition in the process -- and IMHO they're continuing to do an extraordinary job at delivering on exactly that!

[Ryland3210]

Hey Ratchethack, thanks for the recap.

What's the date on the test report?

 

When a tire tread has grooves so far apart that there are times when none are in contact with the road, as were some I discussed with the "experts" at the MC show, it's hard to imagine they contribute much, if anything to cornering traction wet or dry. I suppose traction depends significantly on how soft the rubber is (AND OF COURSE NUMEROUS OTHER FACTORS!).

 

It seems straightforward for a maker to use a softer rubber to gain traction at the expense of life.

 

The OE tires on my bike are Metzler Sport Tec M1m

What do you think of these?

 

Do you have an opinion on whether a universal tread design would provide reasonable wet cornering traction and longer life? Do any of the tires in the test report have anything like a universal tread?

 

Thanks,

John

[Guest ratchethack]

Hey Ratchethack, thanks for the recap.

What's the date on the test report?

Por nada, mi compadre. John, I think I posted the full results of both the Motorrad and Moto Revue reports with links to Sport Rider when they first came out about a year back. Now those links are gone.

When a tire tread has grooves so far apart that there are times when none are in contact with the road, as were some I discussed with the "experts" at the MC show, it's hard to imagine they contribute much, if anything to cornering traction wet or dry. I suppose traction depends significantly on how soft the rubber is (AND OF COURSE NUMEROUS OTHER FACTORS!).

This is wot I meant by 'counter-intuitive' above. If you look at BOTH the top rated tires in the Motorrad comparo above, the #1 and #2 ranked tires in BOTH wet and dry have NO grooving in the center. Now wots going on at the contact patch is wot counts, and that's a different matter altogether. Of course "softness" of the rubber is now a much more complex thing and involves lots more chemistry than it once did...

It seems straightforward for a maker to use a softer rubber to gain traction at the expense of life.

It would seem so by conventional wisdom and historic precedent, and yet with dual compound tires like the Metz Z6, we have now thrown convention a significant curve.

The OE tires on my bike are Metzler Sport Tec M1m

What do you think of these?

I ran a set of M-1's a few years back and took 2 rears to wear out a M-1 front. They were without question the stickiest and best handling Sport tires I've ever had the great pleasure to turn around mountain roads at truly inspired speeds. The relatively short life of the rear at 5K miles (I'm talking COMPLETELY used up, they were squared-off enough to compromise handling by 4K miles) was the inspiration to go to Z6's, which gave 7500K mi at last go-round on the rear, and I'm happier with these, having given up only a tiny bit of grip and gained quicker steering and a +50% boost in cost/mile as well as a 50% decrease in change-out hassle factor. Metz Z6's are without Q the finest tire I've ever had the sorely undeserved privilege and immense pleasure to ride on -- Sport/Touring or Sport.

Do you have an opinion on whether a universal tread design would provide reasonable wet cornering traction and longer life? Do any of the tires in the test report have anything like a universal tread?

Sorry, John -- me no savvy "universal tread"?? I completely ignore wot the tread looks like. I'm only interested in 2 things -- performance and longevity, and I generally make the requisite effort to get caught up on the latest whenever it's time for a new tire. I figure however the engineers and mfgr's. choose to get their testing results is their business. Riding on the very best available is mine.

 

Hope this helps.

[antonio carroccio]

 

I ran a set of M-1's a few years back and took 2 rears to wear out a M-1 front. They were without question the stickiest and best handling Sport tires I've ever had the great pleasure to turn around mountain roads at

!!!WoW!!! This surprise me, a lot! M1 Metzeler Sportec was by me the worsted tyre ever had.

Only the Dunlop 218 was more worst.

The front tyre of the M1 was after 3500/4000 km completely burned up.

No grip at all in the front. I have got to work a lot to get the bike down and keep it there.

The rear tyre was too apatic or inert.

My Le Mans wear now the Z6 Metzeler. This is a hell of a tyre. I would say better then Diablo.

[Guest ratchethack]

Antonio, to each his own. I remember you posting on this many years ago. As far as I recall, you'd be the only one on this Forum who didn't like the M-1's -- before this or since . . .

 

I found it particularly necessary to get way forward on the bike to overcome the rear weight bias of the Guzzi chassis with these tires. This done, the chassis becomes more balanced, the front end doesn't "push", and the M-1's make it extremely accurate and 100% predictable all the way up to the lateral traction limit, which comes on quite predictably and controllably. I ran the M-1's at 34 lbs. F and 37 lbs. rear. I absolutely loved 'em.

 

Glad you like the Z6's, though. I find the feel of Z6's quite similar to M-1's with less "Sport tire trade-offs" for such a heavy bike as the Guzzi. IMHO it helps to get up over the front wheel with these too, but to a somewhat lesser extent, since I found they're even more forgiving in this and other regards than the M-1's. Will anyone (even Metzeler) EVER come out with a better tire in the Sport/Touring class?!?!

[antonio carroccio]

I remember you posting on this many years ago...

Ratch, this make me feel very old

hope to meet you sometime

[Skeeve]

 

When a tire tread has grooves so far apart that there are times when none are in contact with the road, as were some I discussed with the "experts" at the MC show, it's hard to imagine they contribute much, if anything to cornering traction wet or dry. I suppose traction depends significantly on how soft the rubber is (AND OF COURSE NUMEROUS OTHER FACTORS!).

 

"Grooves" or "tread" on a road tire aren't there for "traction" in the manner of off-road tires: they exist solely as negative space to shed water or dirt, so that the rubber of the tire can get a cleaner grip on the road surface. Off-road tires have deep, sharp-edged voids so that the loose dirt can fill'em up, get compacted, & get thrown back [kinda like rocket propulsion, really... ] "Universal" tread tires are neither fish nor foul & generally suck in either application...

[Baldini]

....Will anyone (even Metzeler) EVER come out with a better tire in the Sport/Touring class...

 

Have you tried all the other sport touring tyres currently available?

 

KB

[Guest ratchethack]

Have you tried all the other sport touring tyres currently available?

 

KB

The way I figure it, Keith, if you're running the tires most often ranked #1 in class in all the top tire evaluations, and they're the best you've ever had, there ain't much sense in going down the list.

 

Now of course, most of the evaluations could be ALL WRONG, but since they'd ALL have to be consistently wrong, I'm willing to take the risk that they just could be on to something. . .

 

And that, my friend, is wot I consider a low-risk chance that I'm willing to take.

 

And you?

[Baldini]

...And you?

 

 

My point is how do you know they're the best ever sport/touring tyre when you didn't try the others?

 

The quoted press report (an evaluation of road performance conducted on a racetrack - ?) has... Dry; Conti & Metz equal top , Wet; Pirelli top, Metz second - hardly conclusive for Metz? IMO most journalists are like the rest of us; their valuations are a mixture of limited experience, prejudice, marketing pressures & prevailing fashion. I'm not saying the Z6 aren't the best tyre ever, I wouldn't know, but neither I think do you! It's the tyre you like best of those you've tried.

 

Me, I don't use sport touring tyres now. Of the ones I tried, I didn't like the BT020, I did like the Diablo.

 

KB

[Guest ratchethack]

My point is how do you know they're the best ever sport/touring tyre when you didn't try the others?

 

The quoted press report (an evaluation of road performance conducted on a racetrack - ?) has Conti & Metz equal top in dry, Pirelli top in wet, Metz second - hardly conclusive for Metz? IMO most journalists are like the rest of us; their valuations are a mixture of limited experience, prejudice, marketing pressures & prevailing fashion. I'm not saying the Z6 aren't the best tyre ever, I wouldn't know, but neither I think do you!

 

Me, I don't use sport touring tyres anymore. Of the ones I tried, I didn't like the BT020, I did like the Diablo.

 

KB

Keith! I welcome your challenge here, HOWEVER:

 

When making testing comparisons and coming up with a competitive RANKING, it turns out that a track is much more suitable to test different road tires under identical conditions than attempting such a thing on the road, as is explained in such comparo's as Motorrad and Moto Revue's annual comparo's. How else would you suggest they come up with a fair ranking??

 

I asked a QUESTION about anyone coming out with a better tire. Did you interpret this as a statement that I KNOW wot the best tire is?? Such a Question can hardly be considered such a statement, n'est-ce pas? I b'lieve I indicated with no little enthusiasm that I have a personal choice -- like so many others.

 

Do you know anyone who HAS tried all the contenders on any evaluation list? D'you think it's feasible for any non-Pro rider to actually do this?? Seems to me the point of competitive evaluations is to help riders make a choice with some confidence so they don't have to try them all??

 

I also b'lieve I've made a case in many previous threads for the major tire mfgrs. all being SO GOOD these days that there's little potential to make a mistake with ANY of the class leaders on the eval lists??

 

Is there any part of any of my posts where it appears to you that I've said I KNOW wot the best tire is?? Is there any part of my posts where it appears that I've even said that such a thing as a "best tire" for EVERYONE even exists??

 

I b'lieve I've made a case for safely selecting from the TOP of evaluation lists based on 2 criteria: PERFORMANCE rankings from a number of the most credible evaluations in the business, and on MILEAGE. If ranking consistently in the top 2 (or 3, or even 4) on many lists isn't considered within the leaders (plural), then I reckon I don't know wot IS??

[Baldini]

...I asked a QUESTION about anyone coming out with a better tire. Did you interpret this as a statement that I KNOW wot the best tire is?? Such a Question can hardly be considered such a statement...

 

Implicit in "will there ever be a better tyre than X" is "X is the best tyre now".

 

KB

[Guest ratchethack]

Implicit in "will there ever be a better tyre than X" is "X is the best tyre now".

 

KB

Well pardon my enthusiasm, Keith. You're right. My apologies. I reckon I let it get the best of me, after all.

 

I retract all such implications, real or imagined.

 

To each his own, and may no man as much as IMPLY he knows wot's "best" -- least of all, for anyone else! Heaven forfend!!

 

We simply can't have any of that sort of thing here!

[stobie]

I know of quite a few guys riding "sporting", but not "sport" bikes (i.e., VFR, Multistrada), using a sport tire on the front, and the same brand's corresponding sport-touring tire on the back. This seems to work quite well on bikes with, say, less than 100 HP at the rear wheel, which aren't likely to break the rear end loose coming out of a corner.

 

The primary benefit is longer life from the rear tire with no significant loss of traction, which often leads to the convenient result that both tires need replacement at the same time.

 

As far as the mis-match goes, the profiles of the rear sport v. sport-touring tires often match, while the fronts usually don't.

 

The combo of Pilot Power front/Pilot Road rear is a popular one. Some guys like the BT014 front/BT020 rear (now BT021, I guess).

 

Has anyone tried this on a V11?

[Skeeve]

I know of quite a few guys riding "sporting", but not "sport" bikes (i.e., VFR, Multistrada), using a sport tire on the front, and the same brand's corresponding sport-touring tire on the back. This seems to work quite well on bikes with, say, less than 100 HP at the rear wheel, which aren't likely to break the rear end loose coming out of a corner....

 

Has anyone tried this on a V11?

 

Yes. For the longest time, the fitment of choice seemed to be BT010F/BT020R, or equivalent. Then the MEZ6 came out and everyone who tried'em never looked back...

 

In the grand scheme of things, I'm simply not a fast enough rider to seriously evaluate tire in dry conditions. I *can* tell you that I have little confidence in MEZ4s in the wet from my experience with how squirrelly they get when crossing over paint lines in the street any time there's the least hint of moisture in the air. Conti Sports [precursor to the Road Attacks] were a significant improvement, but could still get a little sketchy when mist was in the air. The Z6s are another big step up from the Sports. Currently running an Avon AV46 in the rear on my daily rider [an SV650], & so far it's like a giant leap backwards, even less impressive than the MEZ4s that came w/ the SV, but a BIG part of that may just be due to the tire's age [a closeout deal that I had in hand when a shop was repairing my SV after an accident, and put on the Z6s w/o my authorization; I suspect they wanted to take the SV to a track day, since they put close to 500mi on it after they put the new tires on... ]

 

As Ratch' said, this is the golden age for moto tire technolog: you can hardly go wrong by fitting new tires of the appropriate type & proper fitment from any of the major quality brands. Key words to look for are "dual compound," "high silica," and of course, "sport."