Lemon Laws & Moto Guzzi

[cycdude6]

As presented in a previous post my new Ballabio has the following issues:

Fuel tank suck

Bad kill switch

leaky forks

battery drain in 45 mins of operation

parts fell off kickstand

low fuel light doesn't work.

 

In three weeks of ownership I've managed to only put 400 miles on it, without one trip being breakdown free.

 

I've delivered the bike (one hour drive) to Wagner Motor Sports, who wouldn't come pick it up. Two business days pass, the service department tells me it will be at least a week and probably more before the parts come in.

 

The state of Massachusetts has a Lemon Law that states...There's a specific process that anyone considering using the Massachusetts Lemon Law must follow:

 

You need to bring the car (or other vehicle) in for repair of the same problem at least three times or for a total of 15 days.

You need to officially notify the manufacturer of one final attempt to repair the vehicle. The manufacturer has seven days to comply.

If the manufacturer tries to repair it and fails, you have the right to ask for a refund or replacement. If the manufacturer does not respond to your final request, you need to ask for a mediation or arbitration hearing.

 

Has anyone gone the Lemon Law route before?

 

Ask me if I'd ever buy another Guzzi, go ahead, I dare you! I've owned 20 bikes over the years and I don't think I've had this many problems combined. Damn I'm getting angry at Guzzi. Who do you contact at Guzzi to complain? Anyone?

[waspp]

It seems to me the dealer has a responsibility here for some of your issues. Machines should be properly set up and checked out before delivery. if faulty parts are to blame the dealer should be your advocate with the manufacturer, heck at the BMW shop where my son works they will pull parts of a new machine on the floor if its nescessary to get you going. The tank suck issue shouldn't be a drivability problem for an 04 as the pump is located inside the tank. Many of the things you point to are minor and believe it or not happen to all machines, many caught by good responsible dealers before delivery.

[Ryland3210]

One you haven't mentioned is the speedo cable. The sharp bend of the housing at the transmission end causes early failure of the cable. The cable broke after a little over 100 miles the first time. The replacement lasted about 1200 miles. The version originally supplied on the '04 was superseded by a new design. Apparently MG recognized the design flaw. While the dealer is taking care of the other problems, make sure he replaces the OE housing and cable with the current design.

 

FWIW, I have been waiting for Branchville motors to get one from MG now for two weeks.

 

I also had the low fuel light fail in 70 miles. That's worked fine since the sensor was replaced. It's inside the fuel tank, so the tipover valve can be oriented properly while the tank is off. The tank suction problem is caused by the tipover valve not being tie wrapped in the correct vertical position. One owner reported it had been installed upside down. I fixed this problem myself, with help from this forum. No problems since.

 

On my '04, the seat base rested on the battery, causing it to develop at leak at the terminal. The battery was replaced by the dealer with a factory prepared Yuasa (available from Bombardier). However, I bent the battery support brackets to lower its forward end, and carved a chunk out of the plastic seat base to prevent it resting on the battery along with my body weight. Your seat may be different, since mine is a Cafe Sport. No problems with the battery since then. I did not have a discharge problem. Another factor is the charging method. If the battery in your bike was allowed to discharge and the dealer used a fast rate of charge, he may have permanently reduced the battery's capacity. For example, the maximum charging currrent on the Yuasa version is 1/10 the amp hour capacity. That's 1.2 amps.

 

It's not always the dealer that's at fault. At times it has taken a long time for MG to ship out parts to them. If your dealer has a good relationship with others, he can buy the parts from another dealer that has them in stock. For examply, MPH in texas is one you might try. If you contact them and they have the parts needed in stock, you could then tell Wagner where to get them so you and they don't have to wait for the factory to respond.

 

If you get past these initial issues, I believe you will come to enjoy the bike as many of us have. You'll have plenty of fellow riders and dealer service techs that are members of this forum to help as well.

[GuzziMoto]

An unfortunate truth of Guzzi's is that bikes are shipped out of the factory "mostly done". It is normal for a few issues to crop up in the first 1k or so miles. Mine and my wifes were both like that. In addition, I believe you bought a brand new leftover "04. If that's the case then consider that it is no longer a current bike. They don't make them anymore(too bad, they are sweeet). Therefore the parts for them are not kept in stock as much as a new bike would be(you get the same issue with any brand) and there aren't others sitting around that a dealer could "borrow" the parts from.

I'm sorry to here of your distress and hope you perservere. I think if you stick it out you will find that after the first few issues are resolved, Guzzi's are well made motorcycles that can out last many other "better" bikes. I will say though, that if you expect your Guzzi to be turnkey like a Honda and you aren't willing to put a little extra time into the relationship, it may be you are not going to be happy with your Guzzi. I'm not trying to discourage you, it's just that they are hand built Italian bikes. They will have issues. Some have more issues than others. But the issues are generally fixable if you're willing. Good luck. I hope you work it out.

[cycdude6]

Please excuse all my whining! What a great forum...

However, I bought the bike to ride, not sit in the shop waiting for parts while the riding season winds down. Also, my bike seems to have more than it's fair share of teething problems and as others have said, it's the dealers fault as well for not being the least bit proactive in prepping a bike with known issues nor informing me at the time of purchase. I have contacted Piaggio USA customer service (customercare@piaggiogroupusa.com) and they have promised to expedite the parts issues. Then it will be up to Wagner. The longer they keep the bike, the closer I am to reaching the 15 days in the shop as specified by Mass. Lemon Law. I love the bike, want to keep it but I'm not thrilled with the Moto Guzzi philosophy "we're not happy until you're not happy!"

 

John

[Guest ratchethack]

Has anyone gone the Lemon Law route before?

Cycdude6, I've read all your posts and all the replies. Looks to me like you've had some good guidance and proper encouragement from the Forum. From all the reports I've seen here and elsewhere on the other Web boards, the Ballabio may well be expected to become one of the all-time modern-day Guzzi Classics, and will no doubt be regarded as a very solid and relatively trouble-free example of the marque for many many years to come. I congratulate you on your purchase.

 

I sympathize with you, my friend. It's got to be very frustrating having such a nice bike off the road when all you want to do is RIDE IT!!

 

Coupla observations:

 

I see by your info profile that you're a "self employed Handyman". Having owned 20 motorcycles in the past, a new Guzzi -- with the typical list (and even with an atypical list) -- of teething problems to be sorted would seem to be very much a natural fit for you, and quite easily dealt with. You no doubt have a great breadth of understanding (if not so much specific depth in the case of a Guzzi) of how all manner of things mechanical and electro-mechanical may be expected to perform, familiarity with parts sourcing, etc. -- especially including motorcycles, by your experience.

 

The way I see this, Cycdude, you've got a simple choice to make at this point. IMHO, it's one that you should have made in advance of purchase, but better late than never: You either decide that you'll make the requisite investment of your own effort in terms of time and apparent skill, if necessary, to sort the bike by the best means available to you -- whatever means that might be -- or you decide that the effort level is too high. If the effort level is too high for you, this means that you either bail out by selling at a loss, or you do wot you seem to be well inclined to do already, and pursue Lemon Law action against the dealer and Guzzi.

 

I can only contrast your situation with my own. I've only owned 12 bikes, and never had the benefit of experience of being a professional handyman or motorcycle mechanic (or any kind of a mechanic), but I've maintained all my bikes 100%, and restored and/or rebuilt many of them from the ground up. Now this is just me, but as an owner/rider, I'd take it upon myself to have your list of minor complaints whittled down to one or two items max in the time it takes you to make the round trip to your dealer. I'd use my own abilities, however limited or capable, and whatever means is at hand, including the superb guidance of this Forum, of which you've already had a great example by way of starters. Any remaining items would likewise be dispatched the same way, with the idea that as an owner, I take on the responsibility of getting it sorted MYSELF -- yes, if necessary, even ALL the stuff that's clearly the legal responsibility of the dealer.

 

The fact that you've listed something as minor as "parts fell off kickstand" as a complaint says volumes about your state of mind. I'm sorry to say this, but I'm afraid that especially as a professional handyman, this hardly reflects positively on the level of patience or willingness to take responsibility that owning a Guzzi (or any other bike for that matter) generally requires -- particularly when doing initial sorting, but also in terms of developing confidence in the relatively trouble-free maintenance that these bikes are well known for long-term.

 

I'd also make an effort to keep in mind that you haven't purchased another moto-appliance from a huge industrial giant, with a massive support network, local parts stock, and support expertise around every other corner, as you may well have become accustomed in your ownership of 20 previous moto's. Accordingly, I'd suggest a more realistic adjustment of expectations of the dealer. It was YOU who made the decision to purchase an already obsolete model of a very low-volume production, hand made Italian "throwback" anachronism, engineered primarily a half century ago, and assembled by villagers in what has become primarily a mountainside vacation area. Some of the Luigi's who assembled your bike no doubt have ancestors who were armorers, beating panels into breastplates and shields, forging blades and firearms, and still use some of the very same production techniques today on some of the parts that go into Guzzi's. Change has come relatively slowly to Guzzi over the last 50 years, and not without the pain and repeat loss of customer satisfaction due to the more or less perpetual state of disruption resulting from many downright flaky, here-today-and-gone-tomorrow ownership changes. Some of the ancient sourcing, supply, manufacturing, and assembly methods used today by this little company are still in the process of dying very slow, century-long deaths, and are directly derivative of the pre-industrial era in Europe.

 

Now if the "romance" of the final death throes of Old Europe is of little comfort to you now, I certainly understand, but the point is that you haven't bought another Honda. Knowing this, and being the one who pulled the trigger on your investment, IMHO you should well have gained enough understanding about what you were getting into (especially considering your background and experience), to enter into this with some level of expectation of the trade-off considerations and associated potential risks that you face today. I suggest that yours are but a paltry few of the most minor kinds of many more serious frustrations that are possible here.

 

Now I fully recognize that the emotion involved here may be "impossible" for some people to manage. But unless you can set the emotion aside and think logically, without succumbing to the anger you've expressed here at Guzzi, and get yourself off the trail of finding fault, and onto the trail of finding resolution to what are -- at least for the most part -- known to be relatively easily solved, minor problems, I'm afraid the the handwriting is already on the wall, and your decision is already a foregone conclusion. In this case, IMHO your situation cannot improve, and can only get worse. If so, you should pull the plug immediately, before your aggravation level becomes debilitating and you lose all desire to gain control over it. The sooner you can be rid of the aggravation the better -- regardless of financial loss.

 

Now this is just me, but while we're discussing investments of time and aggravation levels, I'd no more entertain the thought of perpetrating a jihad by subjecting myself to the horrific legal process of pursuing a state Lemon Law action against Guzzi over this (the mind reels. . .) than I'd entertain the thought of running my Ballabio over a cliff (with me riding it), but that's just me.

 

You could no doubt find someone via a classified ad who would more than gladly welcome an opportunity to pick up such a fine machine, who would happily welcome the task of getting it properly sorted, and who would also consider it a great privilege, given your list above in full disclosure at time of sale. Again, I'm no professional handyman or mechanic, but if I were presently Guzziless, I'd jump at the chance.

 

I do wish you well, regardless, my friend!

[Mr. Average]

Please excuse all my whining! What a great forum...

However, I bought the bike to ride, not sit in the shop waiting for parts while the riding season winds down. Also, my bike seems to have more than it's fair share of teething problems and as others have said, it's the dealers fault as well for not being the least bit proactive in prepping a bike with known issues nor informing me at the time of purchase. I have contacted Piaggio USA customer service (customercare@piaggiogroupusa.com) and they have promised to expedite the parts issues. Then it will be up to Wagner. The longer they keep the bike, the closer I am to reaching the 15 days in the shop as specified by Mass. Lemon Law. I love the bike, want to keep it but I'm not thrilled with the Moto Guzzi philosophy "we're not happy until you're not happy!"

 

John

 

In many states lemon laws do not apply to recreational vehicles. I think in most states motorcycles are classed as recreational vehicles, so you might want to make sure that the lemonn law will protect you in this case. I have had two new bikes strand me on the side of the road before. The first was an 03 Ducati ST4s that ended up having so many problems that I got ride if it after putting 20,000 miles on it. The most recent is an 07 BMW R1200R. It also stranded me with 300 miles on the clock, but after the repair has given me 7,500 miles of mostly trouble free service. Any new vehicle, especially motorcycles...don't ask me why, can have initial problems that need to be worked out. Ideally, a dealer should give a loaner while something like your situation is resolved. I hope yours can be sorted out and you will end up with a good bike. I will never buy another new Ducati, and probably never again a new BMW. I now look for low mileage, clean, one-owners. There are plenty of them out there, and often any initial issues have been resolved by the original owner. Your bike might end up being the type I look for.

[BRENTTODD]

think you should give your bike to a guzzi lover and go buy a harley there never broken then whine about cleaning it insted of riding it sob sob:( :!:

[waspp]

 

It's not always the dealer that's at fault. At times it has taken a long time for MG to ship out parts to them. If your dealer has a good relationship with others, he can buy the parts from another dealer that has them in stock. For examply, MPH in texas is one you might try. If you contact them and they have the parts needed in stock, you could then tell Wagner where to get them so you and they don't have to wait for the factory to respond.

 

If you get past these initial issues, I believe you will come to enjoy the bike as many of us have. You'll have plenty of fellow riders and dealer service techs that are members of this forum to help as well.

 

 

That is what makes a good dealer, going the extra mile to get your bike going not just passing the buck as a "Guzzi problem" After a friend was stranded on his brand new Griso with less than 200 miles on it he did some research and got the part from MPH himself because the dealer was unaware of the faulty fuel line issue. The dealer was going to wait for a replacement fuel pump assembly!

 

BTW my Harpers purchased speedo cable on my 03 has lasted 8000 miles! The factory replacement one before that lasted less than 500.

[Van]

It seems to me the dealer has a responsibility here for some of your issues. Machines should be properly set up and checked out before delivery. if faulty parts are to blame the dealer should be your advocate with the manufacturer, heck at the BMW shop where my son works they will pull parts of a new machine on the floor if its nescessary to get you going. The tank suck issue shouldn't be a drivability problem for an 04 as the pump is located inside the tank. Many of the things you point to are minor and believe it or not happen to all machines, many caught by good responsible dealers before delivery.

 

l gotta agree with you on this, alot of these things seem minor (yes l'm sure they are a piss off) and they should be delt with at dealer level. l'm a car dealer and l know that although things SHOULD be perfect from the factory and they mostly are, there are always a few things that slide through, and thats what a warranty is for, for the dealer to fix things and put them right so that they (the dealer) and the factory have a satisfied customer......

 

Then again there is the strange fact that what is one mans meat is anothers poison.......

l got my Tenni from a dealer here in Vancouver ( who l dont get service from, l go to a dealer twice as far but who gives me excepional service) That dealer got the bike from who got it back from a disgrunteled customer/dealer...........the first owner didn't like/was unsatisfied with the bike and l love the damn thing!!....for me it was the bike l always wanted, and it has done everything l have asked of it to date with out any problems (l kinda hate to say this as l don't want to jinx the bike) but there you have it !!

 

Good luck with getting it sorted !!!

 

Cheers

Van

[cycdude6]

Well said and very thoughtful! However I am very busy with my work, I want to ride when I have the chance, not wrench, and I don't care how many inebriated italian farmers it took to assemble, by hand god forbid, my beautiful Ballabio. I have the skills to maintain the bike on a regular basis and fix the occasional issue, but neither the time nor the inclination to fix the stuff the factory should have caught and if not them then the dealer. It is they who've dropped the ball, so to speak.

[robbiekb]

thats all thats wrong with it ? **grins**

 

At 0 miles mine wouldn't hold an idle, the rotors were warped, the right hand pipe was badly rashed as if the bike had fallen over, same with the levers

[cycdude6]

That's funny....it's obvious I'm not alone here. But where is the crown of thorns and the cross I shoulda got with my bike?!

[OldButNotDead]

Well said and very thoughtful! However I am very busy with my work, I want to ride when I have the chance, not wrench, and I don't care how many inebriated italian farmers it took to assemble, by hand god forbid, my beautiful Ballabio. I have the skills to maintain the bike on a regular basis and fix the occasional issue, but neither the time nor the inclination to fix the stuff the factory should have caught and if not them then the dealer. It is they who've dropped the ball, so to speak.

 

I'm sorry you found this forum AFTER buying the bike, rather than the other way around. Sounds like you didn't do enough research before buying, and/or the dealer didn't honestly reply to your informed questions about GUzzi QC. "Enough" reseach in this case probably isn't all that much; sorting out a bunch of annoying crap on new bikes is pretty standard. Pretty reliable once sorted, but given parts/dealer availabilty, still NOT an easy child. If you're not feeling infatuated by the Italianess (love + hate + all in-between), I'd advise bailing somehow. I hope you figure out a way to get the ride you want. Good luck.

[richard100t]

Hey I have to throw my in here. I bought my '01 Rosso Mandello with 300 miles on it & now the bike has about 23 thousand miles on it with very little problems from the factory at all. I think they had a wrong fuse in the fusebox & an ignition screw backed out but thats it. Not all of these bikes come from the factory with problems! This is a great place to find solutions to any mechanical problem you may have with your bike, but dont get the impression that all of the bikes from Mandello are halfass rattletraps.

If you just want to ride after work & not have to screw with the thing too much you should have bought a Honda or some other common motorcycle.