Breva/Griso frames

[Baldini]

Breva & Griso appear to have completely different frames, & fork sets.

 

Why? Surely it would've been cheaper to have developed one frame & just varied the styling? Was the Griso frame always designed for 8v motor?

 

Why wasn't 1200 Sport based on Griso which has much more sports/solid looking fork set up?

 

Which frame is the better? Which handles better? Griso is longer? Different geometry?

 

"Monza" appears to be based on Breva again. Is Breva lower market end, Griso upper end - quality/components appear better on Griso - 2 future ranges based on 4v & 8v?

 

Just wondering.

 

KB

[pete roper]

Yup, completely different frames, a couple of years ago there were some pics put up of them side by side, can't remember where exactly.

 

I think that a lot of it has to do with the market the bikes were aimed at The Breva is clearly aimed at the stodgy, conservative set. The Griso isn't. Breva and Norge along with the 1200 Sport which is really just a tarted up Breva get the cheap suspension. Neither bike has radical steering gemetry but the Griso's wide bars mean that it's very easy to muscle around and get to corner quickly but has straight line stability that many 'sports' bikes would envy. note that the big 'G' doesn't have a steering damper. Why? Because it doesn't need one! It's a superb 'road' bike. I'm hoping the 8V motor will simply make a good thing better!

 

Pete

[Baldini]

So = 2 ranges, one (4v?) cheaper, more conservative, lower end equipment, the other (8v?) higher end, more £££$$$, better equipment?

 

Is there any technical reason why the frame side rails on the Griso run so high (anything to do w 8v design?) - or just styling? Would've thought shorter (lower), straighter route s/a to headstock would have been better (looks & performance) - style over function? - Something I think Guzzi have fallen into. How many bent/longer-than-necessary-to-work-well tubes on a Tonti frame?- & there ain't many frames more beautiful than a Tonti...IMO. If it works good it looks good.

 

KB

[pete roper]

Remember there is an alternator sitting in the valley with the new motors. All the space behind the alternator on the Griso is taken up with fuel tank, and even then it only takes some weedy amount, (17 Litres??). As far as rigidity goes if I hit a BIG dip, canted over, mid-corner I can feel something flex. I haven't worked out what exactly it is yet but my strongest suspicion is it is to do with the side-plates or their mounting to the frame, it certainly doesn't feel like head-flex which is what tends to give the 'Willowy' feeling to V11's, (Well, that's what I think.).

 

I also have my suspension set up softer than many would and play constantly with the damping both front and rear to compensate for changes in ambient temperature and the like, I'm very anal about suspension But this may also contribute to that *flexible* feeling when I do hit something really big. Having said that there is nothing that I'd call 'Misbehavior'. Yes of course I could provoke it by setting it up all wrong but the Showa forks and to a lesser degree the Boge shock are very good and perform admirably. I know it will probably provoke howls of outrage but IMHO a well set up set of Showas are every bit as good as Ohlins. They tend to get saggy springs after a couple of years but springs are cheap. a long as the valving is right they are a lovely fork and less leak prone than Ohlins too!

 

If you geta chance Keith take one out thats been set up for somone roughly your weight and see what you think. As mine came out of the crate the springs were running far too much preload and both compression and rebound damping front and rear. It was like riding an ill sprung brick! Now I've got it pretty much where I want it it's lovely!!!

 

Pete

[Paul Minnaert]

well the first griso proto had the daytona engine, these heads need space. But the breva frame is used in most bikes. And gets the 8v engine too. So that fits in.

 

Griso gas tank size is smaller with 8v engine. And did you see the weight for the old griso is 227 kg nad the 8v 222 kg? How do the weigh? The clutch is filled with helium?

[Baldini]

Remember there is an alternator sitting in the valley with the new motors. .....

 

head-flex which is what tends to give the 'Willowy' feeling to V11's, (Well, that's what I think.).....

 

 

re the alternator - Breva has same, but much lower frame rails The 8v heads surely wouldn't mean the rails had to be quite so high either? esp if as Paul says 8v will fit in Breva....

 

I'm no engineer but looks to me the V11 has too little lateral bracing along the length of the spine & from spine to s/a mounts (with half-baked bracing around sideplates on later V11's someone must have spotted the problem - but that doesn't address the front end). Spine originally had a brace above tranny. Did it also have larger diam cross tube at back or any other bracing? How does 1100 Sport handle relative to v11 ? - I never rode one. I nearly went for a Daytona RS recently but that's stuck w/same crude rear s/a/suspension design - & I feel a Tonti, while still crude, has more structural integrity.

 

So any spine frame is out w/ new motors. I'd like a new sports 8v in a modified (bit more legroom please) Tonti style frame but with a good rear suspension design. Something like the recent retro Dukes but designed functional not fashionable - no Tonka Toy styling. Delivered by Monday. Thank you.

 

KB

[mike wilson]

 

So any spine frame is out w/ new motors.

 

 

Don't be too sure of that. The Quasimodo look is very fashionable amongst bike designers at the moment.

 

I, too, could be tempted by a modern Tonti. Spada vintage, anyone?

[Paul Minnaert]

All spine frames( daytonav11) are the same, with small dimension mods, like steeringhead angle, and from the le mans a longer part behind the steering head.

[Baldini]

All spine frames( daytonav11) are the same, with small dimension mods, like steeringhead angle, and from the le mans a longer part behind the steering head.

 

The older spines had a plate bracing frame at top of gbox I think - not sure when that was dropped? Were original (Dr John prototype) side plates stronger than later? did that racebike have any other bracing?

 

Paul, the impressive work you did on your bike addresses some of the issues I'm on about. You extended the s/a I think? You have a gbox brace as I mention above also I think.

 

KB

[rocker59]

Here's a big difference:

 

 

Breva 1100 = wheelbase 58.6-inches

 

Griso 100 = wheelbase 61.2-inches

[Paul Minnaert]

The older spines had a plate bracing frame at top of gbox I think - not sure when that was dropped? Were original (Dr John prototype) side plates stronger than later? did that racebike have any other bracing?

 

Paul, the impressive work you did on your bike addresses some of the issues I'm on about. You extended the s/a I think? You have a gbox brace as I mention above also I think.

 

KB

 

The spines up to somewhere in the v11 sport series had the brace. So does mine. What happened from the v11lemans up, is the bracing at the gearbox rear, with the two bars reaching to the engine, and cross bracing behind gearbox. I did add the crossbracing behind the gearbox when I was busy there. The alu frame plates are not so weak.

 

It can be that other bikes are more stiff, I don't care, for me it's ok like it is now. Extending the swingarm made a big difference in how rear suspension works. With help of the dynotec adjusted Ohlins there.

[Tom M]

The frame spec for the new Griso on the Guzzi site says it's made from "high tensile steel". This was always a code word for low quality mild steel in the dirt bike and bicycle worlds. Higher spec frames were made from "cromoly steel". I wonder if Guzzi is cheaping out on the frame material to save a few bucks? I also wonder if the spine frames are mild steel too?

[Paul Minnaert]

All spine were sold as chrome moly steel. Since they have less frame, it should be better quality steel.

Modern steel might be better than the old days, so no wories about griso/ breva steel. The mgs01 is a spine too, with even less frame, some people are able to get very fast with that. If Guaro can live with it, it's good enough for me.

[rocker59]

The frame spec for the new Griso on the Guzzi site says it's made from "high tensile steel". This was always a code word for low quality mild steel in the dirt bike and bicycle worlds. Higher spec frames were made from "cromoly steel". I wonder if Guzzi is cheaping out on the frame material to save a few bucks? I also wonder if the spine frames are mild steel too?

 

 

 

Ducati is noted for using Chrome Moly.

 

 

Most bikes that have steel frames have mild-steel tubing for frames.

[belfastguzzi]

I'd like a new sports 8v in a modified (bit more legroom please) Tonti style frame but with a good rear suspension design. Something like the recent retro Dukes but designed functional not fashionable - no Tonka Toy styling. Delivered by Monday. Thank you.

 

KB

A bit fashionable, but could you fancy a Street Triple?