A greener V11 Sport (Mk III)

[Admin Jaap]

Originally posted by Greg Field

We have a customer at Moto Intl. who's a pretty far out there liberal activist, but who isn't just all talk. He has spent considerable money with our shop and other suppliers to convert his V11 Sport to run really well on 85-percent ethanol. The only stumbling is between 3000 and 4000 rpm. Everythwer else, it runs as strong as a gas-powered V11.

 

Here it is:

 

 

 

After all that, I think he's earned the right to a little biting social commentary:

 

 

FWIW: any posting with political remarks will be deleted w/o warning.

[Garsdad]

I believe my thoughts on ethanol production from corn are well documented. I am, however, interested in the technical changes needed to make this work. I plan on having my Guzzi for a long time, and it is not out of the realm of possibilities that we may all, at some point, be faced with converting to a fuel with more alcohol than gas, if for no other reason than it may become cost prohibitive not to. Anyone able to find leaded gas these days? You see my point. In ten years, we may have to pay so much for "pure" gasoline that converting to E85 may be the only way to go, no matter where the "85" component of the fuel is derived, or from what raw material.

 

So, Greg, if the customer does not mind, can we get a list of what was done? Is the driveability issue at 3-4000 rpm just an amplified version of what we all deal with now? Has he had any issues with fuel lines, etc. and if so what did he change them to? Did he use different injectors that flow at a different rate?

 

And, given that E85 carries less energy than an equivalent volume of gasoline (thus the drop in mileage when running E85) has he dyno'd this bike to see how big a drop in power output he suffered, or what his mileage is?

 

Garsdad

[raz]

So, Greg, if the customer does not mind, can we get a list of what was done? Is the driveability issue at 3-4000 rpm just an amplified version of what we all deal with now? Has he had any issues with fuel lines, etc. and if so what did he change them to? Did he use different injectors that flow at a different rate?

 

And, given that E85 carries less energy than an equivalent volume of gasoline (thus the drop in mileage when running E85) has he dyno'd this bike to see how big a drop in power output he suffered, or what his mileage is?

I'll take some guesses. I am in no way an expert but I've read some about E85 conversions and I do drive a Volvo S40 Flexifuel.

 

This is facts:

• My Flexifuel car makes 700 kms on a tank of gasoline (actually with 5% ethanol in it) or 400 kms on E85 only. That latter figure really sucks! That's why I almost always put gasoline in it.
  
• Except for that useless mileage, I can't tell the difference in driving, power, acceleration, torque or whatever. If I have to choose, I'd say it runs a tad better on ethanol.
  
• Starting in subzero centigrades is a little tricky. This will not be a big issue for a motorcycle.
  

This is more like guesses:

• Just pouring E85 in a V11 and do a full ECU remap just might make a very good starting point, possibly with much more power output, not less. I've read 30% figures in several places.
  
• Anyone trying this should start with changing fuel filter, since the ethanol will dissolve stuff that has built up in it.
  
• The mileage will be terrible. This explains how we get more power with less energy fuel. I usually fill my bike after 200 kms. On ethanol it would probably be 120 kms. That is way below my demands.
  
• Temperature will be much better, since you use a much lower A/F ratio. This may allow you to tweak other parameters (like ignition timing I guess) where temperatures are limiting.
  
• I don't think seals and gaskets will be that much of an issue. I have no idea about the plastic tank though. My '97 steam train has a metal tank!
  
• If you don't like the idea of crashing your bike with gasoline in it, don't even think about doing it with ethanol. It will catch fire if you sneeze.
  
• Regarding injectors and flow, I've read about just using higher fuel pressure (i.e. changing or modifying the pressure regulator). That was about cars, I don't know if this would be mandatory on a V11.
  

Bottom line is the milege will be too bad for anything but track (or drag strip) use. Anyway I will probably try it sooner or later, using MyECU in closed loop. But that will not be a permanent conversion, just a cool experiment with closed loop FI.

[pete roper]

I think it's a very interesting project. Regardless of the why's and wherefores of the fuel in question chances are that we WILL be getting more and more fuel with some bio-alchohol in it in various proporions so it makes sense to start experimenting NOW if we want to keep our older vehicles on the road.

 

One of the good things about petrol is that it stores a comparatively large amount of energy in a very small space. The problem with booze is that it stores less energy per unit of volume which means as Raz sez didtance between fill ups will be limited on machines designed to run on petrol with 'petrol' sized tanks.

 

To my mind the biggest tragedy is that so much oil is wasted by being turned into plastic bags and other such worthless crap. It makes a very good fuel and if used sensibly could last a very long time, especially if we could vastly improve the thermal efficiency of our engines, (I'm not sure of *absolute* figures but my guess is that even something like an F1 car engine, the supposed acme of engine development, is only about 35% thermally efficient!) What is MAD in vehicle terms is miles and miles of 5 litre SUV's stuck nose to tail on freeways with one idiot in each vehicle! What *is* that all about??? We only get one life. Who'd want to spend a goodly part of it sitting in a traffic jam surrounded by pollutants and carcinogens! Bonkers!

 

Pete

[jrt]

You're spot on Pete. Engines are very poor efficiency. However, I should qualify that by saying that humans, and most warm-blooded animals- aren't much better. We run about 30-35% if I recall. Bacteria run about 24% on non-optimized biomass. However, if you want a lot of energy in a small volume, go for hydrazine. It's a clean burn too, as the byproducts are water and nitrogen.

I'm interested in projects like this as technical aspirations. I hope to read more about them.

[Skeeve]

However, if you want a lot of energy in a small volume, go for hydrazine. It's a clean burn too, as the byproducts are water and nitrogen.

 

It's only highly corrosive & toxic as all get out, but yeah, hydrazine has a lot going for it as a fuel... that's why even the govt. has pretty much given up on it, 'cause the handling issues were all so miniscule. No challenge to it!

 

FWIW, there's a guy out there making light, sweet crude out of chicken heads & kitchen waste. Con Agra & Marriott are joint partners in a pilot plant that's so far supposed to be pulling its own [largely because of the reduced fines from pollution from all the turkey guts Con Agra would otherwise have to find some other mean$ of dealing with... or so I gathered from the article I read on it.]

 

We may not be out of oil yet, altho' it's not an entropy-killer: it still takes a lot of heat & pressure to make the conversion, the conversion isn't anywhere near 100% of the reactants, and the process has still quite a bit of "suck it & see" to it.

 

But between higher efficiency engines [compound turbo diesel hybrid motorcycles, anyone?] and more effective waste processing, we might make it to a future of solar-powered road cities yet [which will obsolete motor vehicles entirely, so all us enthusiasts will have the roads virtually to ourselves, since you'll be able to travel coast to coast on moving sidewalks!]

 

[Admin Jaap]

I deleted a few political comments. In 24/7 V11 you can write all you want on the subject

[Greg Field]

I'll contact the guy and ask more questions, or maybe even ask him to join in here, so you can ask your own. One other thing I remember from our conversation was that his mileage dropped from 40 mpg to 30 mpg on ethanol. He's not a very confrontational sort of guy, so if he comes, stick to technical stuff.

[JoeV11]

I'll contact the guy and ask more questions, or maybe even ask him to join in here, so you can ask your own. One other thing I remember from our conversation was that his mileage dropped from 40 mpg to 30 mpg on ethanol. He's not a very confrontational sort of guy, so if he comes, stick to technical stuff.

Well 40-30mpg isn;t as bad a drop as raz's volvo. I suppose the high performance mods increased the motor's efficiency, probably through higher compression, that a flex fuel car can't do. Cool beans! Joe

[EnduroGuzzi]

I've driven some flex fuel fleet vehicles on E85 and my initial impression was disgust. Hard start up cold or hot, flooding the cabin with alcohol fumes and some crazy surging when just driving around under ordinary load. Fortunatly I discovered that the problem with these vehicles lies with the manufacturer, not the fuel.

 

Lately some subaru turbo tuners (and I'm sure many others) have been playing around tuning on E85 and getting crazy torque outputs, looking more in line with big turbo diesel torque profiles.

 

With this Guzzi, you could probably run 12.5:1 (or higher????) compression on the street with cams and some uncommon (full race) timing changes. Some of this is just a quick revision away for all the common software tuning modules. I've seen 106 Octane thrown around as the listing for rating E85. With the tuning tools available, this is like taking one of the three wishes granted to you by the Genie "and I want to drive around on race fuel forever after"

 

You pick the other two choices

 

A new venue of research into hotrod tuning, what's not to like!?!?