Stupid newbie question (FAQs read, search done :) )

[tmcafe]

Hi everybody,

 

I've had my V11 for only a few days now. I've already looked into what needs to be done for the 600 miles service. I read the tech FAQs and did a search on oil, filters, and the like. I already got some info, but I'm still not clear about some things. Sorry if they're silly questions, but here it goes:

 

1. There's actually no mention of the 600 mi service, as is the case with many/most bikes. Instead, the owner's manual says 500 ÷ 1000km (that division sign adds to the confusion ). Why aren't they more specific?

 

2. Now that I'm almost at 700 miles I'm thinking at least oil and filter. What else? Transmission, shaft drive oil?

 

3. I guess I need a wrench for the filter, can I order it from the dealer, or is there any substitute?

 

4. I know that there have been problems with the filter/sump. I've read about some fixes. How do I get the parts? (I guess Greg knows and may be able to order them).

 

5. Yes, and dumbest of all: what oil? I understand that 5W-40 is only synthetic, but there's this thing about no synthetic during break-in. Also, I found a Rotella T SAE 5W-40 (Shell), marked on the API seal as CI-4/SL (heavy duty). Can it be fed to the V11?

 

 

TIA!!

[Ryland3210]

Hi everybody,

 

I've had my V11 for only a few days now. I've already looked into what needs to be done for the 600 miles service. I read the tech FAQs and did a search on oil, filters, and the like. I already got some info, but I'm still not clear about some things. Sorry if they're silly questions, but here it goes:

 

1. There's actually no mention of the 600 mi service, as is the case with many/most bikes. Instead, the owner's manual says 500 ÷ 1000km (that division sign adds to the confusion ). Why aren't they more specific?

 

2. Now that I'm almost at 700 miles I'm thinking at least oil and filter. What else? Transmission, shaft drive oil?

 

3. I guess I need a wrench for the filter, can I order it from the dealer, or is there any substitute?

 

4. I know that there have been problems with the filter/sump. I've read about some fixes. How do I get the parts? (I guess Greg knows and may be able to order them).

 

5. Yes, and dumbest of all: what oil? I understand that 5W-40 is only synthetic, but there's this thing about no synthetic during break-in. Also, I found a Rotella T SAE 5W-40 (Shell), marked on the API seal as CI-4/SL (heavy duty). Can it be fed to the V11?

TIA!!

 

I only wish to comment on the following where I'm confident in the advice given. You will get plenty of help from experts on the others.

 

3. I found a useful tool for removing the oil filter access cover with a 1-1/16 socket at Home Depot in the plumbing section at $2.59 U.S.

 

It the Watts 5/8" Short Forged Flare Nut.

 

I used a piece of masking tape inside the socket to prevent the nut from falling all the way in. The tape is put in like a saddle to set the amount the nut protrudes to just what it needed to engage the filter access cover. Because of the limited engagement in the cover (any any other job where this is an issue), I used a 2 foot length of plastic plumbing pipe as a ratchet arm extension to reduce the tendency to twist out of the cover.

 

The UFI filter has 16 flats at 74mm across flats. A 14 flat socket wrench can be obtained at Advance Auto and similar stores. I found I can get that on the UFI with gentle persuasion. I personally use the Purolator equivalent, L10241, which has 14 flats and 74 mm across. See also the oil filter tightening thread in the FAQ section.

 

4. Pete Roper makes any sloppage plates for the sump to help prevent pump starvation under hard acceleration. I recently purchased one from MPH Cycle. Some dipsticks have been found to have full marks which are 0.69 inches low when fully screwed in. Refilling with 4 US quarts (3.85 liters) is a tad above the manual's 3.5 liter capacity, and safely 0.23 inches below the sump gasket. Under hard acceleration in first gear, my '04 Cafe Sport starves the pump, so I will avoid that until I put in the Roper Plate.

 

5. There are almost as many opinions on the best oil as there are members of this forum. I use Shell Rotella 15W40 based on expert oil industry recommendations. Valvoline and Havoline are my alternatives if the Rotella is not available.

 

 

Here are some early failures to look for if the dealer has not already taken care of them:

 

Low fuel sensor,

Speedo cable upgrade to replace obsolete original

Seat transfers weight of rider to battery, causing possible leakage. ( I have a fix for this if you need it.)

Stale battery with low reserve capacity.

Relays. Siemens brand reported to have reliability issues. Superceded by Tyco.

[tmcafe]

Ryland,

 

Thanks a lot for the tips! I'll follow up with them.

 

I know that the UFI is the OEM filter. What's the difference between the original and the Purolator, other than the latter doesn't need the special filter tool?

 

I'll sure get the Roper plate, and I saw that Greg posted a "how to".

 

As far as the dipstick, perhaps I'll get a thermometer one. At least I'll keep an eye on the accuracy of the original one after I do the oil.

 

Guess I'll go with the Rotella, which you're using too. Do Valvoline and Havoline make a 5W-40 as well? (I only found the Rotella under that grade, but it may just be the store).

 

Hope the low fuel sensor won't go out on me. So I'll have to check the trip mileage (after I have the speedo cable replaced under warranty ).

 

I haven't noticed anything about the seat and the battery, but I'll look into it and let you know (maybe the fix is to lose some pounds ? ). Also the battery may have actually sat for a while. I'll give it a charge just in case.

 

Siemens relay--are you talking about the starter relay? I'll double check so that I know what to expect.

 

Thanks again.

 

If this is what needs for the bike to be sorted out, than it's super. But then I remember one of the Guzziology commendments, about what's cheaper and easier is never the best....

 

Any more tips will be appreciated

[Guest Phil_P]

Ref; Siemens relays. You will have a bank of small relays somewhere on the bike (sorry, I don't know where, as I don't have this bike). They control various things, ie Fuel pump, ECU, Lighting, Starter etc. If they are marked 'Siemens 23073' then replace them before they fail, as they almost certainly will at the most inconvenient time.

 

As long as you don't mind Chinese imports, then this guy can help you out and has a well respected reputation.

 

http://www.dpguzzi.com/relay.htm

[Ryland3210]

Ryland,

 

Thanks a lot for the tips! I'll follow up with them.

 

I know that the UFI is the OEM filter. What's the difference between the original and the Purolator, other than the latter doesn't need the special filter tool?

 

I'll sure get the Roper plate, and I saw that Greg posted a "how to".

 

As far as the dipstick, perhaps I'll get a thermometer one. At least I'll keep an eye on the accuracy of the original one after I do the oil.

 

Guess I'll go with the Rotella, which you're using too. Do Valvoline and Havoline make a 5W-40 as well? (I only found the Rotella under that grade, but it may just be the store).

 

Hope the low fuel sensor won't go out on me. So I'll have to check the trip mileage (after I have the speedo cable replaced under warranty ).

 

I haven't noticed anything about the seat and the battery, but I'll look into it and let you know (maybe the fix is to lose some pounds ? ). Also the battery may have actually sat for a while. I'll give it a charge just in case.

 

Siemens relay--are you talking about the starter relay? I'll double check so that I know what to expect.

 

Thanks again.

 

If this is what needs for the bike to be sorted out, than it's super. But then I remember one of the Guzziology commendments, about what's cheaper and easier is never the best....

 

Any more tips will be appreciated

 

Aside from the Purolator filter costing about 1/4 of the UFI, the important difference is that the O-Ring groove design is consistent with known good industry practice and has less chance of coming unscrewed than the UFI. Considerable research was done on analyzing the causes of the UFI's coming loose and causing bottom end damage. The O-Ring design and unconventional tightening instructions on the UFI are both contributing factors.

 

Shell Rotella T is definitely available in 15W40. I recently purchased a couple of gallons. I'm not sure about the range of Valvoline or Havoline grades. They are available in 10W40 and 20W50, but I don't recall 5W40 in conventional (non-synthetic) oil. Personally use 20W50 Valvoline if I run out of the Rotella. Some members feel that the 50 is too viscous. That is not my personal opinion for this application. It's even one of the options in my VW Jetta's water cooled engine. I also believe 5Wanything is too low for a conventional oil.

 

I only weigh 143, and did the battery in. I think not all models have this issue, but you and I have the same model and year. I strongly recommend modifying the seat and battery holder if it touches the battery. There is no way that is an acceptable condition. The battery housing is only plastic. What brand of battery is it? If it is a conventional sealed lead-acid type, maximum charge current is 1/10 its amp-hour rating, probably around 1.4 amps. You can check it's state of charge after it's been sitting for a couple hours with the engine off, of course, by measuring its voltage. Depending on the brand, the range from 0 to 100% charge at 70 degrees is approximately 11.6 to 12.6 volts. For example, if it is rated at 14 amp-hours, and the voltage is 12.2, it is 60% charged. The remaining 40% times 14 is 5.6 amp hours. Therefore, with a 1 amp charger, it should be charged for 5.6 hours. To find out if it is fully charged, you have to let the battery sit for a couple hours before measuring. If you're in a hurry to find out, turn on the headlights (do not start the engine) for 2 minutes, shut them off, wait 5 minutes, and then check the voltage. If I need to recharge a battery, I usually let it sit overnight after charging and check it in the morning. Here is a link to a thread on the subject, with loads of information. There are some false ideas in the middle, so my suggestion is to read through to the end, or start from the end and work backwards. Let me know if you would like pictures of the mod's I did by sending me a personal message.

 

The bank of relays are clearly visible if you take the seat off. The Tyco brand are marked with the same 23073 part number. Personally, I'm less confident in Chinese imports. I haven't found any sources made in the U.S. If you prefer a Japanese import, I am in the process of evaluating Omron plug in substitutes which also have higher contact ratings. I expect to have a sample to try this coming week. They will cost around $8 each. My plan is to replace all the OEM relays with these and keep the Tyco's as spares.

 

If your speedo cable fails, make sure the dealer replaces it with the upgraded version. Guzzi issued a service note on this, so he should have no problem getting the right one. However, I'm still waiting for mine after several weeks. I purchased a Sigma bicycle speedometer in the mean time, and I love it. It's going to stay, even when I get the OEM cable replaced. It has a clock, it's accurate (my OEM speedometer was high by 8%), trip odo, total odo, average speed, maximum speed, trip time, etc. Battery powered so there is no need to wire it into the bike's electrical system, and takes only about an hour to install. I'm told its maximum speed is 300 (kph or mph, don't know, doesn't matter). I have gone as fast as 89 MPH, and can verify it works at least that fast.

[BRENTTODD]

You can also use napa #1348 oil filter also read the thread about using a hose clamp to keep your filter from backing off

[tmcafe]

Shell Rotella T is definitely available in 15W40. I recently purchased a couple of gallons. I'm not sure about the range of Valvoline or Havoline grades. They are available in 10W40 and 20W50, but I don't recall 5W40 in conventional (non-synthetic) oil. Personally use 20W50 Valvoline if I run out of the Rotella. Some members feel that the 50 is too viscous. That is not my personal opinion for this application. It's even one of the options in my VW Jetta's water cooled engine. I also believe 5Wanything is too low for a conventional oil.

Thanks again to Ryland, as well as Brenttodd & Phil.

 

The Rotella I found was a 5W-40 (not 15), and I don't know if it was synthetic or dyno. It was sold by the gallon.

 

I'll search for the Purolator filter since it's much better that the OEM. About the NAPA filter: does it need some special wrench to tighten it (probably not)?

 

As far as the seat-battery wrestling match: I looked at the battery when I got the bike and it seemed to be fine. It actually sits on its side, not upright as usual. There were no cracks/leaks, and I never felt that the seat was in conflict with it. But since Ryland has exactly the same model, and I weigh about 180, I'll have to look into it seriously.

 

I'll get a meter and check the battery charge. Also I know that some owners installed voltmeters, which is probably a good idea since there's a history of lower charges and the alternator is fairly small. Has anybody installed an accessory socket, or do they wire the electrics directly to the battery? As I ride in any temperatures as long as there's no ice/snow on the road, I hope to be able to plug in at least electric gloves (will get them soon) or vest (I have a Widder which draws much less than the Gerbing AFAIK).

 

About the relays: is there a history of all of them failing, or is it just the Siemens? I'd rather go with the Japanese substitute, if not, the Chinese sub should do. I gave up long time on not buying Chinese, since it's hardly possible to find anything that's not made there

[O2 V11]

tm, welcome to the fold. Oil choice and filter choice is up to the individual owner, use whatever combination you feel comfortable with, as I believe as long as they are of a decent quality there is no right or wrong oil/filter combo you can use. I am more than happy to use Castrol Activ 4T and a Group 7 V241 filter. From my experience I would recommend re-torquing your heads, applying grease to your rear shock mounts and driveshaft. Generally give the bike a good going over as in the past quality control was some what lacking, lets hope it is a lot better now. Take your sump off to remove the filter, you may find some crud in there and the factory fits their oil filters really tight. Change all your oils, it is amazing what you will find in there. The most significant thing I noticed after my first service was the huge drop in the bevel drive temperature following the change to a synthetic oil. As far as your relays go, I have never considered this as issue at all.

 

Rob

[Ryland3210]

My experience is different from O2 V11's on the filter. When I went to remove my factory installed oil filter for the first time, it came off far too easily. Greg Field is the originator of the hose clamp on the filter preventive measure. If you feel that is necessary, consider the possibility of damaging the sump gasket, and have one at the ready, just in case. The final drive oil spec'd by Guzzi includes a molybdenum disulphide additive. The oil will come out opaque gray. That does not necessarily mean that metal particles are being ground up to slug. I had a heck of a time finding the additive, as I was a newcomer to this forum. I finally found a way to get some. I probably have a lifetime supply, so if you're desparate, let me know and I'll ship you enough gratis. If you go to synthetic oil, I'm not sure whether the Moly additive applies, or perhaps interferes. I didn't do any research on that, since I use conventional oil in mine.

 

Check your owner's manual for the first service. Mine says to check and adjust the valves and torque the head bolts. In my case, some of the screws were at about 15 foot pounds. There was a general discussion on this, which arrived at about 21.5 foot pounds. However, the Guzziology says 30 - 35.

 

You have to remove the rocker arms to get to the screws under them. The clearances are tight, so be spotlessly clean when putting them back on. The head bolts should be torqued first, then adjust the valve clearance. It's pretty tricky getting the washers and springs all concentric in order to re insert the rocker shafts. Give yourself an hour or two this first time, and be prepared with a lot of patience. Adjusting the valves later on without having to torque the head bolts will be a breeze.

 

I have the Widder gloves and vest. The two prong connector is wired through an in-line fuse directly to the battery. I have it coming out between the seat and the tank, between my legs. I find it a convenient way to check battery voltage and charge if necessary. The output of the alternator should be sufficient to run both vest and gloves and everything else as well, according to the alternator's rating and all the loads on the bike.

 

My understanding is that the Siemens relays were unreliable for a number of riders. The Omron sample I ordered is expected tomorrow. My bike came with the Tyco relays made in Portugal, so they might be fine, for all I know. They do have arc suppression resistors on the coil. I have about 5000 miles on my bike over the past 18 months without a failure. Perhaps the Siemens versions did not. This could account for some bikes having no problem, and some having early failures. Another recent purchaser of an '04 has already had a problem, but he hasn't said what brand they are. I'm going ahead with the substitute of the Omron's if they fit, and keeping a couple of the Tyco's handy as spares. It's in the category of what I call "cheap insurance".

 

Another comment on the seat/battery interference: I didn't notice it when putting the seat on. The sheet metal tongue on the front of the seat is flexible enough that I didn't think anything of its resistance as I reinstalled the seat. I recall it was a little difficult to force the back of the seat down into the latch, but I put that off to a normal condition. Later, I realized the plastic base of the seat is also flexible, and since I was standing on the side of the bike, I believe the base was simply deforming as I forced the back of the seat down until it latched.

 

I hear what you're saying about buying Chinese. Sad, but true. Fortunately, the Japanese, if not Americans, are still automated and efficient enough to export electronic and electromechanical components.

[tmcafe]

My experience is different from O2 V11's on the filter. When I went to remove my factory installed oil filter for the first time, it came off far too easily. Greg Field is the originator of the hose clamp on the filter preventive measure. If you feel that is necessary, consider the possibility of damaging the sump gasket, and have one at the ready, just in case. The final drive oil spec'd by Guzzi includes a molybdenum disulphide additive. The oil will come out opaque gray. That does not necessarily mean that metal particles are being ground up to slug. I had a heck of a time finding the additive, as I was a newcomer to this forum. I finally found a way to get some. I probably have a lifetime supply, so if you're desparate, let me know and I'll ship you enough gratis. If you go to synthetic oil, I'm not sure whether the Moly additive applies, or perhaps interferes. I didn't do any research on that, since I use conventional oil in mine.

 

Check your owner's manual for the first service. Mine says to check and adjust the valves and torque the head bolts. In my case, some of the screws were at about 15 foot pounds. There was a general discussion on this, which arrived at about 21.5 foot pounds. However, the Guzziology says 30 - 35.

 

You have to remove the rocker arms to get to the screws under them. The clearances are tight, so be spotlessly clean when putting them back on. The head bolts should be torqued first, then adjust the valve clearance. It's pretty tricky getting the washers and springs all concentric in order to re insert the rocker shafts. Give yourself an hour or two this first time, and be prepared with a lot of patience. Adjusting the valves later on without having to torque the head bolts will be a breeze.

 

I have the Widder gloves and vest. The two prong connector is wired through an in-line fuse directly to the battery. I have it coming out between the seat and the tank, between my legs. I find it a convenient way to check battery voltage and charge if necessary. The output of the alternator should be sufficient to run both vest and gloves and everything else as well, according to the alternator's rating and all the loads on the bike.

 

My understanding is that the Siemens relays were unreliable for a number of riders. The Omron sample I ordered is expected tomorrow. My bike came with the Tyco relays made in Portugal, so they might be fine, for all I know. They do have arc suppression resistors on the coil. I have about 5000 miles on my bike over the past 18 months without a failure. Perhaps the Siemens versions did not. This could account for some bikes having no problem, and some having early failures. Another recent purchaser of an '04 has already had a problem, but he hasn't said what brand they are. I'm going ahead with the substitute of the Omron's if they fit, and keeping a couple of the Tyco's handy as spares. It's in the category of what I call "cheap insurance".

 

Another comment on the seat/battery interference: I didn't notice it when putting the seat on. The sheet metal tongue on the front of the seat is flexible enough that I didn't think anything of its resistance as I reinstalled the seat. I recall it was a little difficult to force the back of the seat down into the latch, but I put that off to a normal condition. Later, I realized the plastic base of the seat is also flexible, and since I was standing on the side of the bike, I believe the base was simply deforming as I forced the back of the seat down until it latched.

 

I hear what you're saying about buying Chinese. Sad, but true. Fortunately, the Japanese, if not Americans, are still automated and efficient enough to export electronic and electromechanical components.

 

Thanks to O2 V11 and Ryland. Actually I've read about both issues with the filter: either too tight--factory installed, or too loose and possibly easy to unscrew itself from the mount. I could see how both things can happen. 600-1000 miles may not be enough to cause the filter to loosen, on the other hand the filter may have been mounted according to specs, so it may be already loose.

 

For now, after I read some excerpts about oil that Dave sent me from Guzziology, and checking again with Moto Int'l, I understand that the most important thing is the oil, not the filter. The one I found at Madame de Walmart (pronounced with a "V' and stressed on the last syllable ) is a Rotella T 5W-40 fully synthetic. Apparently that's what Moto Int'l are using and it should be okay. The filter I picked is also okay, as I was told by MI. Also since I understand that Ryland's Purolator option requires special order, I picked the filter wrench that fits the de Walmart filter and the ST3614 filter (both made in the good ol' USA !). I'll use whatever it takes to loosen the OEM filter that should have come with the bike, since I'll remove the sump anyway and clean the mesh screen.

 

I still haven't looked specifically for the gear box and final drive oils, which I'd like to change as per owner's manual break-in recommendations. Hope I'll find something suitable; in any case many thanks to Ryland for the offer.

 

As far as tightening the bolts, unless the factory has changed their specs, I'd rather go with the higher forum value, or what Guzziology says, since that is info gathered in shop practice and updated on a regular basis for quite a while. Just as an example, there was at least one serious mistake in the OEM shop manual for F650GS, in which case a particular torque value was high enough to cause breakage (the owner's manual, at least the earlier version, did indicate the correct torque). So I wouldn't be surprised if Guzzi have done their own misprints. I guess although Dave said that with the Cafe Sport and newer models I wouldn't need Guzziology, I may still get it after all.

 

Widder gear draws less power than Gerbing, and I don't know about the gloves but that may be the case too vs. Gerbing gloves, which I was thinking of getting. The reason for Gerbings is that they are leather and less bulky, and they seem to fit better. From what I heard, the Widder gloves get soaked very easily and are bulkier. On the other hand (pun not intended), the latter may draw less power and so allow for gloves AND vest, which is just about what it takes for hours long rides in very low temps. I don't know how they'd do with, say, the Aerostich rain overgloves, if needed, but Gerbings may not do any better under those overgloves.

 

I like the simple solution with the two-prong connctor (probably less bulky than a BMW socket). Both my charger and the Slime pump should have connectors for the two-prong thing, and Widder surely should have some for their equipment. Ryland, whenever you get a chance, if it's not too big a deal, maybe you could take a pic of your battery-wired-through-in-line-fuse setup--as in, "electrics for dummies", since my level of competence in that area (as well as many others ) is that of a ".......fill in as needed....challenged" person. But I'm always willing to learn.

 

I guess the Tycos should be fine. It maybe from Ryland that I first heard about the Siemens vs. Tyco thing, and if they're made in Portugal they should be fine (wtf, they were making Leica R camera bodies last time I looked at one). Who knows, maybe Siemens were made in China.

 

From Ryland's comments the seat vs. battery thing seems to be well enough hidden yet more serious than I thought, so I'll definitely check on that. I haven't ridden the bike since last Monday when I brought it. I'm just about to give it a good wash, it's full of sand and road spray, poor she.

 

Thanks again.

 

tmcafe

[jrt]

Gerbing gloves are very comfortable and work well. Highly recommended. My hands are cold, but not damaged even when driving for 1-3 hours in temperatures around 15 F.

I cannot speak for Widder gloves.

[tmcafe]

Gerbing gloves are very comfortable and work well. Highly recommended. My hands are cold, but not damaged even when driving for 1-3 hours in temperatures around 15 F.

I cannot speak for Widder gloves.

Thanks jrt. At least that's what I've heard about the Gerbing gloves vs. Widder. When you're wearing your gloves, are you wearing a vest too? (I've got a Widder which works fine). My first concern would be if the fairly small alternator can take both vest AND gloves (in this case, Gerbing). From the specs, the max 350w come at 5k rpm, which means that one can only rely on the full power if they're running at those revs.

[Ryland3210]

Thanks jrt. At least that's what I've heard about the Gerbing gloves vs. Widder. When you're wearing your gloves, are you wearing a vest too? (I've got a Widder which works fine). My first concern would be if the fairly small alternator can take both vest AND gloves (in this case, Gerbing). From the specs, the max 350w come at 5k rpm, which means that one can only rely on the full power if they're running at those revs.

 

The Widders have leather fingers and palms. The back of the forefingers is covered with suede. That is very handy for wiping raindrops, etc. off a face shield or goggles. The fabric balance is claimed to be waterproof. I find them very comfortable without hot spots. The gauntlets are bulky, but I like that because it is insulation against the cold. They slip over my jacket just fine. Good insulation on the backs of the hands and fingers as well. The collar around the next extends up under the helmet as well. There seems to be plenty of power available from my Cafe Sport to run them, and I cruise at typically 3,000 RPM. I have no experience with the Gerbings. Both companies have good reputations. Widder claims to have been making this type product longer than anyone else. I have been thoroughly satisfied.

 

Here is a picture of the connection to the battery. The Widder's cable came with the in-line fuse. I didn't have to buy anything. I also included a picture of the seat mod before I filled the hole with black silicon rubber. You can see the white foam within the triangular shaped cuttout. The Battery bracket picture shows how I bent it in the same places as the original, changing a pair of 90 degree bends into about 120 degrees to lower the battery's bottom about 1/2 inch to clear the seat.

 

[docc]

I like my Gerbings gloves (33 watts) but found they were too much for the electrics with the jacket (77 watts). The alternator is rated for 350, but at 10,000 rpm! It make more like 250 at typical cruise speeds and may have 50 or 60 available for accessories.

 

But 5wt oil in aGuzzi? I dunno . . .

[jrt]

I do not have a vest. I have a roadcrafter suit and that has been warm enough for me (with a warm fuzzy sweater underneath, of course).

 

The Gerbing setup I have is a short pigtail that connects to the battery and has an inline fuse. I then have a longer piece that has a rheostat in it, so I can control the heat to the gloves (otherwise known as a variable temperature controller), then another pigtail to the gloves. I have never run the temp controller at full. Usually it is at 1/2 or less.

 

Typically, I run the wires through my roadcrafter suit, the temp controller comes out at teh waist so I can adjust it, then run it back into my suit and through my arms to my hands. I invariably forget that I'm attached to the bike at some point and I yank myself and almost fall down at least once a ride. Hey, at least I'm honest.

 

The suede on the back of the Widders sounds like a good idea.

 

Oh, now I'm remembering a time I wish I could forget. One early November day a couple years ago I had to go to a meeting that was 3 hours drive. It was cloudy and ambient temperature was 36 F and it was very windy, but I decided to ride my bike anyhow. I rode down, did the meeting thing for 2 hours then drove back. I thought I had dressed well, but my core temperature dropped- gloves didn't help a bit there- and by the time I got home, I had to spend an hour in a HOT shower just to get back close to normal. Man, I had a headache for two days after that. Don't be like me. Go ahead and get a vest.