More Qs: oil, errors in owner's manual, torques,

[tmcafe]

Hi all,

 

I'm so happy that the v11 site is back on--and in a cleaner format, IMO. In the meantime I've been looking for all kinds of wisdom, and found more questions instead. Should any have been addressed before, please redirect me and accept my apologies. So here it goes:

 

1. Cleaning mesh filter--@ what mileage? Somebody else (dlaing?) said it seems like an overkill to clean it every 6000 miles (drop the pan, gasket thing, etc). In fact, why would you even need a wrench for the filter cover when you can just stab it with a screwdriver to loosen it. Looking in the owner's manual, as well as in the shop manual, I noticed that in both cases, while in the schedule table it is marked as every 6000 miles, the procedure as described in the text calls for 30000km or 18000miles instead. I'd say that's the correct figure, but I don't want to take assumptions for certitude. What's your take?

 

2. Gearbox/Transmision Oil Grade. Again, the manuals (owner's and shop) list different grades in the table of fluids vs. the procedure text, i.e. SAE 90 in the table and 80W-90 (same as the base drive shaft oil) in the procedure. While it may not be a big difference, I still think that probably the second grade is correct. Also, on the Agip USA website I, which claims they work hand in hand with Piaggio (whether this is good or bad, who knows), I found an oil called MG/S SAE 85W-90 (I guess the initials stand for Moto Guzzi), which is meant for Moto Guzzi transmisions, and replaces the Rotra MP/S, exceeds GL-5, blah, blah... What gives?

 

3. Drive Shaft Snake Oil (the Moly concoction). I've been looking for what that thing is, or an equivalent of it, and couldn't find anything like a list of ingredients in Agip Rocol ASO/R, or Moly type 4. So here's what I found:

 

http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info...products_id=246

 

http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info...products_id=135

 

http://www.harpermotoguzzi.com/molyadditive.htm (Guard Dog and Redline)

 

I also found something about Maxima Maxum4 Blend. However, I read about a note/comment saying that actually Moto Guzzi's most recent recommendation for dealers is "do not use any moly compounds" in the drive shaft oil . Also the Agip USA website mentions a Gear MG SAE 85W-140 for bevel box or shaft transmission on Moto Guzzi, to be used instead of Rotra Truck Gear oil.

 

4. The grease for the shaft drive joints Here Agip has a Lithium EP-1, and an EP-2. Also found several greases at Mme de Walmart (like General Purpose Grease made by SuperTech, with a Lithium Soap 7620-77-1, grade 2 (which is what we need), and a drop point of 350F (the manual calls for about 180C). Then there's Supertech NLGI GC-LB (lithium complex base), but with a drop point of 500F. At a bike store I found Silkolene Pro RG2 with Lithium Stearate, in the form of a pressure can; and a Maxima Waterproof Grease, Lithium, #2, Drop point 282C; and Teflon white Lithium Grease.

 

So again, which to use?

 

5. Mesh cleaning solvent: Gasoline??? Yes, it's gasoline all the way, in all the other languages. I don't like the idea. Can it be cleaned with something more benign, such as kerosene or such? hmmm

 

6. Greasing Drive Shaft. How do you clean the old grease? (required)

 

Okay, that's plenty for now. I'm curious what everybody else's experience/knowledge says, and thanks in advance.

 

Best,

 

tmcaf

[Greg Field]

1. Cleaning mesh filter--@ what mileage?

2. Gearbox/Transmision Oil Grade.

3. Drive Shaft Snake Oil (the Moly concoction).

4. The grease for the shaft drive joints

5. Mesh cleaning solvent: Gasoline???

6. Greasing Drive Shaft. How do you clean the old grease? (required)

 

1. Never. I'll look at it each time I remove the pan, but there's never anything on it.

 

2. Any good gear oil. We use Maxima 80/90 at Moto Intl., unless someone wants better, in which case we put in Redline Shockproof Heavy

 

3. The moly is for the bevelbox only. It's not snake oil. We use PowerPunch at Moto Intl. If you put Shockproof in, you do not need additional moly because that oil is chock full of moly. If you're looking for a source, we sell it and ship parts all over the world daily. A lifetime supply is about $10.

 

4. Use a synth grease that is compatible with other greases. I use Redline's grease in mine. You will almost certainly need an adjustable tip for your grease gun to grease the front cross.

 

5. If there's stuff on the screen, I look for the problem first (cracked air filter, breaking parts) that is allowing big chunks of stuff into my sump. Then, after the motor rebuild, I blow the screen off with compressed air.

 

6. With a rag and solvent.

 

If you want to find inconsistencies or errors in the service manual, you needn't look far. The page that shows how to adjust damping on your Ohlins forks is wrong. The page that recommends 5w-40 oil is pulled straight out of the Cali PI manual (they didn't even change the header or footer), and thus the 5w-50 recommendation is also likely wrong. You'll find more accurate info here than there . . .

[tmcafe]

1. Never. I'll look at it each time I remove the pan, but there's never anything on it.

 

2. Any good gear oil. We use Maxima 80/90 at Moto Intl., unless someone wants better, in which case we put in Redline Shockproof Heavy

 

3. The moly is for the bevelbox only. It's not snake oil. We use PowerPunch at Moto Intl. If you put Shockproof in, you do not need additional moly because that oil is chock full of moly. If you're looking for a source, we sell it and ship parts all over the world daily. A lifetime supply is about $10.

 

4. Use a synth grease that is compatible with other greases. I use Redline's grease in mine. You will almost certainly need an adjustable tip for your grease gun to grease the front cross.

 

5. If there's stuff on the screen, I look for the problem first (cracked air filter, breaking parts) that is allowing big chunks of stuff into my sump. Then, after the motor rebuild, I blow the screen off with compressed air.

 

6. With a rag and solvent.

 

If you want to find inconsistencies or errors in the service manual, you needn't look far. The page that shows how to adjust damping on your Ohlins forks is wrong. The page that recommends 5w-40 oil is pulled straight out of the Cali PI manual (they didn't even change the header or footer), and thus the 5w-50 recommendation is also likely wrong. You'll find more accurate info here than there . . .

Thanks a lot Greg! Yes, I trust the info in this forum more than the "official" MG stuff, more so when backed by the most competent people here and at Moto Intl. As far as inconsistencies, I've already found some obvious ones: like the mileage schedule for the mesh filter, and even more seriously, the "no-moly" requirement for the drive shaft grease (the French instructions say that it should contain moly!). But we hope that between engineers, typists (as in earlier times), tech writers and translators, much of the info comes out accurate.

 

Still have a few more questions to clarify the above:

 

2. So it's not SAE 90 as in the tables, but 80W-90 as in the instructions. Should it be hypoid gear oil, or any quality GL-5 can do?

 

3. I was joking about snake oil (moly additive) because I'd read somewhere that one of Guzzi's recent updates for dealers supposedly said "no more moly" in the drive shaft oil. But if Greg doesn't confirm it, then it stays the same as in the owner's and shop manuals.

 

4. How can you tell if a grease is a) synthetic, and compatible with other greases? (for a I guess it's written on the tube).

 

Also, Greg brings up a point about the oil grade. When I called Moto Int. the other day, I was told that they use Shell Rotella T. I assumed it was the grade in the manual: 5W-40. So if the manual is wrong about the grade, which one should we use in the V11: 5W-40, or 15W-40? I got the 5W-40, but if that's not the one, I'll exchange it for 15W-40.

 

In any case, the Castrol racing and Agip versions mean that any oil change should cost about $35-40. No way Jose!

 

The other thing Greg mentions is the

[tmcafe]

Formerly, I used 85W140 in the final drive, which is heavier than the stock recommended 80W90. That was on the advice of an old school, long gone Guzzi guru/mentor who lived and dreamt Eldorados. I never had any final drive problems. No need to get too worked up over oil, but some do.

 

I don't think I've ever cleaned or seen anything on the sump pickup screen on any of my Guzzis, under normal circumstances. A lot of the maintenance items are sort of "padding" for the dealers when they do the 6K, 12K service, etc. It doesn't hurt anything to do a lot of it, but it's really not necessary.

 

I know absolutely nothing of the MG dealers in Idaho, but MI knows a lot and has been around a long time. MPH in Houston is good also. Both are dedicated shops. I typically order from MPH (closer to me) if my local dealer doesn't have the part I need or I'm in a rush.

 

Nice digs in Boise, by the way.

Thanks Kevin! Greg too mentions the PowerPunch additive, and if a lifetime supply costs so little, so much better. I also saw the 85W-140 grade mentioned somewhere as the one we need for our final drive, but I'd rather stay with the current recommendations.

 

You too confirm the mesh screen is always clean. At least one thing not to worry about more than once a year or so.

 

The Guzzi dealer here in Boise is big on BMW, which is good since I have one of those too. They also do Triumph, Aprilia, Piaggio and Moto Guzzi. They're known to be good and also they're not a "boutique" store. Overall I've had a good experience with them, including warranties, so I trust them. However sometime this year their service manager--the most competent and trained guy, and the one who worked on Italian and Brit bikes, left to open his own business, and another long-time mechanic retired, so now they're re-training somebody, but it may take some time until whoever replaces them reaches the same level of competence.

[Greg Field]

TM:

 

Just a clarification: We do not use Rotella T at MI. At least I have never seen it there. For the V11s, we generallly use a semi-synth Motul 15w-50. This is pretty good oil. It is only semi-syth, but the synth in it is the best type, polyolester. Inm y own bike, I usually blend my own from Redline and another full synth (as opposed to a "fake" synth, which is hydro-cracked mineral oil that is marketed in the US as synthetic, such as syntech or Rotella T) that is also rated SG. I am an odd duck, though. I see a lot of the insides of engines, and this has convinced me that oil is cheap, even at the $15 a quart the manufacturers charge for their best stuff. This winter, I'm running a blend of three quarts 10w-60 and one quart of Redline 10-40.

 

Grease: I use redline. I pumped grease through to drive out most of what was in there, rotated the shaft a few times, and pumped more out. Kind of a "grease change, I guess. Compatibility becomes less of an issue then.

 

DId you get the shop manual on CD or paper? I can get you the Ballabio/Cafe supplement.

[tmcafe]

I am an odd duck, though. I see a lot of the insides of engines, and this has convinced me that oil is cheap, even at the $15 a quart the manufacturers charge for their best stuff.

Yes, that's a reason I'd use a more expensive oil, rather than for some faith/hype-based peace of mind. Also you can probably tell what's really worth and what's just oil mfr's claim/snake oil.

 

Now, the mistake in the owner's and shop manuals is that they require 5W-40 as for the PI engines, instead of 15W-50, or 15-40, or 10W-50? If that's the case, how can the lower winter rating affect the V11 engine if it doesn't hurt the clutch and transmission?

 

Also, the manual doesn't say a word about SG rating, but from what I've read, including Guzziology, that is more important than the grade (and you confirm it too by using it in your bike).

 

Now is the blend of dyno and synthetic required for an optimal lubricant for the engine, or is it just for cost-cutting purposes? (full synthetic would cost more).

 

And what is the difference between the true synthetic (polyolester), and the hydro-cracked mineral oil? Does the true synth break down slower than the "fake" when run in the engine? Less deposits? And do the manufacturers have to state clearly on the containers what's true synthetic and what's hydro-cracked? (in other words, how can we tell which is which?)

 

Sorry to ask so many questions, but given your experience, you know what difference the oil quality makes. So as far as the oil you recommend for the V11 engines, should it be a 15W-50, ideally synthetic or at least blend of real synthetic, and SG rated? And is it less expensive to mix your own from dyno and synth, than use a ready-made blend?

 

Since in most cases oil in a bike gets changed at 3k, is Guzzi's recommendation to change oil at 6k based on using very good oil? In other words, one can use an okay oil and change it more often, or one of the best, and push the change intervals? Is it more important to change the oil often rather than put in a high-end oil that won't get changed as often?

 

Grease: I use redline. I pumped grease through to drive out most of what was in there, rotated the shaft a few times, and pumped more out. Kind of a "grease change, I guess. Compatibility becomes less of an issue then.

What can make a grease incompatible with the other? (is it the kind of soap, as in lithium vs. something else?). As far as I've seen, most greases have a lithium compound.

 

DId you get the shop manual on CD or paper? I can get you the Ballabio/Cafe supplement.

Dave at MI made me a copy of the V11 Sport shop manual on a CD. The Ballabio/Cafe Sport supplement is just a thin tiny booklet of a few pages that gives a brief description of the

[belfastguzzi]

There is a recent thread where Greg explains the necessity of SG oil. I can't find it. Doing a search for any particular oil thread is a bit like looking for a little black thing in a dirty oil sump. This one will have to do.

 

Where have people found SG oil in the UK? 10w-60 is the stuff that the Griso uses.

AGIP does Racing 10-60 SG – if you can find it.

 

In the thread that I was looking for, Grossohc said that he was going to Halfords for SG(?) at a more reasonable price.

I did have Halfords synthetic, SG rated, so I went there this afternoon to get some more.

Of course, it's SJ now! Their oils are all SJ or SL.

There was nothing at SG.

There were no 10w-60s either.

 

I see on the web there is a Castrol R4 Superbike 10w-50 fully synthetic 4 stroke motorcycle engine oil, API SG, JASO MA.

 

So, what SG oils have people found, that are generally available?

Any 10w-60 stuff?

[belfastguzzi]

I've looked up Penrite, 'cos P.R. uses this.

He has a 10W-70! I associate Penrite with old classics.

 

I don't see the 10w-70: maybe it hasn't made it to the UK yet.

There is the following info though. Looks like it's saying that the 50/60/70 oils do have higher phosphorous, because the limit only applies to the lower number weight range? – OUTSIDE of USA anyway– I read similar elsewhere.

The 10W-70 is an SM.

Note the classification: ACEA A2/A3 with B2/B3 or B4 performance levels. So maybe, in Europe, Australia..., SL and SM are good, if they show ACEA A2/A3 with B2/B3 or B4?

Hmm...

 

>>

There have been a number of articles and we have heard comments from various “expert” commentators regarding the more recent API specifications and their impact on older petrol engined vehicles. Unfortunately there is a lot of mis-information out there and also contradictory information as to what can and cannot be used in older vehicles.

 

The focus has been on zinc, or more correctly, ZDTP (zinc di-thiophosphate). For many years this has been the anti wear additive of choice as it is the most cost effective (and one of the most effective) chemistry to use. Also incorrectly described as an extreme pressure additive, its primary role is to prevent wear in the rings and in the valve train (cams, tappets, valve stems etc) of the engine.

 

When you add ZDTP you also add phosphorus. This is a catalyst poison and there have been limits on it since the days of API SH (1994) when a 0.12% limit was imposed. Prior to that, in the days of API SG (1989) many manufacturers already had put a 0.10% limit on phosphorus. So, “low” phosphorus has been with us for quite some time.

 

In effect, an engine oil that contains about 0.1% phosphorus or higher, will easily provide the required anti wear properties for older engines and in fact ones at around 0.07% will do the job very nicely. As a rule of thumb, zinc content is about 10% higher than the phosphorus content but there are some variances occasioanally.

 

Within these changes was the incorporation of friction modifiers. The early ones were very active and did cause oil consumption in older engines. These days, technology is well advanced and this no longer is the case.

 

Now we have API SM – for the first time, the limit on phosphorus is from 0.06-0.08%. There are industry concerns about the applicability of these oils in older engines. However, the limit only applies to 0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils (so called “ILSAC” grades, GF-4). Any other grades are exempt from this. In the US though the same additive tends to get used all the way from 0W-20 to 20W-50 as as a result, the new low phosphorus SM/GF-4 packs find their way into older engines. This is why many of the "beware of no zinc" papers and articles are coming from the US.

 

There is one other factor with non-ILSAC oil grades. If they also have the European ACEA A2/A3 with B2/B3 or B4 performance levels, phosphorus levels will also be at 0.10 % to 0.12% as their tests have been more severe than the API for some time. Hence an oil that is SL (SM)/CF/A3/B3 also well exceeds the anti-wear requirements for older engines.

 

The irony is that API SF and SG oils formulated in recent years usually have phosphorus contents of around 0.08% (usually 0.1% maximum) anyway due to other advances in technology, unless the blender chooses to add extra additive.

 

This brings us to diesel oils.

 

Currently, they have no phosphorus limits – as such many people recommend them for older cars, even though many others say that the detergent levels are too high and the engine will use oil. Well, you cannot have it both ways. This one originated from the USA and hence did not take into account European ACEA standard petrol engine oils, which are easy to find in Australia, NZ and Europe, but a lot harder to find in North America.

[tmcafe]

I remember Greg's recent post about the SG oils, and I think it was related to unexpected cam wear. This goes with what Dave says in Guzziology about the lack of anti-wear additives in the new API grades that no longer include SG in the range of grades they meet. Until we find out exactly how the non-SG new oils meet the motorcycle specific demands for anti-wear compounds, I'll stick with SG.

 

Interesting story you posted. Where did you find that info? One thing I remember reading somewhere is that the ACEA regulations are much better than API when it comes to anti-wear elements. In other words, API tends to sacrifice the anti-wear components in order to protect the catalyst. It may be that a non-SG oil that meets ACEA is as good as SG.

[belfastguzzi]

I remember Greg's recent post about the SG oils, and I think it was related to unexpected cam wear. This goes with what Dave says in Guzziology about the lack of anti-wear additives in the new API grades that no longer include SG in the range of grades they meet. ......

It may be that a non-SG oil that meets ACEA is as good as SG.

That's what I'm wondering. The article seems to say so – at least outside of USA....????

 

The article is from the Penrite UK website:

http://www.penriteoil.com/uk/nextpage.php?...20Engine%20Oils