Charging system

[docc]

This comes up about this time every year. Again, I thought it needed a thread of its own. There have been concerns that the V11 charging system isn't up to lot of extra load. While promotional materials tout a 350 watt alternator, the shop manual charts indicate this output is at 10,000 rpm.

 

I've done some quick and dirty voltage readings in the driveway with the Gerbings. Attached is the table of results. No question there are lots of variables here: state of charge ( looks like my Hawker doesn't hold its 12.84v as well as the original"Spark" unit), ambient temperature, engine temperature, 50000 miles on the alternator, and so on. Surely your results will vary. Yet, I think there are some conclusions to be drawn.

 

First, I don't suppose my Sport has 99 watts to spare for my cozy warmth unless I'm cruising the freeway at 4500-5000 rpm. I've tried to cruise around the backroads at rpm over 4000 and it just isn't consistent. The battery runs down.

 

Second, it would sure be attractive to have a replacement hi output alternator available. Seems like something about a tapered shaft has kept us out of the aftermarket.

 

Your comments?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

2000 V11 Sport, 50000 miles, Hawker Odyssey PC545, PIAA H4*

Gerbings jacket (77 watts), Gerbings gloves (22 watts)

 

STATUS / DC V(hi beam) / RPM @ 12.84 v(hi beam*)

 

 

cold / 12.73

 

Idle 1500 indicated* /12.32 / 1900

 

Idle(gloves) / 12.20 / 2100

 

Idle(jacket) / 12.07 3300

 

Idle(both) / 11.97 / 4000

 

3000 rpm / 13.40

 

3000(gloves) / 13.27

 

3000(jacket) / 12.50

 

3000(both) / 12.35

 

 

*notes:

 

I always ride with the hi beam on. The bulb is a PIAA Extreme White anitvibration hi-zoot $50 job that says

[BrianG]

You could surplus some electrons by converting to a HID headlamp and LED lights elsewhere. The HID units typically draw about 35W and are actually brighter, so about 1/2 of a decent quartz-halogen unit, and LED's draw almost nothing. This might helps some..

[Guest Phil_P]

It would help a lot if his headlight is actually drawing the 100Watt figure. I've been thinking of building some resistors and LED's into standard bulb caps to use as instrument illumination and idiot lights, could probably save another 10W or so if I do the parking light and tail light too. LED indicators present a problem unless you do some mods to the flasher circuitry.

[Guest Nogbad]

The best thing you can do is get the 2 channel Gerbing heat controller. The clothing in my experience is way too warm if on all the time, and the controllers will probably chop the total load by at least 50%. This solved the problem of my Gerbing gloves and gilet flattening the battery on the V11 last winter, and improved comfort levels as I could turn the heat right down in town where you don't need it and revs are low.

 

http://www.gerbing.com/tc/dualperm.html

[Tom M]

You could surplus some electrons by converting to a HID headlamp and LED lights elsewhere. The HID units typically draw about 35W and are actually brighter, so about 1/2 of a decent quartz-halogen unit, and LED's draw almost nothing. This might helps some..

 

Here's an HID kit that works on other bikes but I don't know how well it would work on a Guzzi.

http://www.xenonrider.com/products/h4_bixenon_hid_kits.shtml

[Tracey]

Good Stuff!

I use Gerbings socks and pant liner with a BMW vest (old style). Have'nt had any problems yet, but I turn off rolling into town unless 30 something F. Also have Hot Grips on the bike for those required winter rides, sanity promoting crazyness......

Don't know why but my old Quota wouldn't handle the same load....

 

Thanks for recording the readings..

[Ryland3210]

This comes up about this time every year. Again, I thought it needed a thread of its own. There have been concerns that the V11 charging system isn't up to lot of extra load. While promotional materials tout a 350 watt alternator, the shop manual charts indicate this output is at 10,000 rpm.

 

I've done some quick and dirty voltage readings in the driveway with the Gerbings. Attached is the table of results. No question there are lots of variables here: state of charge ( looks like my Hawker doesn't hold its 12.84v as well as the original"Spark" unit), ambient temperature, engine temperature, 50000 miles on the alternator, and so on. Surely your results will vary. Yet, I think there are some conclusions to be drawn.

 

First, I don't suppose my Sport has 99 watts to spare for my cozy warmth unless I'm cruising the freeway at 4500-5000 rpm. I've tried to cruise around the backroads at rpm over 4000 and it just isn't consistent. The battery runs down.

 

Second, it would sure be attractive to have a replacement hi output alternator available. Seems like something about a tapered shaft has kept us out of the aftermarket.

 

Your comments?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

2000 V11 Sport, 50000 miles, Hawker Odyssey PC545, PIAA H4*

Gerbings jacket (77 watts), Gerbings gloves (33 watts)

 

STATUS / DC V(hi beam) / RPM @ 12.84 v(hi beam*)

 

 

cold / 12.73

 

Idle 1500 indicated* /12.32 / 1900

 

Idle(gloves) / 12.20 / 2100

 

Idle(jacket) / 12.07 3300

 

Idle(both) / 11.97 / 4000

 

3000 rpm / 13.40

 

3000(gloves) / 13.27

 

3000(jacket) / 12.50

 

3000(both) / 12.35

*notes:

 

I always ride with the hi beam on. The bulb is a PIAA Extreme White anitvibration hi-zoot $50 job that says

[tmcafe]

This comes up about this time every year. Again, I thought it needed a thread of its own. There have been concerns that the V11 charging system isn't up to lot of extra load. While promotional materials tout a 350 watt alternator, the shop manual charts indicate this output is at 10,000 rpm.

Good thread and great to see the testing. I'm surprised, though, about the indicated rpm in your shop manual. In all the info I've read so far, from owner's manual to shop manual, it's 350W at 5,000 rpm. Here's the info as copied from the shop manual (in CD form), page 4:

 

ALTERNATOR GENERATOR

Installed on the front part of the crankshaft.

Output capacity: 350 W at 5000 r.p.m/min. (14 V - 25 A)

[docc]

Those charts are posted on the forum somewhere. I don't recall any change to the alternator over the year ranges. Certainly the voltages and charging behavior are consistent with the lower output shown in the printed manual's charts.

 

Of course, I also have some Guzzi material that says I have White Power suspension and a 5.8 gallon tank.

 

EDIT: After a brisk 40 mile ride yesterday, my Hawker was holding 12.84v. I'm anxious to see what it looks like after sitting overnight.

 

Edit/EDIT: 12.80 after sitting overnight. (I've never had an AGM battery drop off at all. It don't make me happy.

[Gini Fata]

Those charts are posted on the forum somewhere. I don't recall any change to the alternator over the year ranges. Certainly the voltages and charging behavior are consistent with the lower output shown in the printed manual's charts.

 

Of course, I also have some Guzzi material that says I have White Power suspension and a 5.8 gallon tank.

 

EDIT: After a brisk 40 mile ride yesterday, my Hawker was holding 12.84v. I'm anxious to see what it looks like after sitting overnight.

I can tell you that I had to install a new battery on my last trip 2 weeks ago. The battery was a couple years old and it died using my electric jacket and hot grips. The day after the new battery was discharged after using the hot grips for a couple of hours in the mountains in West Virginia. I am going to illiminate the grips this winter and use the gloves when I have to. The 2ksport just doesn"t have it for the little extras. Jacket only has never caused a problem.

[Ryland3210]

Those charts are posted on the forum somewhere. I don't recall any change to the alternator over the year ranges. Certainly the voltages and charging behavior are consistent with the lower output shown in the printed manual's charts.

 

Of course, I also have some Guzzi material that says I have White Power suspension and a 5.8 gallon tank.

 

EDIT: After a brisk 40 mile ride yesterday, my Hawker was holding 12.84v. I'm anxious to see what it looks like after sitting overnight.

 

In the workshop manual for the V11 Sport, there is a graph of output current versus RPM.

 

Here are some numbers:

 

RPM Amps

1000 9.5

2000 20

3000 23.5

4000 25

5000 26

6000 26.5

10000 27.5

 

The output drops off fast below 3000 RPM, and does not increase much above that. Elsewhere, it states the output voltage is 14 to 14.6. At the average of 14.3 volts, it delivers 336 watts at 3000 RPM. Example: If an electric heated vest and jacket combo is rated at 99 watts at 12.6 volts, it will consume 112 watts at 14.3 volts, or 7.9 amps. Therefore, it is important to know what voltage the clothing is rated at so you can calculate the current. The bottom line is that if the alternator cannot deliver enough current to supply the load, the battery will eventually be discharged.

[docc]

I see my owner's manual also specifies 350 watts @ 5,000 rpm. From the chart now I can take 26 DC amps, @ 5,000 rpm, times the voltage allowed by the regulator at full charge (13.5 DCv) giving almost exactly 350 watts.

 

I'll have to try riding at 5000 rpm (not easy unless all freeway) and check for discharge. It is also time to clean and put copper paste on the regulator ground strap to the case and all the ground terminals on the battery end.

 

Really a full 350 watt charge should support the bikes electrical system ( maybe 170 watts), a hot bulb ( add maybe 40 watts) and 99 watts of electric clothing ( Gerbings vest and gloves): totalling 310 watts. Even with a 10% error that's 340 watts. Sounds like the trick is keeping the revs at 5000 rpm!

 

A thermocontroller or timing circuit would help , but the high revs are surely the key.

[Ryland3210]

I see my owner's manual also specifies 350 watts @ 5,000 rpm. From the chart now I can take 26 DC amps, @ 5,000 rpm, times the voltage allowed by the regulator at full charge (13.5 DCv) giving almost exactly 350 watts.

 

I'll have to try riding at 5000 rpm (not easy unless all freeway) and check for discharge. It is also time to clean and put copper paste on the regulator ground strap to the case and all the ground terminals on the battery end.

 

Really a full 350 watt charge should support the bikes electrical system ( maybe 170 watts), a hot bulb ( add maybe 40 watts) and 99 watts of electric clothing ( Gerbings vest and gloves): totalling 310 watts. Even with a 10% error that's 340 watts. Sounds like the trick is keeping the revs at 5000 rpm!

 

A thermocontroller or timing circuit would help , but the high revs are surely the key.

 

Hi Docc,

 

I couldn't find anything in the manual to give a clue to the current drawn by the ECU, fuel pump, and any other non-lighting loads there may be. Is there any data on these to your knowledge? With that missing information, an accurate calculation could be made. BTW, wattage specs on clothing may have a significant tolerance, or may be rated at a lower voltage than 13.5 so it will draw more than 99 watts, etc.

[BrianG]

It would help a lot if his headlight is actually drawing the 100Watt figure. I've been thinking of building some resistors and LED's into standard bulb caps to use as instrument illumination and idiot lights, could probably save another 10W or so if I do the parking light and tail light too. LED indicators present a problem unless you do some mods to the flasher circuitry.

 

I have converted whatever I could to LED lights. I found a LED-capable flasher unit to replace the OEM unit that requires more current draw than LED's provide to trigger the flashing. Also, replacing either the front OR rear signal light bulbs with LED's but leaving the other pair as incandescent will provide sufficient current for the OEM flasher.

 

I replaced all of the ennunciator (idiot) lights with LED units but discovered that you cannot replace the signal light ennunciator with a LED. I don't understand how, really, but that circuit reverses polarity when changing from left to right, so with LEDs you will only get the ennuciation one way OR the other but not both.

 

All of the M/G light bulb's LED replacements are available here http://www.autolumination.com/

 

Be careful buying a HID replacement for the V-11 headlight. The nacelle is shallow and many of the H4 bulb's element actuation unit makes the HID bulb too deep for the nacelle.

[docc]

Hi Docc,

 

I couldn't find anything in the manual to give a clue to the current drawn by the ECU, fuel pump, and any other non-lighting loads there may be. Is there any data on these to your knowledge? With that missing information, an accurate calculation could be made. BTW, wattage specs on clothing may have a significant tolerance, or may be rated at a lower voltage than 13.5 so it will draw more than 99 watts, etc.

 

Ry,

 

This is true. There is no spec for what the bike draws to live. I pulled that number from a prior thread ("Battery Leaks", I believe; a great thread due to the contributions of GARY CHEEK). I would still like to know what the normal current draw is for a running V11. It may vary for the later model fuel pump, I dunno.

 

Most accessories are rated by amperage. I edited my specs on Gerbing gloves as they are rated 22 watts, the jacket: 77 watts. The Gerbings vest: 54 watts.

 

Aerostich says their vest is 45 watts. Widder (in the Whitehorse Press) states their vest ranges by size: 33 to 48 watts. I recall heated grips being 16-18 watts(?).

 

The change in amperage with voltage is one of those scientific slide rule phenomena that kept me out of engineering. I figure the "acid test" is to plug up the electrics you want to use, set your lamps the way you use them , turn on your GPS and Radar detector if you use them, cue the Bluetooth and the MP3, your transponder, transporter and any other electrofunk and zap that you routingly use, then measure the voltage and rpm that will hold above 12.84 DCv for the AGM battery.

 

I'm finding 100 watts makes my Sport unhappy( as in,"come get me, Honey, the bike's dead.") I'm thinking of getting the Aerostich vest at 45 watts and go for the core temperature effect.

 

No matter what ( hey, I live in th' Deep South), 40 degrees F is my riding limit. Below that too many Deutsche und Skandinavian cars give ice warnings (either 38*F or 36*F). I don't want to be there on my Pirellis even if my sorry p'toot is all warm and cozy.