Late model pork chop to engine brace

[Skeeve]

Tires back then could be made sticky, but they did not have the technology yet for combining longevity, grip, etc.

Or maybe you would like to believe that Hailwood is defying the laws of physics???

 

They didn't have sticky compounds that could last a race back then [at least not in anything that wasn't a rain tire.] Bias ply tires mean the sidewalls couldn't have handled the sort of traction available in Cheap Sh!t tires today. Don't you know the story of the Ducati Apollo? 1000cc V-4 engine that was made up at the U.S. importer's req. (Berliner? Can't remember) that never went into production simply because there weren't any tires that could handle the power! Mike? Berliner? was quoted as saying "we had it up on the sidestand in gear & playing w/ the throttle, and you could see the rear tire growing as the wheel spun up..."

 

Mike the Bike didn't defy the laws of physics, he simply marched them right up to their edge & made'em stand at attention. The pic doesn't show him hanging off like Rossi is because while I'm sure he might have liked to do so, the frames back then were so spindly that the bike might have started doing the hula if Mick didn't keep the mid-section of the bike clamped tight between his butt cheeks...

 

Wouldn't you love to have a time machine so that you could take Rossi, Hayden, Stoner, et al back in time & watch them get spanked by Hailwood, Ago, & all the other old timers? Or not - either way it'd make for some fascinating racing!

[Skeeve]

I don't think the piastra colleg did anything for handling. It was tedious to install, but my gearcase has not cracked again.

 

Just in case anyone else is wondering, I plugged "piastre colleg" into the translator & it means "connection plate."

 

Somehow I was hoping for a slightly less mundane description, but whatever!

[Baldini]

So here are a couple of photos of Stan's racer. ...

 

Is that some hefty additional bracing above gbox too?

 

KB

[Paul Minnaert]

no, so hefty is the original 1100 sport, just like the v11 sport

[Guest ratchethack]

Well, a certain motorcycle design expert (who incidentally hints that Dr. John "lifted" the whole spine frame idea from one of his designs) suggests when modifying old Superbike frames [AHRMA variety now; current "back in the day"] which were notoriously flimsy, he'd mount the frame on the wall, stick a bar through the headstock, give a measured pull & record the deflection. After making the mods, giving another pull & checking deflection, it was readily apparent how much improvement there had or had not been. So you could always try that method, Ratch'!

Say Skeeve.

 

I presume you refer to Tony Foale? It's long been my understanding (just ancient legend, far from documented fact) that Foale actually owed the spine frame design concept to Swiss Engineer Fritz Egli, of Vincent-Egli fame. Wot say you?

[dlaing]

Thank you, Dave. I kinda thought so myself.

 

Uh-oh. . .[sigh]. . .

 

Um, if you've made a point above that I've somehow reinforced, Dave, it's completely escaped me. Could you kindly enlighten me. By what possible twisted contortion of illogic might I have managed to accomplish this??

 

Enquiring minds (well, I b'lieve you know darn well. . .[sigh]. . .)

Val is clearly pulling more G's rounding the turn with fat tires.

Most professional racers today could beat Mike Hailwood and his bike using todays tires and frames even if you reduced today's bikes to the dyno outputs of Hailwood's bike and had Hailwood ride the antiques.

The frames and tires have worked together as an evolution, producing better traction and tire longevity, not just for the stop go direction but also for cornering.

Power has something to do with the fat tire, but thin tires are used on underpowered bikes more because of rolling resistance, not cornering grip.

[Guest ratchethack]

Try to find a picture of Mike Hailwood getting anywhere near close to this lean angle of Valentino Rossi.

Excellent comparison!

Thank you, Dave. I kinda thought so myself.

Thanks for reinforcing my point

Uh-oh. . .[sigh]. . .

Um, if you've made a point above that I've somehow reinforced, Dave, it's completely escaped me. Could you kindly enlighten me. By what possible twisted contortion of illogic might I have managed to accomplish this??

 

Enquiring minds (well, I b'lieve you know darn well. . .[sigh]. . .)

Val is clearly pulling more G's rounding the turn with fat tires.

Most professional racers today could beat Mike Hailwood and his bike using todays tires and frames even if you reduced today's bikes to the dyno outputs of Hailwood's bike and had Hailwood ride the antiques.

The frames and tires have worked together as an evolution, producing better traction and tire longevity, not just for the stop go direction but also for cornering.

Power has something to do with the fat tire, but thin tires are used on underpowered bikes more because of rolling resistance, not cornering grip.

Niiiiiiiice series of twists and flips , but seems to me none of it has the slightest to do with either wot you asked for, or wot I provided in response to your request, Dave.

 

Would your last post be a triple back flip with a double twist in the pike position, or was that a different "spin" on the famous "Triple Lindy"??

[dlaing]

Looks to me like Valentino is leaning and hanging much further out.

Of course you could narrow my definition of leaning to bike only, and then you would be correct and I would be wrong, as Hailwood's bike is close to Rossi's bike's lean angle.

FWIW camera angle seems to indicate Rossi's bike could have a few degrees on Hailwood's bike, thanks to those phat tires.

Put Hailwood's tires on Rossi's bike and Rossi would be scraping at that angle, assuming he had not lost grip.

Fatter and bigger tires allow greater lean angle of the bike.

[FuelCooler]

FWIW-

Hailwoods roadway appears to have much greater positive camber. I know he used to wear off his toes, but as impressive as Mikes lean is (and the bike angles look similar in the pics) his elbows were never in any danger (as long as he wasn't crashing). Regardless off the width debate, tires are much sticker today. Progress.

[Guest ratchethack]

FWIW-

Hailwoods roadway appears to have much greater positive camber.

Take another look, Steve. The 2 wedges of light in the distance in the photo create the false illusion of a banked curve. The 2 Charade Clermont-Ferrand moto courses were in fact true road courses and had no banking at all, see link (below) and check it out with Google Earth at the link provided there:

 

<a href="http://www.gearthhacks.com/dlfile26080/Cha...t-Racetrack.htm" target="_blank">http://www.gearthhacks.com/dlfile26080/Cha...t-Racetrack.htm</a>

[dlaing]

Here is the camera angle lined up with the ground angle.

Still pretty impressive, especially considering it was an inline six, which must have been wider than much of the competition.

Hailwood used a very upright riding position and must have been very close to running out of tread.

[guzzigray]

 

If you need to see a picture of a real Lemans.....

[Guest ratchethack]

Here is the camera angle lined up with the ground angle.

Still pretty impressive, especially considering it was an inline six, which must have been wider than much of the competition.

Hailwood used a very upright riding position and must have been very close to running out of tread.

Hmmmmmm. . .

 

Yep, it's Mike the Bike in both shots on the 250 six alright. But your shot seems to be quite different than the one I posted. In yours, there's no background reference of any kind for "level", whilst in the shot I posted, it's easy to use the knowledge of an entirely flat course with the line of the inside curve to establish "level" . . .

 

And yet, by the photo frame angles, at first glance it would appear to be different lean angles altogether -- no question about it. . .

 

Different lap? Different day? Different course?

 

And has there been some Photoshoppery here?

 

Is your shot "on the level", Dave??

 

Enquiring minds (well, I'm pretty sure you know -- eh, Dave??)

 

-- Hercule Hatchracket, Private Investigator

[dlaing]

And has there been some Photoshoppery here?

 

Is your shot "on the level", Dave??

 

Enquiring minds (well, I'm pretty sure you know -- eh, Dave??)

 

-- Hercule Hatchracket, Private Investigator

I photochopped a larger version of the same picture to fit how I see it, not as the drunken photographer saw it.

So, yes it is more on the level than the initial shot.

Sorry I should have mentioned the photochopping.

No deceit intended.

[Guest Phil_P]

Are you sure that it's the same picture you used Dave? There are a whole lot of reference points that look different. Ie, the white line ahead of the front wheel, and emerging from the right shoulder. The white line visible in the angle created by the left knee, and even the distance between the front and rear wheels.