Nasty Hiccup

[docc]

Count me in. I wonder if giving Dan Prunuske the option of carrying them would yield higher volume for the manufacturer and lower hassle for you.

 

BTW, I see I can get to the fuel pump connections without lifting the tank. One of the rubber boots has slipped off and the connections face forward into the weather. I'll clean them and apply some copper paste thinking that poor connection at the fuel pump may be contributing to the load on the relay.

 

Also, it's important to realize that wiring separate headlamp relays is not to save the relay, but to route the lamp current around the ignition and run switches.

[WitchCityBallabio]

Count me in too. Will you use one for each relay, or just the starter relay?

[Ryland3210]

Count me in. I wonder if giving Dan Pruneske the option of carrying them would yield higher volume for the manufacturer and lower hassle for you.

 

Good idea. I'll contact Dan once I hear from Omron.

[Ryland3210]

Count me in too. Will you use one for each relay, or just the starter relay?

 

Good question. The starter relay is the only one using 5 pins. My plan is to replace all the relays and keep my originals as spares. Depending on the prices I get, I may focus on only getting the 5 pin versions. If they plug into the sockets which only use 4 pins, they will all be interchangeable.

 

Are you interested in just replacing the starter relay, or all of them?

[dlaing]

A diode with current rating at least as high as the load would probably work fine in Guzzi's.

From Pyro Dan's FAQ

14. I can get relays elsewhere. Got any advice?

Make sure any relay you install does not have an internal protective diode. These relays expect coil terminal 86 to be positive and terminal 85 to be negative. Some Guzzi relay sockets are wired the opposite. Installing a relay with a protective diode in these sockets will cause fuses to blow! We do recommend relays with an internal protective resistor. A relay with no diode and no resistor, e.g., Siemens V23073, can be used for the fuel pump and ECU relays on some late model Guzzis because a protective diode is hard wired into the bike's harness.

http://www.dpguzzi.com/relay_faq.htm

According to Carl A.'s wiring diagram, our bikes are all grounded at the 86 terminal.

[Ryland3210]

From Pyro Dan's FAQ

14. I can get relays elsewhere. Got any advice?

Make sure any relay you install does not have an internal protective diode. These relays expect coil terminal 86 to be positive and terminal 85 to be negative. Some Guzzi relay sockets are wired the opposite. Installing a relay with a protective diode in these sockets will cause fuses to blow! We do recommend relays with an internal protective resistor. A relay with no diode and no resistor, e.g., Siemens V23073, can be used for the fuel pump and ECU relays on some late model Guzzis because a protective diode is hard wired into the bike's harness.

http://www.dpguzzi.com/relay_faq.htm

According to Carl A.'s wiring diagram, our bikes are all grounded at the 86 terminal.

 

Thanks, Dave, for pointing this out.

 

The moral to this story is that anyone thinking of installing their own arc suppression components should have a reasonable understanding of electronics. Many other considerations come into play besides diode polarity. Capacitors have working voltage ratings, there are polar and non-polar types, resistors have power ratings, etc.

[Guest Phil_P]

According to Carl A.'s wiring diagram, our bikes are all grounded at the 86 terminal.

 

Yes, but did anyone tell Luigi?

[Ryland3210]

My discussion on diode suppression on the relay coils was intentionally academic, since the relays under consideration have internal suppression. However, according to the schematic, the starter relay contacts drive a relay which in turn drives the starter motor. I'm thinking of using a diode across its coil to save the starter relay's contacts from what is likely to be a pretty powerful arc.

 

I don't want to use a resistor or capacitor in this case.

 

 

Does anyone know if it already has suppression, and if not, how much current it draws? If not, I'll measure it.

[docc]

Does anyone know if it already has suppression, and if not, how much current it draws? If not, I'll measure it.

 

 

That's a good question for Dan.

 

I mentioned the Omron to him as well as the suspect location of the Sport's fuel pump connections.

[Ryland3210]

Here's the latest news from Omron:

They are not running production on the relay with the higher contact ratings than Tyco/GEI alternatives. The unit they have available is rated at 20 amps continuous on the Normally Open contacts and 10 amps continuous on the Normally Closed. The starter relay uses the NO contacts to run the starter motor.

The GEI data sheet specifies 25 amps for resistive load on the NO contacts, but does not specify inrush current capability, whereas the Omron specifies 60 amps inrush on the NO contacts. This is important because it tells us how much current it can withstand when the starter button is pushed.

 

Omron also publishes extensive test data on the relays. For example a 300,000 cycle test at 100 amps inrush.

 

Omron is willing to send me relays for this application to evaluate. I will accept their offer, test the relays and see what kind of deal I can get on discount pricing and report back.

[Guest ratchethack]

Outstanding, John.

 

Have you run this by Dan "the Guzzi Relay Man" P. yet?

 

The reason I ask is that it occurs to me that he may well've been down this road previously. If not, I reckon he'd be nothing but an enthusiastic, and eminently qualified asset to you in evaluating these. I'm sure it'd make for a great collaboration. If it goes well, he'd be the potential supplier that I'd expect to be more than ready, willing, and able to buy, stock, & sell by quantities as low as onesy's to the Guzzi community at a reasonable price -- not to mention the PyroDan Lifetime Warranty.

 

Nice work.

[docc]

I'm feeling small and furry and have a test mule named 'Bella.' . . .

I've put a Bosch in the ECU slot since feeling a couple light 'burps' when the Sport is cold and theorizing the ECU relay feeds the FI relay.

Otherwise I plan a full connector clean with the tank off this winter.

It occurs to me, if the Omrons are used as OEM, what is the application? Perhaps we could simply buy them from the car dealer as relays for the fog lamps of a BMW or the fridge in a Caddy limo?

[dlaing]

If the ECU relay is going out, like in DOCC's case, it probably has little to do with the load rating, and more to do with the quality of the relay.

IMHO the Bosch 0-332-207-307 and Tyco V23074A1001A403 are perfectly fine for all but bikes with the overloaded NC contact on the Starter relay.

For the bikes with the overloaded starter relay condition, the GEI may be the only relay up to the task that fits the socket.

For all other relay needs, there should be no need for the GEI with 25A rating on the NC terminals(Normally Closed / terminal 87A)

The bikes that have the overloaded relay are from about 1999 to about 2002. I am not sure when Guzzi fixed the issue, but the 2004 wiring diagram of Carl Allison shows that the fixed it.

Some people buy just one GEI relay to use as the starter relay, and then run Bosch or whatever in all the other relay sockets.

The other sockets are all 4 pin sockets and they don't require a 5 pin relay and NC current.

The best way to fix the overload is to run the headlights through dedicated relays. This also results in brighter headlights.

Dedicated horn relays would also help take a load off the starter relay on the early V11s.

A headlight off switch can also help extend the life of the starter relay, assuming you rarely use the headlight.

Perhaps Dan could be convinced to sell relays other than GEI to fit the 4 pin sockets and just sell the GEI as the 5pin starter relay???

But maybe that just confuses the average customer???

[Guest Phil_P]

I have had more than my fair share of relay problems on my Sporti, which were solved with the fitment of a set of Dan's GEI's. However, after a couple of trips to the race track, I started to get a mis-fire under light load between about 4750 and 5250 RPM. I did some relay swapping and the issue again seems to have resolved.

 

The thing that has piqued my curiosity however, was the narrow engine rev range in which problems seem to be occuring, and I am starting to think that there may be a resonance issue that might be causing a measure of contact bounce. If this is indeed the case then I would also think that the bounce would cause even more arcing at the contacts than we might otherwise expect, and make a bad situation even worse. Crrently, I am experimenting with inserting foam padding between the relays, and am contemplating a strap to fit firmly over the top of all of them.

 

I hasten to add that this is conjecture at the present, but it might explain why some bikes experience no problems, and those that do have problems at a range of RPM's due to differing harmonics and reasonances from model to model.

[docc]

I had considered contact bounce as a possibility in the start of my hiccup. As you say, it then worsens the problem and develops to where it occurs without bounce.

 

I don't understand how the Starter Relay NC 87A is under any higher demand than the Headlight Relay NO 87. They flow the same current in the running state. The biggest difference is that the Headlight Relay's coil stays energized while the Starter Relay's coil does not.

 

Having added headlamp and horn relays the greatest current flowing through the factory relays is through the FI Relay for the fuel pump.

 

What changed in the 2004 harness?