Nasty Hiccup

[Ryland3210]

If the ECU relay is going out, like in DOCC's case, it probably has little to do with the load rating, and more to do with the quality of the relay.

IMHO the Bosch 0-332-207-307 and Tyco V23074A1001A403 are perfectly fine for all but bikes with the overloaded NC contact on the Starter relay.

For the bikes with the overloaded starter relay condition, the GEI may be the only relay up to the task that fits the socket.

For all other relay needs, there should be no need for the GEI with 25A rating on the NC terminals(Normally Closed / terminal 87A)

The bikes that have the overloaded relay are from about 1999 to about 2002. I am not sure when Guzzi fixed the issue, but the 2004 wiring diagram of Carl Allison shows that the fixed it.

Some people buy just one GEI relay to use as the starter relay, and then run Bosch or whatever in all the other relay sockets.

The other sockets are all 4 pin sockets and they don't require a 5 pin relay and NC current.

The best way to fix the overload is to run the headlights through dedicated relays. This also results in brighter headlights.

Dedicated horn relays would also help take a load off the starter relay on the early V11s.

A headlight off switch can also help extend the life of the starter relay, assuming you rarely use the headlight.

Perhaps Dan could be convinced to sell relays other than GEI to fit the 4 pin sockets and just sell the GEI as the 5pin starter relay???

But maybe that just confuses the average customer???

 

The issue of quality is key. When are ratings to be believed? Under what conditions are they specified?

 

According to the 2004 schematic, the starter relay's NC contacts only drive a relay coil, so as long as that coil has internal suppression resistors, the NC contacts have an easy job. I remain concerned that the NO contacts drive the starter motor relay-is it arc suppressed?

 

I expect to measure its current draw tomorrow.

 

I'm hoping someone can tell us if it has internal suppression. If not, I'll get an oscilloscope on it.

 

The spec sheet provided on the GEI relays does not specify contact resistance. That determines the voltage drop across the contacts, and the heat generated thereby.

[Ryland3210]

Outstanding, John.

 

Have you run this by Dan "the Guzzi Relay Man" P. yet?

 

The reason I ask is that it occurs to me that he may well've been down this road previously. If not, I reckon he'd be nothing but an enthusiastic, and eminently qualified asset to you in evaluating these. I'm sure it'd make for a great collaboration. If it goes well, he'd be the potential supplier that I'd expect to be more than ready, willing, and able to buy, stock, & sell by quantities as low as onesy's to the Guzzi community at a reasonable price -- not to mention the PyroDan Lifetime Warranty.

 

Nice work.

 

Thanks, Ratchethack.

 

I'm working with Omron on evaluating their alternatives. They will be sending me samples shortly. I'm not sure Dan qualifies as a tier one or two supplier to the automakers, as I am. It is that status that has allowed me to get past the distributor level into Omron corporate. The purpose is to tap into the high reliability, high performance products they sell to the automakers, and to get the best possible discount pricing for our members.

 

I'm happy to provide Dan with the results of my research, pricing, etc., once I have completed it.

[Ryland3210]

I'm feeling small ad furry and have a test mule named 'Bella.' . . .

 

I've put a Bosch in the ECU slot since feeling a couple light 'burps' when the Sport is cold and theorizing the ECU relay feeds the FI relay.

 

Otherwise I plan a full connector clean with the tank off this winter.

 

It occurs to me, if the Omrons are used as OEM, what is the application? Perhaps we could simply buy them from the car dealer as relays for the fog lamps of a BMW or the fridge in a Caddy limo?

 

I initially tried to find an application, but it's like a needle in the haystack. Furthermore, different part numbers are used for different marketing channels. That would have been quicker, but since it didn't work, I went direct to Omron. It's more time and effort that way, but it has the advantage of lower prices. I'll keep plugging away.

[Ryland3210]

I had considered contact bounce as a possibility in the start of my hiccup. As you say, it then worsens the problem and develops to where it occurs without bounce.

 

I don't understand how the Starter Relay NC 87A is under any higher demand than the Headlight Relay NO 87. They flow the same current in the running state. The biggest difference is that the Headlight Relay's coil stays energized while the Starter Relay's coil does not.

 

Having added headlamp and horn relays the greatest current flowing through the factory relays is through the FI Relay for the fuel pump.

 

What changed in the 2004 harness?

 

In the 2004 version, the starter relay's NC contacts only drive a relay coil. There may be other differences.

[Guest ratchethack]

Thanks, Ratchethack.

 

I'm working with Omron on evaluating their alternatives. They will be sending me samples shortly. I'm not sure Dan qualifies as a tier one or two supplier to the automakers, as I am. It is that status that has allowed me to get past the distributor level into Omron corporate. The purpose is to tap into the high reliability, high performance products they sell to the automakers, and to get the best possible discount pricing for our members.

 

I'm happy to provide Dan with the results of my research, pricing, etc., once I have completed it.

John, please accept my apologies if I've made assumptions I shouldn't have.

 

It hadn't occurred to me that you might be pursuing a long-term business relationship with Omron. Having communicated with Dan in the past, I knew he had researched relay mfgr's extensively for many Guzzi applications, and I just couldn't imagine that he had missed Omron. If he hasn't evaluated their relays, I reckon there must've been a pretty good reason, and if so, he more'n likely crossed that point years ago.

 

But if I've swum into competitive waters here, I've likely got well past green water and into the blue -- don't want to tip your hand on a potentially competitive situation!!

 

In any case, good luck and best wishes on your venture!

[dlaing]

I don't understand how the Starter Relay NC 87A is under any higher demand than the Headlight Relay NO 87. They flow the same current in the running state. The biggest difference is that the Headlight Relay's coil stays energized while the Starter Relay's coil does not.

The current flow is the same, the problem is that every available relay that I know of is rated for lower amps at the 87A than at the 87.

The GEI has the highest known amp rating at the 87A.

If Ryland can delve beyond the relay catalogs on the web, he may find a relay that fits with a higher amp rating on the 87A and possibly of higher quality, although the GEI does seem to be of very high quality, so it will be tough to beat. Maybe he can find a relay with diodes reversed from what is commonly available????

 

having added headlamp and horn relays the greatest current flowing through the factory relays is through the FI Relay for the fuel pump.

You have a very light load at your 87A. Although the GEI relays should be fine for you, you don't need the amp rating that the GEI offers. Instead your ultimate relay would the highest quality relay, not the highest amp rated relay. The frequently recommended Bosch and Tyco relays will probably work as well as the GEI for your setup.

 

What changed in the 2004 harness?

I am not sure when the change occurred, it may have been in the 2003/2004 bikes with the front exhaust balance pipe, but I think it occurred even before that, after Guzzi realized that they had overloaded the 87A terminal on the starter relay.

On the early bikes, the 87A terminal of the starter relay carried the current for the headlights, horns and more. The total current was close to the maximum amp rating of the 87A terminal of the OEM relays. After they 'fixed' the wiring, the same 87A terminal only carried the current to activate the lighting relay, so the problem was essentially solved but relays still fail for other reasons, like possibly vibration and sub-standard quality. Bad connections seem to aggravate the situation...

[Guest Phil_P]

I asked a friend of mine if he could come up with a Zener (Transil) diode to wire into the ECU power line to protect from voltage spikes. The component that he produced for me is a bi-directional zener with no polarity. Would this component be suitable for de-arcing contacts of unconfirmed polarity?

[Ryland3210]

John, please accept my apologies if I've made assumptions I shouldn't have.

 

It hadn't occurred to me that you might be pursuing a long-term business relationship with Omron. Having communicated with Dan in the past, I knew he had researched relay mfgr's extensively for many Guzzi applications, and I just couldn't imagine that he had missed Omron. If he hasn't evaluated their relays, I reckon there must've been a pretty good reason, and if so, he more'n likely crossed that point years ago.

 

But if I've swum into competitive waters here, I've likely got well past green water and into the blue -- don't want to tip your hand on a potentially competitive situation!!

 

In any case, good luck and best wishes on your venture!

 

No worries, Ratchethack. It's not a new relationship with Omron for me. We have been using their PLC's and other components for many years.

 

Competition is not the factor here. I'm looking to be of service and recover my costs, that's all. This is a small ticket item, and it's not something I've engineered.

 

It doesn't matter a hill of beans to me if someone else works a better deal with Omron and makes a buck in the process.

 

To be candid, I'm also pursuing this as much for my own edification and use. I have doubts about Chinese sources and the validity of their ratings and quality control. I have personally done business with the Chinese and travelled there many times since 1983. My doubts arise from personal experience.

 

As far as collaboration is concerned, whereas I started out with limited data and experience in the field of TPS and Synch methods, in the field of relays its different. My experience goes all the way back to my days at HP, when I tested and specified numerous relays for use in their computer testing equipment. Frankly, while I know my limitations, collaboration in this specific case would just slow things down. The sample relays are on the way.

[Ryland3210]

I asked a friend of mine if he could come up with a Zener (Transil) diode to wire into the ECU power line to protect from voltage spikes. The component that he produced for me is a bi-directional zener with no polarity. Would this component be suitable for de-arcing contacts of unconfirmed polarity?

 

It depends on the stored energy and current draw of the coil in question. The Zener should have to have a current rating exceeding the coil current and what is called an I squared t (fuse) rating exceeding the stored energy. The Zener's voltage may vary with temperature. It's important that its voltage is higher than the charging voltage under all circumstances. It's somewhat complex. The Zeners used for voltage regulation on the older bikes were rated to absorb the entire alternator/generator output, so they would certainly work. Less than that requires analyzing the Zener's specs.

[Guest ratchethack]

I have doubts about Chinese sources and the validity of their ratings and quality control. I have personally done business with the Chinese and travelled there many times since 1983. My doubts arise from personal experience.

My doubts about the PRC and electronics sourced there go far and wide. . .gotta concur. . .

... the field of relays its different. My experience goes all the way back to my days at HP, when I tested and specified numerous relays for use in their computer testing equipment. Frankly, while I know my limitations, collaboration in this specific case would just slow things down. The sample relays are on the way.

Got it. The Guzzi Relay Brain Trust grows & expands, while a tiny "captive" market (of sorts) eagerly awaits. . .

[Ryland3210]

The issue of quality is key. When are ratings to be believed? Under what conditions are they specified?

 

According to the 2004 schematic, the starter relay's NC contacts only drive a relay coil, so as long as that coil has internal suppression resistors, the NC contacts have an easy job. I remain concerned that the NO contacts drive the starter motor relay-is it arc suppressed?

 

I expect to measure its current draw tomorrow.

 

I'm hoping someone can tell us if it has internal suppression. If not, I'll get an oscilloscope on it.

 

The spec sheet provided on the GEI relays does not specify contact resistance. That determines the voltage drop across the contacts, and the heat generated thereby.

 

More data:

 

The starter solenoid on my '04 measures at 0.245 ohms, so at 12 volts cranking voltage, it would draw 50 amps. The Omron relay specifies a switching current of 60 amps, with 100 amps inrush and a durability of 300,000 cycles. Their advertised spec on electrical life is 100,000 operations. So far, so good.

[dlaing]

To be candid, I'm also pursuing this as much for my own edification and use. I have doubts about Chinese sources and the validity of their ratings and quality control. I have personally done business with the Chinese and travelled there many times since 1983. My doubts arise from personal experience.

While I too have prejudices towards products from specific nations, my personal experience has been that I keep hearing crap about certain countries and that I should buy from other countries, and then I listen to the bullshit and still end up with crap, whether it is made in USA, China, Japan, Europe, Indonesia, or some fallen block country, it is all a crap shoot.

I have had good luck with NEC, Koni, Ohlins, Pirelli, Marelli, Norelco, brother, Hyundai, Toyota, Panasonic, Kenwood, Toshiba, Aiwa, Sunpentown, Onkyo, Denon, Bates Leathers, Lexmark, Apple, Xerox, Motorola, Amana, Bell, GE and GEI.

I have had bad luck with Guzzi, Oster, Ford, Mercedes, Honda, Conti, Mazda, Isuzu, Epson, Sherwood Mitsubishi, and especially bad luck with Sony, but somehow I keep buying their crap.

YMMV!!!!!!!!

Even brand names don't seem to mean what they used to.

Many established a good reputation and then moved factories to where it could be made cheaper and quality suffered.

China is the number one country for that syndrome, but it does not mean everything from China is crap.

Siemmens and Bosch used to be good names, but I am no longer impressed.

People have had trouble with just about every brand of relay except for the GEI relay, until now.

My GEIs have far outlasted all my Siemmens and Bosch.

There are exceptions to every stereo-type and the GEI is one of China's finest products.

http://www.geirelays.com/

 

RANT MODE OFF

That being said, if you can find a relay with better than 20A switching rating at the 87A and better than 25A switching rating at the 87, then I think you could make a lot of people happy.

Even if you can find a better quality 4 pin relay there is a market.

I would not worry too much about competition with Dan, as he is not doing it to profit, but it would be nice to give him a heads up so he does not order a hundred relays and get stuck with them, after all the people he has helped.

[dlaing]

The spec sheet provided on the GEI relays does not specify contact resistance. That determines the voltage drop across the contacts, and the heat generated thereby.

This spec sheet does

http://www.geirelays.com/acrobat/AR4.pdf

[docc]

More data:

 

The starter solenoid on my '04 measures at 0.245 ohms, so at 12 volts cranking voltage, it would draw 50 amps. The Omron relay specifies a switching current of 60 amps, with 100 amps inrush and a durability of 300,000 cycles. Their advertised spec on electrical life is 100,000 operations. So far, so good.

I'm not at all sure how to convert ohms to amps, but 50 amps seems like a darn high draw for a solenoid (isn't that just a big relay?).

 

After all, what does the starter motor itself draw.

[Guest ratchethack]

I'm not at all sure how to convert ohms to amps...

Ohms = Volts/Amps

 

or

 

R = E/I

 

handy online conversion tool here:

 

http://www.bcae1.com/ohmslaw.htm