Which dynojet for '04 V11?

[dlaing]

How low do the cells go in your Tuneboy? In other words, how low in degrees/TPS voltage does your map go, and is the fuel mapped with the same entries below some degrees/TPS?

 

I found part of the answer to my question in the chart you posted earlier, but also this comment you had made at the time:

 

" That is what I feared.

.....

The only hints that is critical are the degrees not matching the volts and on MPH's chart it says,

"Anything below 4 degrees open ECU considers bike to be at idle (as seen by 'flag' on diagnostic program)"

But that is probably just a useless 'feature' of the diagnostic software and not the ECU, and not an invitation to set idle to 4 degrees." "

I suppose the four cells with fuel value 53 could be considered the infamous idle flag

But ignition timing dances a different song.

Top ignition map is Titanium 'race' ECU, bottom is standard ECU EDIT sorry, Bottom is Ti, top is standard.

[Ryland3210]

Nice Charts, Dave.

 

Do you know whether the ECU interpolates between cell entries? If so, then the 53's in the 1.99 degree cells for 900 and 1300 RPM and the 55 and 56 entries in the 4.18 degree cells would vary the fuel delivery somewhat in that range of RPM's, towards richer as RPM increases, assuming there is no overriding "flag" in the ECU's software. If not, the fuel delivery stays at 53.

 

Are you sure the bottom chart of timing is standard? The file name looks like it is for Ti, and the more advanced timing in certain areas, e.g. the idle regime also looks like something more agressive tuning would include.

[Ryland3210]

Nice data, there Dave. The 4 degree TPS flag would also coincide with an error message I get if the TPS is set at 4 degrees at idle: "Warning: TPS Short Circuit." In other words, the ScanTool software won't let me set TPS at 4 or above at idle. Also, without looking at the charts, it's typical for the "performance" ECUs to advance timing over the stock ones. I've installed these on autos, and the fuel octane requirements go from 87 to 91, presumably to take advantage of advanced timing and prevent spark knock. You guys can go around with this as long as you like, but I'm fairly certain that on my machine the low speed mixture stays constant below 2K RPM, based on the observed effects of adjustments I make.

 

Agreed on the "performance" timing generally advanced over stock. It even does that at idle, where octain is less of a factor, but will increase efficiency and save a little fuel there, at the expense of a less stable idle, and perhaps a little more pollution. Whether case 1 or case 2 is the reality, the mapping up to 2,000 RPM at TPS below 4 degrees changes little, corresponding to your experience.

[dlaing]

Nice Charts, Dave.

 

Do you know whether the ECU interpolates between cell entries? If so, then the 53's in the 1.99 degree cells for 900 and 1300 RPM and the 55 and 56 entries in the 4.18 degree cells would vary the fuel delivery somewhat in that range of RPM's, towards richer as RPM increases, assuming there is no overriding "flag" in the ECU's software. If not, the fuel delivery stays at 53.

 

Are you sure the bottom chart of timing is standard? The file name looks like it is for Ti, and the more advanced timing in certain areas, e.g. the idle regime also looks like something more agressive tuning would include.

Jeff in Ohio suggested that the ECU has about 17 steps at each cell.

I certainly don't know for sure, but I would assume interpolation does happen, and doubt a flag would kill it.

I did get the chart names backwards. I had not noticed that both map titles had the work Ti in them, and typed without fully reading.

That must be why the 3.66

[dlaing]

You guys can go around with this as long as you like, but I'm fairly certain that on my machine the low speed mixture stays constant below 2K RPM, based on the observed effects of adjustments I make.

You mean the low speed fuel metering, not low speed mixture, right?

[dlaing]

Bottom is Ti, top is standard.

From another thread Greg posted the following that got me thinking...

I was just reading the instructions included with the Guzzi Ti pipes. They specify different tuning for the bikes with the front crossover and the bikes without the crossover. Fr the non-crossover bikes, it says set the TPS to 3.8 degrees +/- 0.1 degree, which it says corresponds to 550 mV +/- 5mV. For the crossover bikes it says set the TPS to 2.9 degrees +/- 0.1 degree, which it says corresponds to 465 mV +/- 5mV.

 

Perhaps this difference is meaningful and needs to be taken into account in the procedure set forth in this thread?

Looking at the maps above it might make sense to set the idle TPS to 1.99

[Ryland3210]

From another thread Greg posted the following that got me thinking...

 

Looking at the maps above it might make sense to set the idle TPS to 1.99

[dlaing]

Hi Dave,

I have a front crossover, and I'm headed for some kind of decision now that I have changed my mufflers and airbox cover. Tuneboy, Direct Link, Cliff's Optimizer, PCIII, Dynojet. So many choices, so little time. It's this tech nerd's nightmare.

Please refresh my memory: does Tuneboy provide for tuning cylinders separately, or does only the PCIII do that?

Evidently Tuneboy allows timing changes, does PCIII?

Thanks, John

I can't believe this rare bike of our's has so many choices!

All of the options can modify fueling to to each cylinder separately, except for the discontinued PCIII Serial. The PCIII USB can map them separately.

I was a little unsure about the TuneBoy's ability to map the cylinders separately because it did not come with clear documentation, but the map I suspected would do it is the one map that seems to correspond well with Motoguzzinix's O2 readings across both cylinders.

Which cylinder does this map effect? I don't know.

I'll bet the Direct link is a little better, but in the manual they call the cylinder maps front and rear instead of left and right. Once hooked to the ECU it may know better, or not.

Looking in my downloaded PCIIIUSB software, I could not find the second cylinder map, but I know it is available. It may require a pre-existing map mapped to two cylinders.

 

As for timing, all of the options except PCIII can do timing. Some PCIIIs can do timing, but not on Guzzis.

[Guest Phil_P]

If you want to use separate cylinder maps on the PC III usb, go to 'Tools' 'Promote Map to Advanced', you will then be given a second cylinder fuel map tab at the top of the map matrix.

[v11cafe]

I installed MG ti -kit 1 month ago, and since then I have adjusted the TPS 3 or 4 times trying to find an optimal value.

Instructions coming with the TI kit say 2.9 for bikes with front crossover, but this value doesn"t work, at least for my bike.

Bike starts to work almost perfect, when I get close to 3.6-3.8, but still doesn"t have the smooth sense it had before Ti kit.

Maybe Tuneboy, Direct Link, PCIII, allow a better degree of fine tuning, ..........although some time ago I was thinking

"who needs them....???????"

[motoguzznix]

From another thread Greg posted the following that got me thinking...

 

QUOTE (Greg Field @ Sep 27 2007, 07:16 AM)

I was just reading the instructions included with the Guzzi Ti pipes. They specify different tuning for the bikes with the front crossover and the bikes without the crossover. Fr the non-crossover bikes, it says set the TPS to 3.8 degrees +/- 0.1 degree, which it says corresponds to 550 mV +/- 5mV. For the crossover bikes it says set the TPS to 2.9 degrees +/- 0.1 degree, which it says corresponds to 465 mV +/- 5mV.

 

Perhaps this difference is meaningful and needs to be taken into account in the procedure set forth in this thread?

 

 

I installed MG ti -kit 1 month ago, and since then I have adjusted the TPS 3 or 4 times trying to find an optimal value.

Instructions coming with the TI kit say 2.9 for bikes with front crossover, but this value doesn"t work, at least for my bike.

Bike starts to work almost perfect, when I get close to 3.6-3.8, but still doesn"t have the smooth sense it had before Ti kit.

Maybe Tuneboy, Direct Link, PCIII, allow a better degree of fine tuning, ..........although some time ago I was thinking

"who needs them....???????"

 

In Europe, the bikes with front crossover are equipped with a catalytic converter.

In the US this seems not to be the case.

 

I'm sure the catalysed bikes are mapped completely different and I suppose the 2.9

[Ryland3210]

In Europe, the bikes with front crossover are equipped with a catalytic converter.

In the US this seems not to be the case.

 

I'm sure the catalysed bikes are mapped completely different and I suppose the 2.9

[Ryland3210]

I can't believe this rare bike of our's has so many choices!

All of the options can modify fueling to to each cylinder separately, except for the discontinued PCIII Serial. The PCIII USB can map them separately.

I was a little unsure about the TuneBoy's ability to map the cylinders separately because it did not come with clear documentation, but the map I suspected would do it is the one map that seems to correspond well with Motoguzzinix's O2 readings across both cylinders.

Which cylinder does this map effect? I don't know.

I'll bet the Direct link is a little better, but in the manual they call the cylinder maps front and rear instead of left and right. Once hooked to the ECU it may know better, or not.

Looking in my downloaded PCIIIUSB software, I could not find the second cylinder map, but I know it is available. It may require a pre-existing map mapped to two cylinders.

 

As for timing, all of the options except PCIII can do timing. Some PCIIIs can do timing, but not on Guzzis.

 

So it seems that if I want to change timing, I need Tuneboy or Direct Link, but if I want to avoid tedious trial and error tuning, I need PCIII USB mapping on a dyno as the first step. Correct? If so, I think there needs to be an improvement to the PCIII USB to enable the timing modification.

 

Here's how I see my program so far (tell me if this makes sense):

1. Buy PCIII USB and get the bike dynojet tuned.

2. Buy Tuneboy (or Direct Link) so I can change timing if I see the need and to tweak the cylinders separately.

3. Convince the dynojet tech to use all this equipment in tandem so one dyno session does it all. This will probably run up the bill, unless he decides to donate some of the extra time in the interest in learning something new.

4. Disconnect the PCIII USB and use Tuneboy (or Direct Link) to download the mapping developed in the dyno session.

5. Put the PCIII USB on the shelf. I'm confident it's a reliable and valuable device, but the less electronic complexity and potential connector problems on my bike the better. (This is how I feel, in spite of, or because of, 30+ years in electronic design and systems engineering).

 

Now, if only any one of these devices could do it all, that would be lovely. This is a pretty expensive proposition.

[RacerX]

Here's how I see my program so far (tell me if this makes sense):

1. Buy PCIII USB and get the bike dynojet tuned.

2. Buy Tuneboy (or Direct Link) so I can change timing if I see the need and to tweak the cylinders separately.

3. Convince the dynojet tech to use all this equipment in tandem so one dyno session does it all. This will probably run up the bill, unless he decides to donate some of the extra time in the interest in learning something new.

4. Disconnect the PCIII USB and use Tuneboy (or Direct Link) to download the mapping developed in the dyno session.

 

Now, if only any one of these devices could do it all, that would be lovely. This is a pretty expensive proposition.

 

1. Yes.

2. Correct, though I'd be *VERY* curious to hear if anyone (David?) has *successfully/completely* used the Tuneboy software. Last I asked in person, several folks had issues/glitches in the software, and were unsuccessful.

3. Likely will ever happen, unless you find a Performance shop that has, and likes to waste the time to use both for experimental purposes. If so, I'd imagine this will be a very costly procedure.

4. Yes, but not so simple. There will be a hours of trial and error interpolating, as the data/units are not remotely similar.

 

Yes it would... with some luck, there is some excitement for early next year on the horizon at Dynojet I recently learned while visiting there.

 

Funny how this these threads evolve when one person asks a simple question, eh?

[dlaing]

Tuneboy has worked fine for me.

The biggest pain was getting the key.

If I recall correctly, I had to hook the computer to the ECU, create a special file, email it to Tuneboy, wait a day, and then they sent me the key.

How do you get a Direct Link key?

 

The PCIII interpolation feature of the TuneBoy that I have only translates one type of PCIII map. If I recall correctly it only translates the .map files of the Serial PCIII and not the .djm (or whatever they are called) files from the PCIII USB.

There is a process using Microsoft Excel or a similar application so that you can use to translate a .djm to a .map. To confirm the accuracy of the conversion, convert back from .map to .djm using the tool in the PowerCommander USB software.

You might check with Tuneboy regarding which PCIII file Tuneboy supports.

Tuneboy can also use Tuning Link directly, but only, as Todd points out, if you find a willing dyno tuner.