oil filters

[Guest ratchethack]

[quote name='tmcaf

[tmcafe]

TMC, since you just installed the ST, you might be interested in the exploded view of it here: http://www.champlabs.com/products/oilfilters.html

Thanks. It looks like the picture on the box of the Wally's ST3614. Did you say the ST was actually made by Champion?

 

I note that the various OEM oil filters usable on the V11 are "extreme overkill" in terms of capacity for the V11 motor. The same filters are spec'd for automotive applications for 4 and 6 cylinder engines of double and triple the displacement of a V11. If I recall correctly, somebody found a oil filter awhile back that works on V11's that's about half the capacity of the ones most of us use, and IMHO this would be more than adequate for this motor.

This means that the UFI, which is bigger than the other filters I found, is overkill. Also this point is discussed by Dave R. in Guzziology: the larger filter combined with longer OCIs doesn't make any sense. Then the only advantage of the larger size is that it's easier to handle.

 

Having the dipstick out when doing oil changes would seem to resolve any concern here. It's something I guess I do without thinking about it.

Not if you're spacey enough to forget and screw it back in before you're done.

 

Even worse is when you do remember something (like the tires being cold when you start out in something like 30F) but don't act on the thought until it's too late. More about this later...

[Ryland3210]

[quote name='tmcaf

[Guest ratchethack]

A small addition to Ratchethack's reply:

 

A filter's bypass pressure relief setting is important. If it is too low, the bypass valve will open long before the filter's dirt collection capacity is used up, and oil will no longer be filtered as well. As the filter gets clogged, the pressure drop across it increases until exceeds the bypass pressure relief setting. While this is going on, the pressure delivered to the engine is reduced by that amount if the flow is insufficient, particularly at lower RPM's. This may not be enough for the engine's needs. At high enough flow rate, oil flow may be sufficient to blast through the filter's bypass and keep pressure drop lower and engine pressure higher. Unfortunately, the lower the pressure drop, the less oil goes through the filter element.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment, John. By design, any properly functioning bypass will never allow a pressure drop significant enough to restrict flow to the engine enough to cause damage to the engine under any circumstances. Of course the bypass relief setting is important, but no filter manufactured today that proves itself in testing (as most, but by no means all do) will have an incorrect setting. Here's why I believe for all intents and purposes, it's not something any V11 owner ever need think about.

 

Bypass relief pressurewould be important to us, IF there were any reason (any reason at all) to expect that a oil filter would ever bypass! On many vehicles this would be a significant consideration. On the V11, unless of course, you're using your V11 to "Beat the Baja 1000" with open velocity stacks -- and quite possibly even then! -- I submit that this is not the case, for 2 reasons:

 

1. The capacity of all the usual suspect oil filters anyone is realistically apt to use on a V11 are extreme overkill, as noted previously. This means that they are extremely unlikely to load up to the point of bypassing. Let's just put it this way: How close to "never" can "next to never" get -- regardless of how long a filter stays in service??

 

2. Someone a few years back, more'n likely The Oracle of Bungendore Himself, had posted that he'd made a regular practice of cutting open customer oil filters, possibly in an attempt to tell the future, the way Masai cattleherders read cow entrails to divine the timing of the wet and dry seasons and for determining who the lucky stiff is who gets their daughter's hand in marriage?! In any event, the salient remark was that he'd never seen an oil filter in a Guzzi that had shown any evidence of bypassing.

 

The point is, if you're changing filters every other oil change, or even every four or five -- or ten or twelve? -- as far as the bypass relief pressure is concerned, it don't mean a thing (and it ain't got no swing, either).

 

BAA, TJM, but I'm afraid nobody's M is ever gonna V on this one.

[tmcafe]

A filter's bypass pressure relief setting is important.

Aha! Good to know. You may have posted something about this here on v11lemans but I don't remember for sure. Although I confess I don't quite understand the explanation (I'd probably need pictures ), this may be one of the reasons to avoid some filters if there are other choices within the same price range.

 

I just looked up the specs for the Napa filter. By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: 8-11 http://www.napafilters.com/filterlookup/Pa...asp?Part=PS1215

 

Couldn't find that for Wally's ST3614.

[BRENTTODD]

Ill tell you what i have done enough oil changes to even count would be imposible. There is almost no chance of filing any of the talked about filters with dirt unless you use drain oil for your oil changes. If your looking for dirty oil to test the theroy i will gladly give enought for a life time. Any filter you are gona buy the risk of failer is very slim. Ive said it before Ill say it again you would be real surprised on who makes what for who. I also a firm beliver that everything has a risk nobody is perfect. In case you dont know new stands for NEVER EVER WORKED

[Ryland3210]

Ratchethack's disagreement that bypass relief settings are important for Guzzi's is based upon the assumption that Guzzi filters are changed frequently enough and that contamination rates are insufficient at that frequency.

 

Even a clean filter element causes a pressure drop. How much? I don't have numbers on this for the V11. Is the flow rate from the pump high enough with a clean element to cause bypass? I don't have the numbers here either.

 

Filters come with various difference bypass relief settings, even from the same manufacturer. There is a reason for this. My purpose is to contribute by explaining why things are done as the are, in fields I know something about, without making assumptions.

[Guest ratchethack]

Ratchethack's disagreement that bypass relief settings are important for Guzzi's is based upon the assumption that Guzzi filters are changed frequently enough and that contamination rates are insufficient at that frequency.

More accurately, loading rates are insufficient -- at practically ANY change frequency.

Even a clean filter element causes a pressure drop. How much? I don't have numbers on this for the V11. Is the flow rate from the pump high enough with a clean element to cause bypass?

Not with any filter you will ever get your hands on for a V11, unless it's a factory reject that somehow made it through QC. If you can prove you got one, and suffered significant material loss as a result (in something like a Bentley Continental, rather than a V11), you might have the basis for a hefty lawsuit on your hands.

Filters come with various difference bypass relief settings, even from the same manufacturer. There is a reason for this. My purpose is to contribute by explaining why things are done as the are, in fields I know something about, without making assumptions.

I appreciate that, John. But I think most of us (myself included) are more interested in the practical aspects of things and realistic expectations, rather than the strictly academic. This means making valid assumptions. Again -- for our purposes here, bypass relief pressure matters not a whit unless you've got a defective filter, and it sure ain't worth fussing over.

[dlaing]

Here is a good write up on the SuperTech

http://www.rightspin.com/motorcycles/misc/.../oilfilter.html

Maybe we should spend the money on BMW filters!!!

But looking at the Champion filter image that Ratchet posted, they sure do look different. Perhaps the post above is an older version of the filter???

 

Regarding bypass:

If you startup a Guzzi cold and the oil filter never bypasses, then it must have too high of a bypass pressure.

Bypassing is good. It keeps the oil pressure up.

This could be important if the filter became clogged, which is not likely on our bikes with filters replaced every 2-6000 miles. But, pressure build up and lack of flow also occurs when the oil is cold and thick. Combine the Guzzi's weak at idle oil pump, 0

[Ryland3210]

Agreed.

 

Not with any filter you will ever get your hands on for a V11, unless it's a factory reject that somehow made it through QC. If you can prove you got one, and suffered significant material loss as a result (in something like a Bentley Continental, rather than a V11), you might have the basis for a hefty lawsuit on your hands.

 

I appreciate that, John. But I think most of us (myself included) are more interested in the practical aspects of things and realistic expectations, rather than the strictly academic. This means making valid assumptions. Again -- for our purposes here, bypass relief pressure matters not a whit unless you've got a defective filter, and it sure ain't worth fussing over.

 

Sorry if I bored you with academic explanations. The question was asked, so I answered it. Everyone else (yourself included) is free to ignore the explanation.

 

OK, on the practical side, the NAPA PS1215 spec's max flow rate 7-9 GPM and bypass valve setting of 8-11 psi., lower than the 12-15 psi spec'd by UFI.

What is the pump's flow rate versus RPM? Is it high enough to force a bypass of this filter even when it new?

[Ryland3210]

Here is a good write up on the SuperTech

http://www.rightspin.com/motorcycles/misc/.../oilfilter.html

Maybe we should spend the money on BMW filters!!!

But looking at the Champion filter image that Ratchet posted, they sure do look different. Perhaps the post above is an older version of the filter???

 

Comments from the Yamaha Venturer website from a dissection of several filters:

 

Compared to the Yamaha OEM high tech filter:

 

Filters with more element area than the Yamaha filter:

Bosch 3233 premium

Purolator has tighter pleats

 

Less element area:

Super Tech

 

"Poor" filters with least area:

NAPA Gold "terrible"

Amsoil

[Guest ratchethack]

Here is a good write up on the SuperTech

http://www.rightspin.com/motorcycles/misc/.../oilfilter.html

Maybe we should spend the money on BMW filters!!!

Hm. I reckon we must have completely different understandings of what might be considered "a good write up". The above might be of interest to anyone apt to place any credibility on the "personal observation" of a completely unknown person using completely unknown (and unspecified) evaluation criteria, whose only apparent qualification for offering an opinion is that he has a camera and knows how to put photos on a Web site. For the rest of us -- useless.

[Ryland3210]

Hm. This might be of interest to anyone apt to place any credibility on the "personal observation" of a completely unknown person using completely unknown evaluation criteria, whose only apparent qualification for offering an opinion is that he has a camera and knows how to put photos on a Web site. For the rest of us -- useless.

 

Gee, lighten up, Ratchethack. Pictures do supply useful information, regardless of the qualifications of the photographer to judge filters. Opinions can be accepted or rejected based on the credibility of the expressor.

[Guest ratchethack]

OK, on the practical side, the NAPA PS1215 spec's max flow rate 7-9 GPM and bypass valve setting of 8-11 psi., lower than the 12-15 psi spec'd by UFI.

What is the pump's flow rate versus RPM? Is it high enough to force a bypass of this filter even when it new?

Hm. An oil pump's flow rate alone cannot possibly determine whether or not a filter will bypass, unless start-up temperatures are low enough to make viscosity a significant factor. Without an obstruction to create a pressure differential between the high and low sides of the filter sufficient to overcome the bypass relief valve, flow rate is irrelevant.

 

This discussion has met and exceeded my pre-set "irrelvant and tedious" bypass pressure, so I'm all done here, and will henceforth commence to bypass -- after a few parting shots, of course. . .

 

Unless an oil filter is anywhere near apt to bypass in a normal service cycle, the surface area of the filter media is irrelevant, and "more" DOES NOT necesarily mean "better" in any practical sense -- in much the same way that higher gauge steel of the filter can provides NO practical value inside a Guzzi sump, unless lesser gauge cans have any known tendency to fail.

 

As discussed previously in great depth in other threads over the years, there have been many posters to this forum who have made it perfectly clear that they evaluate air and oil filters on external appearance alone (!!) There are also some who evidently believe that if you PAY MORE for a filter, that this is necessarily an indicator of quality, and hence, value (!!) Now maybe this is just me, but I happen to believe that there are more sensible, practical, reliable, credible, and accurate ways to determine value than appearance, price -- and oh yeah, leave us not by any means omit groundless sales hype, rumor, what some unknown somebody somewhere said, and witchcraft.

 

Since some of us (ahem) have been reduced to looking at anonymous photo's of cut up oil filters , and considering subjective evaluation parameters on unknown and unidentified criteria, such as "more", "less", "cheesy", and "better", and comments offered by an anonymous poster on another forum without any frame of reference whatsoever (above), the following might be considered a considerble step up. It's a site I've been familiar with for many years: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html

 

It's a credbile (IMHO) evaluation (without any testing) of a half-dozen motorcycle oil filters on criteria that many (myself included) consider significant.

 

NOTE: the bypass relief pressures on the filters evaluated range from 17 - 25 psi.

 

So here's Mark Lawrence's take (see below, emphasis added by Yours Truly) on the irrelevance of bypass pressure to oil filters for all practical purposes. This guy's not just some shmoe with a camera and a baseless, groundless opinion. He's an engineer, theoretical physicist, motorcycle rider of some significant, some might say formidable moto experience, and owner of California Scientific, a Neural Network based artificial intelligence software company. His autobio appears here: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/About.html#Me

 

..."

sometimes a tech or mechanic will tell you that it's important that the relief valve have the correct rating. It's not

.

These valves are very low-precision devices, and their pop- off values are different from each other even in identical filters of the same brand. I have spoken with engineers (not techs) at AMS, Purolator, Mobil, and Champion... In fact, not one of them could quote me a single pop-off valve pressure rating off the tops of their heads.

They did not consider this an interesting or important topic

until I brought it up. When the relief valve is open, the oil is going around the filter element and not being filtered at all. If your relief valve ever opens up you're either using a really cheap oil on a really cold day, or you haven't changed your oil filter since the last time you saw Robert E. Lee."

BAA, YMMV

[Dan M]

..."sometimes a tech or mechanic will tell you that it's important that the relief valve have the correct rating. It's not. These valves are very low-precision devices, and their pop- off values are different from each other even in identical filters of the same brand. I have spoken with engineers (not techs) at AMS, Purolator, Mobil, and Champion... In fact, not one of them could quote me a single pop-off valve pressure rating off the tops of their heads. They did not consider this an interesting or important topic until I brought it up. When the relief valve is open, the oil is going around the filter element and not being filtered at all. If your relief valve ever opens up you're either using a really cheap oil on a really cold day, or you haven't changed your oil filter since the last time you saw Robert E. Lee."

BAA, YMMV

 

 

Gotta agree with Ratch on this one. Since none of us (at least I hope) are running straight 40W year around as I read somewhere in one of these filter threads. If your filter is so plugged as to bypass, you have probably never, or rarely changed it. Most reading this forum probably change oil & filter ahead of schedule, and at the very least, annually. At that rate, these filters are not even close to the end of their service life. (One area that overkill is OK IMHO) Further, just for argument, lets say you're running 20W50 and the temp is below 20F. On start up the thick stuff can't get through the paper and pushes open the relief valve for a couple of passes till it thins enough. What is the difference? Bypassing the filter is just that, it doesn't mean emptying the filter's contents into the oil. Personally, I would be more concerned about having oil that won't flow easily when cold than if it is unfiltered for a few passes.

Bottom line, if the bypass is opening either your filter & oil are so dirty you've probably already done damage, or the oil is so thick it won't flow anyway. Either way, the possible engine wear or damage that results is due to the idiot who allowed the condition, not the filter spec.