oil filters

[dlaing]

Bottom line, if the bypass is opening either your filter & oil are so dirty you've probably already done damage, or the oil is so thick it won't flow anyway. Either way, the possible engine wear or damage that results is due to the idiot who allowed the condition, not the filter spec.

I disagree. I think there is wide cold temperature range where cold oil will flow, but not through the paper.

Bypasses are good, they are there for a reason.

Since you are calling people idiots, smarty pants, what temperature should I not ride at with 10W-50 synthetic?

How about the 20W50 that some are fond of?

We enquiring idiots need to know

[Dan M]

I disagree. I think there is wide cold temperature range where cold oil will flow, but not through the paper.

Bypasses are good, they are there for a reason.

Since you are calling people idiots, smarty pants, what temperature should I not ride at with 10W-50 synthetic?

How about the 20W50 that some are fond of?

We enquiring idiots need to know

 

 

Dave, earlier posters were writing about clogged filters. Yes, I believe if a person, any person, leaves a filter in long enough to clog then that person, whoever they may be, is indeed an idiot. Perhaps I should have phrased it "if the bypass valve is running open" instead of "if the bypass valve is opening"

Read your manual dave, it gives you temperature ranges for motor oils. 10W50 is likely good for far colder start-ups than it gets in SoCal. I don't have my manual in front of me but I'll bet it says 20Wanything should not be used below 10 or 15F. If you read my post, I said that passing thick (cold) oil without filtering until thin enough makes no difference. I never condemned bypass valves.

I typically run 20W50 in my bike and yes, I pay too much for UFI filters, and no they have never loosened, and no, I have no idea when or if my filter is ever in bypass mode on a cold start up. I rarely ride this bike in temps that cold so I doubt much goes by without filtering. If you do take your V11 out on one of those frigid sub freezing SanDiego mornings, you should use the oil your owners manual calls for. That's why they print those things, you know?

Holy shit, suddenly I'm understanding what triggers RH's verbose responses to you.

Any more questions for smartypants?

 

Edit: the Guzzi manual's oil temperature chart recommends 20W oils down to 0C (32F); 10W oils down to about -12C (10F)

[BRENTTODD]

I am not a expert but we use napa filters for 23 years granted on passenger vechicles an never had any problems beside the normal things no threads torn rubber gaskets things like that. Im not buy any means protecting any filter i think there all about the same the differences are too small to really get uptight about . They didnt say wix filer is poor wix makes napa filters. Most of the filter above are auto filters they have to deal with exstream heat and a lot of neglect in respect of regular oil filter changes. Were not beating our bikes like the average joe beats there car. A lot of cars are using low pressure oil pumps with out problems. I even own one. I am not a know it all but oil has came a long way in past years. I Just think were beating a dead horse. Buy what is easy to find, spin that baby on an go have a goood time riding

[Dan M]

I am not a expert but we use napa filters for 23 years granted on passenger vechicles an never had any problems beside the normal things no threads torn rubber gaskets things like that. Im not buy any means protecting any filter i think there all about the same the differences are too small to really get uptight about . They didnt say wix filer is poor wix makes napa filters. Most of the filter above are auto filters they have to deal with exstream heat and a lot of neglect in respect of regular oil filter changes. Were not beating our bikes like the average joe beats there car. A lot of cars are using low pressure oil pumps with out problems. I even own one. I am not a know it all but oil has came a long way in past years. I Just think were beating a dead horse. Buy what is easy to find, spin that baby on an go have a goood time riding

 

I agree, we need a "splitting hairs" emoticon for some of these posts.

Beating a dead horse??? You havn't been around here long, have you? This thread is only 3 pages long.

[BRENTTODD]

Yea your are correct having been around that long just dont get it i guess. I have posted a wix nunber for the a filter i use on my own bike. It is the toyota oil filter that you can go to parts store and pick up right then and there. If its ok for a car running 10w-30 oil all year its good enough for me. I dont see why you would buy something for more money that works the same. I pay $1.85 for a filter guy off the street should be able to buy it for around four bucks. I think that a no brainer spend your money on cool shit like tuning pipes bags ect. Go buy your wife something nice maybe let buy more bikes to drive ourselves nuts with.

 

it just me but i guess i am a just to young to get it (ha ha ha)

[Ryland3210]

I have no idea what RH meant by saying loading is more accurate than contamination. In my view, that's simply a cheap shot playing with semantics. Strange comment from one with an avowed interest in the practical as opposed to the academic. I asked for the pump flow rate because with that information, it could be compared with the max flow rate specified by filters. And it could be calculated under what conditions oil would bypass the filter. What if it turns out a filter bypassed at any RPM above X? No answer from RH. I was leading him back to objectivity. I believe he surmised where I was headed and chose not to go there, or simply couldn't be bothered.

 

Some of us believe synthetic oils are worth the money, other's don't. Some think filter area and bypass relief settings are irrelevant, others want to know how a filter works and effect these factors have on the engine. In both cases, the effects on engine wear are long term.

 

Who ever knows when a filter bypasses? What is known is that the capacity of a filter to capture dirt depends on the type of media and its area. It is clear that bypass settings have an effect on when unfiltered oil bypasses the filter as a function of certain conditions.

 

Even though I accept the premise that Guzzi riders generally change their filters often enough to avoid loading them with contamination enough so they bypass continuously, I believe many want to use the best value (price and performance) filter. It helps to know what the factors are to do that. Ignorance may be bliss, but not for everyone. This is no different than other ways Guzzistis chose to make their bike meet their expectations and style, and there is not a dam'd thing wrong with that.

[dlaing]

Guzzi filters do bypass!!!!!!!

The difference between a 10PSI and a 30PSI bypass is lost oil pressure when you need it!!!!!!!!!

Even a 10PSI bypass valve might fail to bypass enough to prevent healthy oil pressure in cold conditions.

But a 30 PSI bypass valve will greatly increase oil pressure depravation in cold start situations.

I believe anyone who would choose a 30PSI filter over a 10PSI filter and startup and ride the bike with the manual's recommended 15W50 below freezing is an idiot or ignorant.

Or maybe I am the idiot for selecting the lower bypass pressure, letting all that dirty oil get by????

There is no quantified data on this that I could find, but my common sense tells me to go with a filter of about the same bypass rating as the OEM filter.

Guzzi presumably specs the oil viscosity and oil filter to work together at a specific temperature range.

A 30 PSI filter may be fine for Ratchet and me in SoCal, but for sub-zero temperatures with the manual's recommended oil viscosities, I would rather have the correct bypass pressure rated filter.

If you want to agree with Ratchet and presumably Dan that the bypass pressure does not matter, good luck!!!!!!

[Ryland3210]

Question: does the pump's pressure relief valve connect before or after the filter?

 

I'm wondering, because when I did the cold start test to see whether pressure builds faster with high viscosity versus low viscosity oil, as I increased RPM to 2,300, the pressure increased to almost 80 psi, at which point, I backed off the RPM.

 

Conditions were approximately 34 degrees F bike temperature, 15W40 Shell Rotella, Purolator L10168 filter, bypass setting 28-30 psi. The filter had about 1500 miles on it. The oil looked slightly dirty, I think mostly from carbon. My stock engine appears to run a little on the rich side, and still has only about 4,000 miles on it, so I'm not surprised.

 

IF the filter was generating enough back pressure to bypass, AND the pump pressure relief was connected AFTER the filter, that would explain how the pressure in the engine went so high. It indicates that the pressure into the filter would be 28-30 psi higher, or around 109 psi.

 

On the other hand, IF the pump pressure relief valve is BEFORE the filter, then it indicates the filter was still able to flow the cold oil without bypassing, even with the relatively high bypass setting. Results could be different with other filter brands, depending on their design, particularly the element media and area. Less area would create more pressure drop across the element, all other things being equal.

 

So what's the story on the oil delivery circuit?

[Dan M]

Guzzi filters do bypass!!!!!!!

The difference between a 10PSI and a 30PSI bypass is lost oil pressure when you need it!!!!!!!!!

Even a 10PSI bypass valve might fail to bypass enough to prevent healthy oil pressure in cold conditions.

But a 30 PSI bypass valve will greatly increase oil pressure depravation in cold start situations.

I believe anyone who would choose a 30PSI filter over a 10PSI filter and startup and ride the bike with the manual's recommended 15W50 below freezing is an idiot or ignorant.

Or maybe I am the idiot for selecting the lower bypass pressure, letting all that dirty oil get by????

There is no quantified data on this that I could find, but my common sense tells me to go with a filter of about the same bypass rating as the OEM filter.

Guzzi presumably specs the oil viscosity and oil filter to work together at a specific temperature range.

A 30 PSI filter may be fine for Ratchet and me in SoCal, but for sub-zero temperatures with the manual's recommended oil viscosities, I would rather have the correct bypass pressure rated filter.

If you want to agree with Ratchet and presumably Dan that the bypass pressure does not matter, good luck!!!!!!

 

Dave, when did I say that bypass pressure does not matter? I'm the one that says proper viscosity for a given temperature matter. I'm also the one that uses factory authorized UFI filters. (read more closely Dave)

What you are overlooking is on a cold start when the oil is thick the pressure is much greater and it will either go through the paper or past the valve, instantly. The engine will not be starved.

That said, let me ask you this. Is there any evidence or history out there of the ultra reliable Guzzi bottom end failing or experiencing premature wear due to the wrong filter bypass pressure? Or is this some sort of lubrication paranoia?

In all my years as a mechanic (30+) and as a shop owner (26) servicing vehicles at a current rate of over 60 per week, I have never seen engine damage that can be traced to clean oil of the proper viscosity and a clean oil filter, regardless of bypass valve pressure. I service cars that have hundreds of thousands of miles and every winter are subject to not just sub freezing start-ups but sub zero start ups. If a given filter "meets or exceeds manufacturer's specifications" it is good enough for me. If all these brands of filters have a range of bypass pressures and the manufacturer's engineers don't care enough about it to specify then I'd have to say it probably doesn't really matter.

There, now you can quote me.

 

Where is that splitting hairs emoticon?

[Dan M]

Question: does the pump's pressure relief valve connect before or after the filter?

 

I'm wondering, because when I did the cold start test to see whether pressure builds faster with high viscosity versus low viscosity oil, as I increased RPM to 2,300, the pressure increased to almost 80 psi, at which point, I backed off the RPM.

 

Conditions were approximately 34 degrees F bike temperature, 15W40 Shell Rotella, Purolator L10168 filter, bypass setting 28-30 psi. The filter had about 1500 miles on it. The oil looked slightly dirty, I think mostly from carbon. My stock engine appears to run a little on the rich side, and still has only about 4,000 miles on it, so I'm not surprised.

 

IF the filter was generating enough back pressure to bypass, AND the pump pressure relief was connected AFTER the filter, that would explain how the pressure in the engine went so high. It indicates that the pressure into the filter would be 28-30 psi higher, or around 109 psi.

 

On the other hand, IF the pump pressure relief valve is BEFORE the filter, then it indicates the filter was still able to flow the cold oil without bypassing, even with the relatively high bypass setting. Results could be different with other filter brands, depending on their design, particularly the element media and area. Less area would create more pressure drop across the element, all other things being equal.

 

So what's the story on the oil delivery circuit?

 

Ryland, this is interesting. I'd like to look into location of these components but the pump bypass is typically on the pump, so, before the filter. The pressure sending unit's location is typically after the filter so what you are reading is pressure after the filter (Don't you think?) So what is happening between the pump and filter is unknown, but obviously the filter's bypass has to do not with how much pressure the pump puts out but how much the filter's media restricts the flow. In other words, what you are reading is not altered by the filter's bypass valve and there is no way of knowing if the oil is going through the paper or the valve when it gets to the sending port. 80 psi is certianly not unheard of for a pump relief setting, and the pump relief is the only thing that will limit the pressure. The filter does not limit pressure, the valve in the filter just redirects the flow. I'll look for a diagram of the oil circuit

[Ryland3210]

If all these brands of filters have a range of bypass pressures and the manufacturer's engineers don't care enough about it to specify then I'd have to say it probably doesn't really matter.

 

But they do. It's just that some makers make that data available to the public and others don't.

[Guest ratchethack]

OMG, I can

[Ryland3210]

Ryland, this is interesting. I'd like to look into location of these components but the pump bypass is typically on the pump, so, before the filter. The pressure sending unit's location is typically after the filter so what you are reading is pressure after the filter (Don't you think?) So what is happening between the pump and filter is unknown, but obviously the filter's bypass has to do not with how much pressure the pump puts out but how much the filter's media restricts the flow. In other words, what you are reading is not altered by the filter's bypass valve and there is no way of knowing if the oil is going through the paper or the valve when it gets to the sending port. 80 psi is certianly not unheard of for a pump relief setting, and the pump relief is the only thing that will limit the pressure. The filter does not limit pressure, the valve in the filter just redirects the flow. I'll look for a diagram of the oil circuit

 

Yes, I do think the pressure sender's location is after the filter.

In the case of my adapter, which replaces the banjo bolt on the feed to the heads, there is no doubt about that.

 

If the pressure drop across the filter element is above the bypass relief setting the pressure on the filter's outlet side will be reduced by the bypass relief setting, relative to the inlet.

 

On cars I have worked on I have the same experience as you do. The pump relief has always been before the filter, but are you certain the pump relief is before the filter on this engine? I couldn't tell when I had the sump apart earlier this week-wish I had taken a closer look then. It could work either way. If the pump relief is after the filter, it would be very difficult to tell what the filter's pressure drop was or whether it was bypassing at high RPM. At low RPM, it would be hard to tell the difference between filter pressure drop and the lower oil pressure due to the lower pump flow rate.

 

I think it's an advantage to have the pump relief after the filter, so long as the filter has a built-in bypass, which these do. More oil delivered to the engine, instead of back to the sump, and more consistent pressure over the life of the filter, or differences among brands, as it compensates for filter restriction.

 

Hope you find the oil circuit diagram. A drawing of the pump/relief/filter assembly would clear up any doubts.

 

[Ryland3210]

Please ride with a happy face and have no concerns about oil filter bypass, my friends.

 

I knew you would be back. Ratchethack, you have been kind enough to provide prolific, although somewhat redundant, practical advice. However, if you don't mind, give it a rest. I'd like to please explore and learn a little more about how filters interact with this particular engine, and stick to the technical analysis, even if, in your opinion, they have no practical value. The way to tell if speculation is valid is through objective analysis. It doesn't enlighten to say believe what I say, stop asking questions. I don't believe any of this will create paranoia among our readers. Don't worry so much.

 

People convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still.

[Skeeve]

If you do take your V11 out on one of those frigid sub freezing SanDiego mornings, you should use the oil your owners manual calls for. That's why they print those things, you know?

 

What things? You mean your Guzzi came w/ an owner's manual? Lucky git!.. FYI, not all new Guzzis came w/ one. Part of the "exotic Italian mystique" don'cha know...