oil filters

[Guest ratchethack]

Que Surprise! I disagree.

Now there's a shock. . .

. . .Maybe Guzzis are prone to pressure regulation issues.

. . . [sigh] . . .

 

And for all paranoiacs, maybe the sky is falling. . .

 

Got your urethane cush drive through R&D yet, Dave?

[dlaing]

Now there's a shock. . .

 

. . . [sigh] . . .

 

And for all paranoiacs, maybe the sky is falling. . .

 

Got your urethane cush drive through R&D yet, Dave?

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Ryland3210]

"If the filter has been installed on the tight side, the

gasket may not blow out and the lockseam will unwind as the pressure continues to

rise."

Sound familiar?!? Maybe Guzzis are prone to pressure regulation issues.

Now I really want Ryland to get together an oil pressure gauge kit!

 

Hi Dave,

I think you know about my kit for the handlebar riser type Sports shown on the "pressure gauge adapted" thread. I'm now making one up for one of the clip on type Sports.

Ryland.

[dlaing]

Thanks for reminding me about that.

In that thread, you had taken some readings:

One of the members and I have been discussing how fast oil pressure builds on cold starts with 15W40 oil. I thought I would share the results with everyone.

 

I left my beloved bike out in the cold last night, knowing it was going to dip below freezing. There was still frost on the grass and the air temperature was 34 F. There was condensation on the bike, so I knew it was good and cold.

 

While I was cranking to get it started, pressure started to build almost instantly. Within 3 seconds of relatively slow cranking, before the engine even sputtered, pressure was up to 20 psi and climbing fast. I estimate the engine was turned over 10 revolutions at most, by which time it reached 40, and still kept climbing. When it started, it jumped to 65. at 2000 RPM, it was at 80 psi, which appeared to be the relief valve's effective limit at this low an oil temperature. Normally it stays around 50-60 when fully warmed up, depending on ambient temperature.

 

Conditions are my '04 Cafe Sport with about 4000 miles, Purolator L10241 filter, 15W40 Shell Rotella oil.

 

Evidently the anti drainback valve in this filter does its job (not that other filters aren't just as good in this respect, but this is the only one I have tested this way.

 

From now on, I plan on taking advantage of this. My bike does not like to start unless I give it some throttle, even with the "choke" on full. I now know I can deliberately leave the choke off and crank until I see pressure building, because it happens quickly enough to not drain the battery much. Then use the normal starting method, knowing oil will be pressurized the instant she fires up. I used to do the same thing when I ran a boat with twin 454's, but it would take a lot longer to build pressure than this. I'm more and more happy to have this gauge. I keep learning more and more about how this engine runs, so I can protect it for the long haul.

I did not realize that cold idle pressures were so strong.

Since this is the case, I can conclude that my concern over too high of a bypass pressure is likely unwarranted. Clearly cold oil at idle will bypass even a 30PSI filter.

The pump only has trouble generating pressure at high temperatures.

So, the only possible threat to too high of a bypass pressure would be a clogged filter.

I can't imagine a filter getting that clogged in under 6000 miles with synthetic oil.

I used to run Castrol GTX(S) in my V65 and that would build up sludge in the pan, and I would suppose in the filter, too. But everytime I pull the pan on my V11, it does not pass a white glove test, but it is close to passing.

I wonder how long we can use the filters?

12,000 miles? 18,000 miles?

With the price of the best oils, it is worth changing the filter,just to ensure a more complete oil change. Still, I am curious how long it would take to clog a filter with a 30PSI bypass to the degree that it would be a problem.

 

But getting back to the self changing oil filter issue, Ryland measured 80PSI with 15W40 at about 0

[Ryland3210]

The cause and effect relationship could also be that the reason the oil is so clean when you change it is that the filter is doing a good job of removing the contaminants. So how does one know if the filter should be changed every time oil is changed or not? Tests done by the SAE quite some years ago, when engines produced a lot more contamination showed that the wear rate started to increase substantially after 3,000 miles, but that better filtration was obtained by changing filters every 6,000. Consistent with that, my '98 Camaro's owners manual recommended exactly that, 30 years later.

 

In the industrial hydraulic systems I've designed since 1984, we use non-bypass, 3,000 psi, 3 micron absolute filters. These machines are expected to last at least 10 years between rebuilds, running at full power. Some are used 3 shifts/day, so at about 6,000 hours/year, that amounts to 60,000 hours. In comparison, an automobile which averages 40 mph runs for only 4,000 hours to travel 160,000 miles. For the vast majority of that time, it is only using a fraction of its rated horsepower. I have learned a lot about oil contamination and filtration along the way.

 

The pressure drop across these filters stays fairly constant, at around 10-15 psi, until contamination reaches about 80% of the filter's capacity, then rises quite fast to total blockage at the system pressure, typically 1800 psi. These filters come with a differential pressure sensor to indicated when it's time to change the element. So the scientific way to know if your filter needs changing is to monitor the pressure drop. That would require an additional pressure sensor on the Guzzi before the filter, and a bypass pressure relief setting higher than the normal pressure drop across the filter.

 

It would be neat if an aftermarket filter manufacturer would come out with a differential indicator for automotive filters. They could charge more for it, because it would need changing much less often. If it were up to me, we would still be changing just the element, like on high pressure industrial systems and my '57 Ford. Back then, the elements also had several times the dirt collection capacity as the disposables of today for the same applications. Unfortunately for Guzzi's with internal filters, a delta P indicator on the filter is problematic.

 

Some day, I may install a second gauge to monitor filter inlet pressure, just to learn more about how this engine works and then be able to save time and money changing filters more often than necessary, and contribute a little less garbage to the environment. In the mean time, I'll stick with 3,000 mile oil changes, filter every other time.

[Guest ratchethack]

Assuming the pressure relief valve is after the filter, the pressure at the filter could be much greater.

Um, No . . . no, I'm afraid not. Not unless you consider the difference between any bypass relief pressure and the pressure differential across the filter media on any commercially available filter for a Guzzi "much greater", in the practical sense of amounting to anything like an oil starvation problem to the engine bearings. . . which I surely DO NOT, nor clearly do any of the qualified sources I've provided here, nor clearly do any of the Pro's who've weighed in here. . . .

 

. . . [sigh] . . . Regardless of which side of the filter the PRV is plumbed-in, any of the commercially available filter bypass relief pressures encountered will be insignificant to the performance and operation of the V11 motor under any conditions of operation AND under any normal range of viscosity of oil used, AND under any range of temperatures normally encountered on ANY continent where Guzzi's are ridden (on THIS planet). . . . [sigh, Part II] . . .

. . .But getting back to the self changing oil filter issue. . .

HHEEEEEEEFFFFTTTT?!?! Where do I get one o' these?!

 

According to the PDF that Ratchet provided, a tightly installed filter should deform before it unscrews. So, if your filter unscrews by itself, that would be something to check for, assuming at that point you are not about throw the bike over a cliff, and the engine is not damaged, or you are going to repair it.

Dave, the Tech Service Bulletin I posted a link to previously makes no reference to filters unscrewing. As explained in the TSB, the reference to the lockseam "unwinding" pertains to what happens when a filter is over-pressurized, and the seam (which only exists on larger filters, not on any of those used on V11's, as far as I know, since they're seamless), known as a lockseam, "unwinds" when the filter canister bursts. The sheet metal edges joined in such a seam are folded at the edges, or "wound" around each other and interlocked, and typically soldered or brazed to form the joint.

[dlaing]

Um, No . . . no, I'm afraid not. Not unless you consider the difference between any bypass relief pressure and the pressure differential across the filter media on any commercially available filter for a Guzzi "much greater", in the practical sense of amounting to anything like an oil starvation problem to the engine bearings. . . which I surely DO NOT, nor clearly do any of the qualified sources I've provided here, nor clearly do any of the Pro's who've weighed in here. . . . <_>

 

. . . [sigh] . . . Regardless of which side of the filter the PRV is plumbed-in, any of the commercially available filter bypass relief pressures encountered will be insignificant to the performance and operation of the V11 motor under any conditions of operation AND under any normal range of viscosity of oil used, AND under any range of temperatures normally encountered on ANY continent where Guzzi's are ridden (on THIS planet). . . . [sigh, Part II] . . .

 

HHEEEEEEEFFFFTTTT?!?! Where do I get one o' these?!

 

 

Dave, the Tech Service Bulletin I posted a link to previously makes no reference to filters unscrewing. As explained in the TSB, the reference to the lockseam "unwinding" pertains to what happens when a filter is over-pressurized, and the seam (which only exists on larger filters, not on any of those used on V11's, as far as I know, since they're seamless), known as a lockseam, "unwinds" when the filter canister bursts. The sheet metal edges joined in such a seam are folded at the edges, or "wound" around each other and interlocked, and typically soldered or brazed to form the joint.

I misinterpreted when I read 'unwind', thanks for the clarification. I like you more when you explain something clearly rather than ranting about paranoia.

What makes you think a jammed PRV won't cause filter problems on a Guzzi?

Then why do we even need a PRV?

What makes you think the side the PRV is on, won't effect what pressures the filter sees?

If the PRV fails to open completely, the pressure before the PRV will be greater than after the PRV.

I would rather have the filter after the PRV.

Do you need 'proof' that if the PRV fails to open completely, the pressure before the PRV will be greater than after the PRV?

This may all be academic as I have never heard of a Guzzi filter exploding, but the more likely issue is how much oil is being pushed through the filter.

If the filter is before the PRV, a lot more oil will flow through the filter and filter may spend a lot of time in bypass mode.

If the filter is after the PRV, the excess oil is bypassed back to the sump by the PRV, so less oil flows through the filter (and its bypass) and the filter can then do its job.

[Ryland3210]

I misinterpreted when I read 'unwind', thanks for the clarification. I like you more when you explain something clearly rather than ranting about paranoia.

What makes you think a jammed PRV won't cause filter problems on a Guzzi?

Then why do we even need a PRV?

What makes you think the side the PRV is on, won't effect what pressures the filter sees?

If the PRV fails to open completely, the pressure before the PRV will be greater than after the PRV.

I would rather have the filter after the PRV.

Do you need 'proof' that if the PRV fails to open completely, the pressure before the PRV will be greater than after the PRV?

This may all be academic as I have never heard of a Guzzi filter exploding, but the more likely issue is how much oil is being pushed through the filter.

If the filter is before the PRV, a lot more oil will flow through the filter and filter may spend a lot of time in bypass mode.

If the filter is after the PRV, the excess oil is bypassed back to the sump by the PRV, so less oil flows through the filter (and its bypass) and the filter can then do its job.

 

Hi Dave,

The PRV is a shunt from the pressured oil supply to the sump, so it's not as if the pressure in the system is greater before or after the PRV. Whether the PRV is connected to the inlet or outlet side of the filter affects the pressure on the inlet side to the extent of the pressure drop in the filter, and it affects the pressure to the oil galleries to the same extent.

Most times, PRV's stick open, which reduces pressure. It is unlikely they jam closed, unless possibly a bike has been sitting so long it has stuck shut due to corrosion. Even then, the fixed displacement pump can build very high pressure until the valve opens. If it is sticky and stays open, or the spring is broken, then it won't close down as it should to regulate pressure. Sorry to go over stuff you probably know already, but my attention was grabbed by the "pressure

before the PRV will be greater than after the PRV" phrase.

 

As for whether it's better for the PRV to be before or after the filter: Although it's true, as you say, that more oil flows through the filter if it's after, that can be considered a good thing in terms of filtering the oil more effectively. Even when it is bypassing, until the filter is totally clogged, it still has oil flowing through the element since the element and bypass relief valve are in parallel. Moreover, when the higher flow creates more pressure drop, the flow through the element increases, thereby increasing its rate of trapping contaminents. So if the goal is for the filter to collect contaminents as efficiently as possible, the PRV should be after the filter. That also has the beneficial effect of increasing the pressure to the engine's bearings by the pressure drop across the filter, whenever the pump has the capacity.

[Guest ratchethack]

What makes you think a jammed PRV won't cause filter problems on a Guzzi?

. . .

What makes you think the side the PRV is on, won't effect what pressures the filter sees?

. . . [sigh] . . . Dave. Please read wot you're responding to more calmly and carefully. Hint: The actual words I've used in my posts above have meaning considerably outside of your, um, loose interpretation here. I think you'll find that I've neither said, nor implied that I think anything of the sort. I refuse to repeat again what I've already repeated so many times. . . [sigh] . . .

I would rather have the filter after the PRV.

Wonderful, Dave. Should it be credibly determined that your Guzzi isn't plumbed to your preferences, would you then become an advocate here for horrifically complex and elaborate custom machine work to re-plumb the stock Guzzi PRV assembly -- and then not do it yourself, per your established pattern?!?! If so, I'm sure you'll feel free to add this to your growing collection of perpetual Guzzi fantasies, along with your infamous urethane cush drive, your "no problem" (according to Eraldo Ferracci) 140 hp V11, and of course, your most infamous and elusive, never-seen-in-captivity, "V11 Hayabusa Eater" (that'd be any of several sub-species previously dreamed-up by yourself -- the ones without a V11 motor, the ones without a V11 chassis -- and of course, the most fantastic sub-species of all -- the ones without either). . .

Do you need 'proof' that if the PRV fails to open completely, the pressure before the PRV will be greater than after the PRV?

Um, no Dave. No, such a wild and unfounded scenario, wrapped up and tied with a pretty bow of abject speculation, would be utter and complete nonsense!!

 

I'd start with any indications -- any credible accounts, any time, anywhere on THIS planet -- that there's ever been any significant number of cases of PRVs failing to open completely (PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE this with failure to close! That'd be a horse of a completely different hue, and -- God help us -- let's not open another Pandora's box here, since there's even LESS of a need than any of this demented folly so far! ) as designed on a Guzzi. Based on this, I'd begin any consideration of the actual, practical side of vital oil delivery to the motor there -- but admittedly, that's just me. . .

This may all be academic as I have never heard of a Guzzi filter exploding, but the more likely issue is how much oil is being pushed through the filter.

Dave, I don't mean to get personal here, and your priorities are your business. But may I suggest that there are undoubtedly thousands upon thousands of far better engineering minds than yours or mine, practical engine design experts, and proven engine lubrication designs than either you, me, or most anyone who ever posted here can comprehend. Not only have all aspects of engine oil delivery evolution been far far down these roads (and many many others) countless times for upwards of a century now, without many (if any) "revolutionary" changes, since the days of "total loss" oiling. But most of the very best, well-proven of 'em all have culminated in the practically "foolproof" design that's in your Guzzi. Might I also suggest that no one hereabouts, with the possible exception in this case of Pete, who interestingly enough, has actually done it (if adding a Roper plate, as so many others have done before, is considered "an improvement") is likely to match the state of this engineering as it exists in the V11 single-handedly -- let alone trump it on this Forum?! Is it 100% infallible? Certainly not -- but what mechanical device is??!!

 

The basic design concept of the Guzzi lubrication system, along with countless others based on identical principles, has been incrementally improved upon and refined for something over a hundred years, Dave! The Roper plate (thanks again, Pete!) has evidently taken the only known, demonstrable (with significant evidence), remaining flaw in the enitre system out of consideration. Do you now presume that today, you have yet a another superior idea? Based on what evidence, and better yet -- solving what problem??!! Don't you have more important things to be concerned about than reverse-engineering a well-proven design, second-guessing it, and dreaming up disaster scenarios that no one's ever heard of, and more'n likely never will?

 

Enquiring minds, enraptured in deliberate suspension of disbelief (well, you know. . .)

[Dan M]

I may have said this before but, my favorite part of this whole filtered oil, unfiltered oil, thick oil, thin oil, pressure relief valve, bypass valve, where to put the valve, cold oil pressure, hot oil pressure, clogged oil filter, and now exploding oil filter debate is, AFAIK the Guzzi has no oiling problems. That is of course, other than the ones caused by users/installers. As with any engine the parts most susceptible to insufficient oiling are the plain bearings. If the oil is kept reasonably clean and resaonably full, the bottom ends of these engines will last and last.

So why do we need to re-engineer this?!?!?

[Guest ratchethack]

I may have said this before but . . .

See wot happens, Dan? By the time we've noticed that we're repeating ourselves, the horse is outta the barn! My friend, I'm afraid the window of opportunity (if such a thing ever existed in the first place!) for throwing a fence around this increasingly familiar runaway speculation train has opened and closed long ago, and there ain't no stoppin' it now. . .

[Ryland3210]

I may have said this before but, my favorite part of this whole filtered oil, unfiltered oil, thick oil, thin oil, pressure relief valve, bypass valve, where to put the valve, cold oil pressure, hot oil pressure, clogged oil filter, and now exploding oil filter debate is, AFAIK the Guzzi has no oiling problems. That is of course, other than the ones caused by users/installers. As with any engine the parts most susceptible to insufficient oiling are the plain bearings. If the oil is kept reasonably clean and resaonably full, the bottom ends of these engines will last and last.

So why do we need to re-engineer this?!?!?

 

Why? Because it's entertaining and satisfies the minds of the curious. Hopefully along the way, educational for the interested novice. I make a contribution when a question is asked I can answer, or a misconception appears I can correct because it's in my field.

 

Of course, you're right on the practical side, Dan, but I don't think we are re-engineering this, just understanding it. Frankly, the only thing left for me to wonder about before this all started was simply, where in the circuit the PRV is located. Today, I received my copy of Guzziology 6.0. According to its respected author, the PRV is located after the filter. I'm glad to hear that for reasons expressed above. That being the case, I'm satisfied the 12-15 psi bypass relief pressure of the UFI and Purolator filters is in the right range for this engine. No further comment from me is required, unless it reverts back to when a question is asked which I can answer, or a misconception appears which I can correct because it's in my field. That's how I want to contribute when I can. I'm not that great at entertaining, at least not in writing

[Guest ratchethack]

Since what comes first, the chicken or the egg -- err, I mean the PRV or the filter -- has no practical significance wotsoever as far as I'm concerned, I haven't had enough interest to crack my copy of Richardson's tome on this topic . . . until just now.

 

I was certain you were correct soon's I saw your post with ref. to Guzziology, John.

 

Seems Pete's post from 'way back when' was also correct, and you should've taken me up on my bet!

 

Here's the direct quote from my copy, p. 5-11 (Guzziology, ver. 5.3):

 

...oil is forced from the pump through the middle path to the outside of the filter, through the filter, and out the center of the filter. From the filter, the oil travels to a thermostatic valve. The valve directs cool oil to the right hole and hot oil to the cooler then to the right hole. A copper pipe takes half the oil to the rear of the engine where it passes by a pressure relief valve before going on to the rear main and cam bearings.

Now I find Richardson's generally an easy read, and his descriptions are usually very clear. This one, however, seems. . . well, a just mite cryptic. Not that he's at all incorrect. . . I'm sure he's spot-on, as usual, of course.

 

He goes on to say that he himself has found the oil path of the V11 difficult to track, and offers a guess or two about it. He provides a symbolic diagram that I find impossible to comprehend, another set of three such diagrams on the next page that're somewhat more comprehensible, and then a more true-to-life exploded view drawing with oil path delineated with arrows (in black & white of course -- none too clear), and even this is more'n a tad cryptic, IMHO -- and I usually follow this kinda stuff pretty easily. . .

 

In any case, Dave Laing evidently doesn't get his wish after all, which will undoubtedly . . . [sigh] . . . open up speculation and conjecture anew of untold, fathomless nature. . . [sigh] . . . but before we embark on another perilous seven-sea voyage, headed straight for the roaring 40's in a leaky garbage scow, sailing before a force 5 gale and the whole lot o' this here crew delirious with scurvy, dysentery, and. . . uh, wotever. . . , let me first offer (again) my most earnest plea that any thoughts of a MODIFICATION involving dissecting the PRV assembly with hopes of cobbling it back together in anything resembling safe working order with the egg before the chicken -- err, I mean the PRV before the filter -- are NOT to be taken seriously, Dave!! Banish the thought early and often! Drink heavily! Take multiple heavy sedatives! Get a lobotomy, if this is wot it takes to stop y'erself -- not from actually doing it, understand -- (we all know this won't happen, even you) -- but from speculating here about all the many splendored imaginary virtues of doing it, along with the frightfully dark, impossibly painful, nightmarish, and abstract methods of such madness -- as if actually doing it were your intention!!! . . . Zoot, alors!

 

-- Just trying to nip yet another demonic possession in the bud, y'unnerstan'. . . Y'all 'r more'n welcome.

 

Ahem. Now then. I put the following question to anyone and everyone still interested, since none o' what I've read above in this thread, nor in Guzziology answers this one anything within light-years o' my satisfaction:

 

Under the conditions that virtually all V11's are ridden, what possible practical difference WHATSOEVER does the knowledge of what comes first -- the PRV or the filter -- mean to any Guzzista -- any V11, any continent, any temperature, any oil, and any known oil filter that fits and is known to work as designed and independently tested to industry standards??

 

Enquiring minds . . . well, I'm just a-dyin' to know now! -- Yep, even though it's strictly academic!!

 

. . . pulls up chair, opens beer, prepares to receive 500-level lesson in Advanced Creative Writing . . .

[Ryland3210]

As far as practical significance goes, it is a question of whether the clearly quantifyable effect which PRV location has on flow rate through the filter and pressure delivered to the engine effects engine wear.

 

The alternative Guzzi chose provides a bit more margin of safety by increasing the filtering flow rate and pressure to the engine when pump flow is sufficient. This alternative is my preference as well. How much that effects engine wear also depends on how well the engine oil quality and quantity is maintained. I have nothing more to add on the subject.

 

What's next?

[Guest ratchethack]

As far as practical significance goes, it is a question of whether the clearly quantifyable effect which PRV location has on flow rate through the filter and pressure delivered to the engine effects engine wear.

 

The alternative Guzzi chose provides a bit more margin of safety by increasing the filtering flow rate and pressure to the engine when pump flow is sufficient. This alternative is my preference as well. How much that effects engine wear also depends on how well the engine oil quality and quantity is maintained. I have nothing more to add on the subject.

Hm. A margin of safety. Whilst I agree in principle, I hope you can accept a respectful disagreement, John, where one will not successfully persuade the other? Flow rate through the filter being quite a leap secondary to pressure considerations at the bearings, thus the necessity of the PRV, temp and viscosity will vary directly -- in other words, flow rate through the filter is widely variable, and under control of the PRV according to temperature. As when a filter bypasses, oil shunted back into the sump before or after the filter is quite inconsequential. It's not as if contaminated oil suddenly gets fed to bearings -- mixtures dilute by percentages of course, but a portion of that same oil just made a pass through the filter on it's last circuit. So I again, find that I cannot fully agree with your assessment for any significant practical purposes -- but of course, as I b'lieve you infer, the differences WRT chicken before egg, err, PRV before filter, are unquantifiable to the point of inconsequential . . . It makes no discernable difference wotsoever. . .

 

Accordingly, the only response that comes to mind at this point comes from South o' the border, and that is this:

 

EEEEEHOLAY!

 

No one I know (here next to the border, and even in Old Mehico) seems to know exactly wot this means (even in Spanish), but it's been rumored with some err, emphasis -- particularly in some quarters in the barrio and elsewhere in places that er, border on the unmentionable -- that the extract of blue agave is somehow mysteriously involved. . .

 

What's next?

I'm sure Dave's warming up in the bullpen, even as we post. Um, I can hardly wait. . . [sigh] . . .

 

No mas. Buenas noches, mi compadre.