oil filters

[dlaing]

As far as practical significance goes, it is a question of whether the clearly quantifyable effect which PRV location has on flow rate through the filter and pressure delivered to the engine effects engine wear.

 

The alternative Guzzi chose provides a bit more margin of safety by increasing the filtering flow rate and pressure to the engine when pump flow is sufficient. This alternative is my preference as well. How much that effects engine wear also depends on how well the engine oil quality and quantity is maintained. I have nothing more to add on the subject.

 

What's next?

I totally agree and retract the statement preferring the filter after the PRV.

But I stand by the assertion that if the filter is after the PRV the pressure will be lower in the filter if the PRV only partially opens.

Thanks for being enlightening rather than treating me like an donkey.

I was hypnotized by Ratchet's PDF's warnings of doom and disaster, as if filters explode anywhere near to the degree that oil pressure is lost for other reasons.

Clearly the likelihood of too low pressure rather than too high pressure is what we should be concerned with.

FWIW, I just found more evidence contradicting Guzziology and Pete Roper,

The lubrication system found in Guzzi's current engine is typical standard automotive practice. Oil is drawn from a reservoir, motivated through a positive displacement pump, forced through a line with a parallel pressure-relief path available, then through a filter with internal relief valve, and then on to the engine proper. Return oil drains by gravity back to the reservoir where the process starts all over again.

http://www.mgnoc.com/article_oil_filters_revisited.html

(I think Ratchet cited that article earlier, why did we not pick up on what he said then?)

In the article the author, George Nehls, P.E., ponders ideal filter bypass pressure, weighing the value of high pressure rated valve's more constant filtration vs. a low pressure rated valve's more pressure availability. His conclusion, trust only the UFI or a filter that meets the same specs.

 

Nobody is suggesting going through the trouble of re-plumbing, but knowing which side of the PRV the filter is on further encourages me not to use a Fram cardboard filter, and it might help select a filter with the proper bypass pressure rating, if only we knew exactly what is happening.

If Guzzi's have a history of low oil pressure we might choose a slightly lower bypass pressure.

If Guzzi's have a history of damage from contamination, we might choose a slightly higher bypass pressure.

The only problems that I have heard discussed on the forum are filters that come undone and lost oil pressure due to starvation of the reservoir during uphill acceleration or wheelies. ((helicopter (wheelieman) jim's engine is still going, right?))

0W60 synthetic might be able to go with a higher bypass pressure than straight 30W dino-tang.

Mild weather might also favor a higher bypass pressure.

All we have to go on is Guzzi's recommendations, and maybe a table of cross-refs.

 

Buenos Noches, Herr Hatchet.

 

BTW, here is a nice photo.

The Toyota filter is a YDDZ3 probably made by Nippondenso.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/attachment.php?att...mp;d=1172165776

Tag is dynamic so you may have to copy and paste...

From

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbth...true#Post876877

[Ryland3210]

So you still have doubts about where the PRV is tapped in? Guzziology and Pete Roper vs. MGNOC, hmmm.

It would not be terribly risky or difficult to disassemble the manifold to settle this question. Keeping it clean is the main issue. Guzziology's diagrams are consistent with its wording, showing the PRV after the filter. Guzziology shows several diagrams of different generations. The ones that show filters all have the PRV after. The flow diagram also looks like that's how the oil flows, but it is ambiguous.

 

Perhaps the difference is the MGNOC article's adjective "current". I haven't read the article, but is it possible they are speaking of changes post Guzziology 6.0, and is speaking of the latest models?

 

I hope Pete Roper takes the time to inspect his engine and responds to my request. I just don't feel like doing it just now, having just installed his plate, and with lots of things to do.

[dlaing]

So you still have doubts about where the PRV is tapped in? Guzziology and Pete Roper vs. MGNOC, hmmm.

I preceded the quote with a FWIW, but yah I think there might be about a one in a thousand chance that Roper and Richardson are wrong.

My guess is that Nehls assumed, but yes, there is a very small chance (IMHO) that he is correct and Ratchet was right.

I stumbled on the quote and it would have been negligent of me to withhold the information, even if it is likely wrong.

[Ryland3210]

I preceded the quote with a FWIW, but yah I think there might be about a one in a thousand chance that Roper and Richardson are wrong.

My guess is that Nehls assumed, but yes, there is a very small chance (IMHO) that he is correct and Ratchet was right.

I stumbled on the quote and it would have been negligent of me to withhold the information, even if it is likely wrong.

 

You did the right thing. Better to resolve it. I sent another request last night to Pete to please inspect his engine.

[raz]

This is a great thread, and probably worth somebody bumping so that Pete can enlighten us a little more.

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...466&hl=suck

Yeah it's great. I searched the forums and found out a lot more he has written on the subject. Good stuff. He mentions the PRV is after the filter several times FWIW.

 

Also, I found my all-time-favourite Roper story:

(...) The reason why the *main*drain holes in the sheet are at the left hand front is because this is where the oil tends to end up as it comes off the crank. How do I know? Well several years ago, when I first saw one of Bruno Scola's plates I wondered about this. So I took the sump of an 850T and plumbed a pick-up hose onto the sump pick up after removing the stariner and dropped it into a 20 litre oil drum. I then lay on my side beside the bike with a timing strobe hooked up to one of the spark plugs and got a mate to start the engine and give it a rev while I lay beside it and a.) Got covered in oil. and b.) used the strobe to see where the oil was going. No, not particularly sophisticated and VERY messy but it DID show that the front left hand corner was where a LOT of the oil ended up Hence the holes! (...)

Awesome!

[Ryland3210]

Yeah it's great. I searched the forums and found out a lot more he has written on the subject. Good stuff. He mentions the PRV is after the filter several times FWIW.

 

Also, I found my all-time-favourite Roper story:

 

Awesome!

 

I remember reading this also, and it built my confidence in Pete's statements having a sound basis. My kinda' guy. I tested the oil starvation theory with my handy dandy pressure gauge to prove it to myself, and immediately bought one of his plates without having to worry about oil getting back to the sump through it.

 

I expect I'll soon be able to get the bike on the road and do the "after" test.

[pete roper]

I remember reading this also, and it built my confidence in Pete's statements having a sound basis. My kinda' guy. I tested the oil starvation theory with my handy dandy pressure gauge to prove it to myself, and immediately bought one of his plates without having to worry about oil getting back to the sump through it.

 

I expect I'll soon be able to get the bike on the road and do the "after" test.

 

In the absence of a super hi-tech fibreoptic set-up and the sort of facilities that Honda has this is the way poor plebs like us have to work things out. The reasons I made the plates is because I saw a real need for them as the oil starvation problem on the broad sump engines really IS an issue. Even major manufacturers and tuning shops will do stuff that would make the average buyer weep if they saw it. there have been some pics posted recently of the new *V engine beings tested on a brake and the whole thig looks absolutely horrid! But that's how stuff is worked out. It's not all serious looking men in white coats with slide-rules in their pockets. It's people destruction testing shit and getting covered in filth! Even in Japan! Don't kid yourselves!

 

Incidentally several people have tried to contact me recently about plates and I haven't responed. I apologise. I've simply been too busy, not only with work but also with my Mum in Law who has dementia and my youngest son who is giving us shit at the moment.

 

I do still have a couple of 'Broad Sump' plates lying about I think and if people wnat to hector and nag me I will try and get them out. I'll alsio do another run if the demand is there but the last lot the price of material had gone through the roof so the price will probably be a bit higher than it was.

 

I'm currently in LA rebuilding some bikes for mates but I'll be back in Oz in a couple of weeks time. feel free to nag me then.

 

Pete

[pete roper]

Oh, finally. On the question of the location of the OPRV it is definitely after the filter on the Tonti frame sump models, it's in the delivery gallery to the rear main bearing. That being the case I'm pretty much certain it will be located in the same part of the system on the broad sump bikes. If someone can put up a pic of the underside of the motor with the sump off it should be obvious. If you can search back to Greg's sloppage plate installation instructions it will probably show it?

 

Pete

[Greg Field]

The releif valves in all Guzzi systems I have seen are after the filter.

[Ryland3210]

The releif valves in all Guzzi systems I have seen are after the filter.

 

Greg,

 

Where the heck have you been? We've been ruminating over this forever!

Thanks for clearing up the last spec of doubt on this question.

 

The Guzziology arrived. Thanks much.

[mike wilson]

To drag this thread up from the dusty confines of internet history:

 

Modern retailers do not reference oil filters by type code.  Their computer stock search engines will only allow input of Manufacturer/model/year.  The thought of dragging the average shop droid through the process to get hold of some obscure Italian bike manufacturer ("A Moto Wotti?") is not something i relish.  I am sure that the spin-on filters will also be used by some Italian (and other) car and I know that filter manufacturers used to list vehicle fitments on the packaging.  Does anyone know what cars the usual V11 spin-on fits?  I seem to remember that the big block used the same filter as the mid 70s Fiat 128.  But I wouldn't bet my big ends on it.

[Chuck]

It's the same filter as my 2 liter Ford Transit Connect. The Turkish version. I run the Bosch 3330 in it and big block Guzzis.

Here's what cross references.

 Purolator PL14476 / PL14477

Mobil1 M1-102
Bosch 3330
Walmart Supertech ST4967 / 4386
AMSOil SMF 133/134/135
Baldwin B33 / B37
Fram PH4967
Hastings LF410 / LF 413
NAPA 1394
Purolator ML16822

[docc]

WIX application chart does not bring up the 51215 for me on the Ford 2.0 Transit Connect.

 

Earlier, I searched a bunch of Fords and Mazdas to find the 51215, but it never came up.

 

Did I say ?

[Chuck]

WIX application chart does not bring up the 51215 for me on the Ford 2.0 Transit Connect.

 

Earlier, I searched a bunch of Fords and Mazdas to find the 51215, but it never came up.

 

Did I say ?

I don't think I posted a crossover with the Wix..  

[docc]

 

WIX application chart does not bring up the 51215 for me on the Ford 2.0 Transit Connect.

 

Earlier, I searched a bunch of Fords and Mazdas to find the 51215, but it never came up.

 

Did I say ?

I don't think I posted a crossover with the Wix..  

 

True, that.

 

What year range Ford Transit Connect have the same oil filter that fits the V11?