WM 1.6 Eprom dump

[luhbo]

...

 

With this system, ie 2d, (ie two reference points on a pre-written map) you will never get even close to ideal ignition timings. A very rough generalisation will tell you that there are two main issues that conspire to keep you in the dark.......

 

Regards,

 

Phil A.

 

Aren't you one of the guys who's taking money from his customers for stuff that youself call "not even close to ideal"? Based on hours of obviously useless dyno time?

 

Hubert

[dlaing]

Didn't you find his documentation helpfull, lately?

 

Look at the single maps. Pulsewidth is the sum of all of them. No multiplying of factors, so no % mistakes or arithmetical overcompensation. This way also negative compensation numbers are possible.

 

Hubert

I have not read the latest documentation, but I noticed he is finally advertising the Guzzi version, but still without the diagnostic....

Are you sure all the maps refer to pulsewidths and not percentile modification of pulsewidths?

So, if the barometric correction is -50 it subtracts 50 at idle and at WOT near redline?

That would create major problems, well beyond that of no compensation for dead time, right?

[luhbo]

...

Are you sure all the maps refer to pulsewidths and not percentile modification of pulsewidths?

So, if the barometric correction is -50 it subtracts 50 at idle and at WOT near redline?

That would create major problems, well beyond that of no compensation for dead time, right?

 

I can see your point. Anyway, that's what I've been told.

 

The dead time problem is addressed in the Weber ecu.

[raz]

Aren't you one of the guys who's taking money from his customers for stuff that youself call "not even close to ideal"? Based on hours of obviously useless dyno time?

Not ideal does not equal to (or even approach) useless, and no combustion engine has ever been built that was remotely close to ideal. I would be much more concerned if he stated his map was ideal. I'm gonna try Phil's map out next spring, open loop first and then closed loop. I'm hoping his ignition timing map is very good.

[raz]

With this system, ie 2d, (ie two reference points on a pre-written map) you will never get even close to ideal ignition timings. A very rough generalisation will tell you that there are two main issues that conspire to keep you in the dark.

 

One is that you need a 3d system to give you a load reading to give you anything like a reasonable figure for timing settings for any given set of circumstances.

 

The other thing is that compression ratios are a dynamic situation, ie changing with load, speed, air temp, atmospheric pressure etc, etc. and as far as i have seen there is no system which even looks at dynamic compression figures.

So adding an intake MAP sensor would allow us to be in par with a... 100 year old engine or something. I've been thinking of that since it's cheap and since car ECU's seem to use it. I guess you could use another sensor just like the one used for barometrics, and connect it to the intake manifolds. Then we'll have to come up with a map for that too. On the other hand it seems to me you get a pretty good load estimation from rpm and throttle. At 3500 rpm and WOT an educated guess would be "high load".

[luhbo]

And don't overlook the fact, that such a cheap 2D map based EFI system is capable to fullfill stricter and stricter EPA requirements without loosing to much power and driveability.

The most advanced Mikuni, Dell'Orto or elsewhat carb would see no land against this. 100 years old - ROFLMAO

[Phil A]

And don't overlook the fact, that such a cheap 2D map based EFI system is capable to fullfill stricter and stricter EPA requirements without loosing to much power and driveability.

The most advanced Mikuni, Dell'Orto or elsewhat carb would see no land against this. 100 years old - ROFLMAO

Arnt the epa the people who wanted us to believe that pumping cold air into an exhaust manifold would give us clean air out the tail pipe?

 

My experience is that for any given max hp figure, flat slide mikunis will give you a faster 60 foot time on the drag strip than injection.

 

Guess I spend more time doin it, than ROFLMAO. There are tooo many things to learn to do that. By the way, I prefer injection overall.

 

Half reasonable engines make around 4hp /cubic inch. This vintage crap we play with doesnt even make 2.

This doesnt mean its not fun, you just need to keep a perspective on where things are at.

 

If we tune a bike with std exhaust, injection, etc, etc, get it to do faster and quicker figures than the factory, and use less fuel, then just maybe we have got a rough idea of what is going on inside that engine.

 

If you then add something like Cliffs simple, efficient, (compared to the factory one) and cheap computer you have got some real learning aids.

 

Wasnt there a Dr John who showed the factory how to do it a while back? Pretty sad isnt it when 10 years later there is still nothing coming out of the factory with similar performance.

 

The critics said that the Daytona was 10 years behind the times.

 

Where does that leave the factory now??

[luhbo]

Arnt the epa the people who wanted us to believe that pumping cold air into an exhaust manifold would give us clean air out the tail pipe?

...

Half reasonable engines make around 4hp /cubic inch. This vintage crap we play with doesnt even make 2.

This doesnt mean its not fun, you just need to keep a perspective on where things are at.

....

Wasnt there a Dr John who showed the factory how to do it a while back? Pretty sad isnt it when 10 years later there is still nothing coming out of the factory with similar performance.

.....

 

Did EPA say cold air into the manifold gives clean air at the tail pipe? I doubt that. And real life is not the dragstrip.

 

About this marvelous dentist Dr.John: he tried to convert this "vintage crap", as you call it, into a competitive race bike. Being engineers, not dentists, they knew and know at Guzzi, that their V90 concept will never give a competitive race engine. It just means a lot of money wasted and so they said no to it, and they did right so.

 

Besides that, the frame was not his idea and the engine was not his idea. The biggest part he brought along was the money he had made as a dentist.

 

Hubert

[raz]

Half reasonable engines make around 4hp /cubic inch. This vintage crap we play with doesnt even make 2.

This doesnt mean its not fun, you just need to keep a perspective on where things are at.

So a V11 putting out 260 hp would be half reasonable. Are these numbers for force-fed engines? A Ducati 1098 is just 2.4 hp/qui. Even an YZF-R1 is around 3 I guess. Anyway I know I'd have much less fun tinkering with an R1. I would probably even have less fun riding one, in the long run.

[dlaing]

Arnt the epa the people who wanted us to believe that pumping cold air into an exhaust manifold would give us clean air out the tail pipe?

The EPA are the ones that pushed for pollution control standards that have resulted in better health for millions of people.

Bunch of idiots have opposed them every step of the way.

Back in the sixties, before the existence of the EPA, California'a green weenie governors, Pat Brown and Ronald Weenie Reagan signed bills that forced car manufacturers to clean up the emissions at the tail pipe.

The smog pump, and other technologies that introduced air into the exhaust, allowed the automotive industry to give us cleaner air out of the tail pipe.

It actually does work, by adding oxygen to hot exhaust gases, unburned hydrocarbons can burn in the exhaust system, and CO can be reduced.

Advances in emissions control have improved since then, making the smog pump obsolete. But this does not mean it did not work. Also, the need to reduce NOx may have had a part in the smog pump becoming obsolete.

[luhbo]

Probably enough said to this topic, EPA and stuff like that.

 

What was the original theme of this tread?

 

A more interesting question to those who know what they do would be: do the OEM maps generally show too much or too less spark advance when only torque is the goal? My opinion is that OEM maps have too much spark advance, but that's probably contrary to that what most people believe. That's why I'm asking.

 

Hubert

[Phil A]

Luhbo, I didnt say that the dragstrip was real world. You said that carbs wernt as good as injection and I used this to illustrate that in some circumstances the were in fact better.

 

To answer your question, in some areas they have too much timing and in others they dont have enough.

 

For example, when the cylinder is reasonably volumetricly efficient, they will use more timing to reduce emissions, but at idle the leaner they run it the better it complies, so to do this they need to retard the ignition.

 

This is more or less opposite to what the engine likes. A happy engine lasts longer runs smoother, makes more power and uses less fuel.

 

Design flaws in the inlet manifold for example (flat spot as you blokes call it) can be improved by changing timing and fuel figures. You can combine this with airbox design to improve efficiency to a point where it is negligable. It is usually still there to some degree, but it is masked enough for the average rider not notice it.

 

One thing you need to be aware of as you experiment is that generally speaking, more timing moves the peak combustion pressures to earlier in the cycle, with a comparable transfer of heat, and less timing does the reverse.

 

Another generalisation is that more fuel = less heat, less fuel=more heat. More timing =more heat and less timing =less heat. and making heat at the right time is what this game is all about.

[Alex-Corsa]

Thanks. He seems busy inspecting fur, or lack of it, in France I'll try and PM him.

 

 

Do inspect a lot of fur , indeed snake skinned ones does got more of my attention as well

My career as fur maintainer has reached new levels

 

So you want an original mapped chip for the 1.6M , right ?

Or you want something that works well ?

 

 

 

[raz]

Noticed that many furs I choose were having another "fur maintainer" (really - not an excuse). In

my good will to provide to every fur an exceptional treatment , any working advice about dealing effectively with such a problem will be rewarded (after success results)

L L

 

So you want an original mapped chip for the 1.6M , right ?

Or you want something that works well ?

 

I'm interested in the pristine original map because I'm not sure the one I've got is the original. Actually my My16M with Cliff's map is much better than the OEM ECU except for one situation: WOT through the gears, like going 0-200 km/h. Not that I do that very often but I want to know why. Except from that the OEM runs like crap while My16M is wonderful in casual riding.

[Alex-Corsa]

L L

 

 

 

I'm interested in the pristine original map because I'm not sure the one I've got is the original. Actually my My16M with Cliff's map is much better than the OEM ECU except for one situation: WOT through the gears, like going 0-200 km/h. Not that I do that very often but I want to know why. Except from that the OEM runs like crap while My16M is wonderful in casual riding.

 

 

OK then I will email you the original map, is that OK for you ?