Engine shuts down.....

[Marty]

I'm new to this forum. First I posted one reply to a somewhat older thread, then thought I better start fresh.

My 2001 V-11 Sport has generally been very reliable, with the exception of the neutral lamp, which would sometimes not work (the light would not come on). Replacement of the switch does not appear to have completely cured the problem, but it seems better. But this is just an aside, which I hope is not associated strongly with the main problem.

Another pesky issue has been an occasional stalling at idle following a longish run. I'm also wondering if this matter is associated with the main problem.

This bike will appear to run fine, but sometimes during a longish run, apparently when the bike is hottish, the engine will either lose power, and eventually die, or, will just stall and die. At the time of the failure it will not restart. BUT, if one waits say for 10 or 15 minutes, the bike will restart and all is well again. So far each time this has happened, I have made it home again, and have not yet had to be towed. I have not yet tried the more adventurous approach of continuing on further afield after the failure occurs!

The first time this happened, it was on the freeway, and the bike just cut out, with the tach dropping to zero-- an apparent electrical problem. This time, it restarted, then further along it started to cut out and come back, and finally cut out completely. At the time, it would not restart. Having heard about the relays, I noticed that several of them were identical, and swopped them around. Whether this cured the problem, or whether it was just the wait, I don't know, but in any case after this I replaced all the relays. I used ones from Omron, purchased from the electronics supply house Digikey, for only about $4 each. Although the OEM ones are 4 of one type and 1 of another, the essential difference is an extra unused function in the 1, and Omron has stopped making this type, so I ended up using 5 identical relays. These matters can be seen on the wiring diagram. So now, thinking I had solved the problem, I continued to ride, but the problem seems to have reappeared but now appears to be more fuel related than electrical. As I am not able to make this problem occur at will, and as survival on the road is a high priority when it does occur, I cannot always be sure I am seeing all the symptoms. However, it is my impression that the tach cutting out symptom and the feeling of electrical failure has been eliminated by replacing the relays. So, either the problem was always one of more than one cause, or, another cause has appeared on the heels of the first problem. Now during a longish run the bike will all of a sudden start to lose power, and act as though it has run out of fuel, finally stalling out completely. When this occurs the bike will not restart. A wait of perhaps 10 or 15 minutes results in being able to restart and ride with full power. On the basis of various advice I checked and adjusted the gap of the rpm sensor, this seemed to make no difference. Valve clearances are stock and fine.

I have been told that the following are possible causes: failing electric petcock, failing rpm sensor, failing sidestand switch, clutch lever switch, tps failure, fuel tank vacuum (tank suck). I have noticed various possible related matters discussed on this forum.

I don't want to start in replacing items that are not the true cause-- after all, the way electrical and electronic parts are, there is no guarantee and new one won't be faulty too.

Anyone want to offer suggestions on how to proceed to diagnose this problem?

[richard100t]

It sounds like you have what we here call "tank suck". Try using the search feature here & enter the words tank suck & see what you find. Another thought is the tipover valve may not be sitting right.

[Marty]

It sounds like you have what we here call "tank suck". Try using the search feature here & enter the words tank suck & see what you find. Another thought is the tipover valve may not be sitting right.

 

Thanks, I did read all that stuff already. However, at the time of the failure opening the fuel cap does not produce a sucking in of air nor allow the bike to restart, the only thing that seems to work is to wait for some time.

[pete roper]

What are the valve clearances set to? If they are set to the very tight US specifications and/or haven't been adjusted in a while the clearances may of closed up. When this happens after a long run when the engine gets good and hot one or more of the valves may get held off heir seats a fraction. While the engine may still run when you're on the throttle it won't allow the maintenance of adequate compression when the crank is turning slowly so the engine will die. It is also very bad for the valves as holding them off their seats allows the super-hot combustion gasses, (Rather than the much cooler spent charge gasses.) to shoot past the edge of the valve. These gasses are the same temperature as an oxy-acetylene flame and valves don't tend to last long in their presence.

 

Whip the rocker covers off and set the clearances to 4 thou (0.1mm) inlet and 6 thou, (0.15mm) exhaust and see if the problem goes away.

 

pete

[cycdude6]

Hello there, Welcome to the forum, it's been a great help to me in addressing the issues with my '04 Ballabio. The best advice I've recieved, and I had the same issues you report, is to change out the relays. I know, I know...it seems kinda of a weird solution, but it cured my bike immediately. The relays can act up intermittently and cause the sort of problems you are experiencing. In addition to the relays I've replaced the kill switch, which began to act up.

 

Here's a post I received:

 

Yo Dude

 

RELAYS

 

Don't dink around. Replace all the relays. I sent you a link from the www.Guzzitech.com site

 

Search for relays on the main page. This is a known issue.

 

Hope to see you on the road soon

 

European Motorcycle rally at Lars Andersen Museum

Oct 6th

 

Tom

 

So, good luck, never give up!

[Tim]

erm I think he's already done that...

[Skeeve]

3 pronged attack:

 

Replace relays. [check!]

 

Adjust tappets to world spec. [u.S. spec is rubbish to meet EPA noise mandates; hardly relevant when cars w/ broken exhaust manifolds don't get cited for noise vs. motorcycles w/ aftermarket exhausts being persecuted, regardless of noise level. ]

 

Check for tank suck [Known issue.]

 

Bonus:

 

Insulate fuel pump & lines under tank, as this may be partial result of the vapor lock issue afflicting '00-'02 v11s. [Again, a known issue only encountered in hot weather.]

 

Best o' luck!

[GuzziMoto]

Your relays may not be the cause of the issue, but do not assume that because you replaced them recently they are fine.

Brand new electrical components are always a possible source of trouble. And it sounds like your current issue is different then the original one. Whether it's a completely new problem or an evolution of the original is hard to say, but don't assume one way or the other.

[dlaing]

snip....

Now during a longish run the bike will all of a sudden start to lose power, and act as though it has run out of fuel, finally stalling out completely. When this occurs the bike will not restart. A wait of perhaps 10 or 15 minutes results in being able to restart and ride with full power. On the basis of various advice I checked and adjusted the gap of the rpm sensor, this seemed to make no difference. Valve clearances are stock and fine.

I have been told that the following are possible causes: failing electric petcock, failing rpm sensor, failing sidestand switch, clutch lever switch, tps failure, fuel tank vacuum (tank suck). I have noticed various possible related matters discussed on this forum.

I don't want to start in replacing items that are not the true cause-- after all, the way electrical and electronic parts are, there is no guarantee and new one won't be faulty too.

Anyone want to offer suggestions on how to proceed to diagnose this problem?

Symptoms do stink of eau de petrol.

If you replace the electric fuel petcock with a manual petcock which we can almost perfectly guarantee won't repeat the problem.

Intermittent rpm sensor problem is very difficult to determine. Maybe TechnoResearch of AxeOne software can show failure???????? But not likely.

If sidestand switch is failing, waiting 15 minutes should not help it start, but otherwise, it could be a problem. If it fails to start in Neutral, the problem is not the sidestand switch. (or rather not only, as it could be more than one problem.)

Clutch switch should also be immune to 15 minute wait. If it happens again, hold in starter switch and move clutch in and out repeatedly. If it starts it may indicate bad clutch switch.

Also, try holding in clutch and starter button and move steering from side to side. If it starts it could be bad harness connection.

EDIT ...and as Kevin says below, if failing it only prevents starting, it does not prevent running after the engine has started. Sorry I missed that important point.

Setting the TPS can have a profound effect on a happy idle. Please re-do a proper tune up.

As for the TPS sensor, when doing the TPS tuneup watch the voltage as throttle is actuated. Voltage should rise smoothly, and defects will probably be apparent.

Sounds like you have no tank suck.

4 thou (0.1mm) inlet and 6 thou, (0.15mm) is US Spec so you might try 6 thou (0.15mm) inlet and 8 thou, (0.20mm).

Since problem seems heat related, valves could be too tight, even if at "stock"

One man's 6 thou could be another man's 7 thou, so try looser than what you have it set to now.

Relays could still be the problem, or the connections.

Cleaning and protecting connections with silver conductive goop might do the trick.

[Skeeve]

One man's 6 thou could be another man's 7 thou, so try looser than what you have it set to now.

 

Well, hopefully not that far off! You do realize that to set a "6 thou" clearance, you utilize the .005" & .007" feeler gauges don't you? But I completely agree that there's variance by the individual performing the setting, so in the case of our old 'ditch pumps,' looser is better, within limits.

 

Ride on!

[dlaing]

Well, hopefully not that far off! You do realize that to set a "6 thou" clearance, you utilize the .005" & .007" feeler gauges don't you? But I completely agree that there's variance by the individual performing the setting, so in the case of our old 'ditch pumps,' looser is better, within limits.

 

Ride on!

I do it in metric and utilize the .10, .15, .20, and .25.

I try to use the pull it like pulling a bookmark through a large dictionary method, combined with verification that one size larger won't go in, without force, and one size smaller goes in too easily.

That probably is not as accurate as a good set incremented every .001", But it is good enough when you consider we can't even agree what specs to use.

How do you utilize the .005" & .007" feeler gauges? Do you not use the .006"?

I am pretty obsessive about balancing the left and right, and I think I get them set to with .01mm of each other, left to right, and exaust and intake are better than .05 + or - .01mm from one another.

But as for being within .001" of a master machinist's measurement, I hope I am that accurate, but I sure can't guarantee it.

Take any two of us amateur wrenches and all bets are off as to being within .001" of one another, especially after trying to tighten down the locknut without throwing off the setting.

[Velf 2003]

Marty,

 

I`ve just put in an entry in the `come to a grinding halt` discussion. Maybe it`s whorth while looking at it.

 

Best of luck!!

 

Velf2003

[Guest ratchethack]

Take any two of us amateur wrenches and all bets are off as to being within .001" of one another, especially after trying to tighten down the locknut without throwing off the setting.

Dave, no decent mechanic or half-competent shade-tree tuner would ever dream of trying to tighten the locknuts without throwing off the setting! Final reads are NEVER properly taken on screw-adjusters until AFTER the locknuts are firmly snugged-up. Any halfway decent wrench will be able to match the setting of another +/- .001".

[dlaing]

Dave, no decent mechanic or half-competent shade-tree tuner would ever dream of trying to tighten the locknuts without throwing off the setting!

Huh!?! What is your point?

Final reads are NEVER properly taken on screw-adjusters until AFTER the locknuts are firmly snugged-up.

Master of the obvious!

Any halfway decent wrench will be able to match the setting of another +/- .001".

I disagree.

[dlaing]

If you want to get really creepy anal retentive about it, get yourself a dial indicator with an adapter to fit onto the valve spring retainers. Then you'll know with sub-.001" accuracy what your settings are. These are nice if you work on machines with high mileage, as they account for the wear on the valve stem/rocker arm, unlike feeler gauges. I do not have a dial indicator, BTW, but I have used somebody else's to calibrate my settings via feeler gauge. There's oil on the pushrods/lifters/rocker arm cups that add clearance, too. I set mine fairly tight while pushing down on the rocker arm with the appropriate SAE feeler gauge.

Even if I could match Ratchet's feeler gauge accuracy by using a dial indicator, I don't see why I would bother.

I think I am accurate to within about .0005" of my own settings, and that is accurate enough since we can't even agree on using .004"/.006", .008"/.010, or somewhere in between.

But if Marty set to a rounded out .003"/.005" (.0034"/.0054" by dial gauge) thinking it was .004"/.006" I see a potential problem. But I even see a potential problem at .004"/.006". Of course not as bad as setting it to .002"/.004" as some have thought to be US spec, but I doubt that happened.