My Le Mans is dead

[Foxy]

It looks like my year long association with my 2004 Le Mans is drawing to a close. She has been less than reliable, with a few minor faults. But the riding experience allowed me to overlook this. Until the latest problem. A few months ago she coughed and died on me on my way home from work. I assumed it would be another niggling but ultimately simple problem but was too busy with work and a new baby to do much about it through the autumn. Finally I have had the chance to have a good look, and on dropping the sump I found it littered with metal shavings and flakes. I'm guessing that somehow I've killed off the big ends.

 

So I am left at what to do next. Obviously as she stands she is no use to man nor beast. Tomorrow I guess I might as well make a few phone calls to some local Guzzi specialists to find out what the damage would be if I decide to repair her. The other option is a second hand engine, but the only one I have seen is from Reboot and comes in at £1250 and I'd still have to respray the cases (it's a 2001 model) and fit it. Last option is breaking her for spares.

 

Any ideas how bad the news will be when I make those phone calls? Anyone want some nice shiny Le Mans bits?

[Tom M]

That's terrible news Foxy! Did the oil pressure light come on before the motor quit?

 

I think a few guys who had similar problems (most due to the oil filter unscrewing itself?) were lucky enough to clean up the crank journals and throw in a new set of bearings. A search on Pete Roper's posts should turn up some good information for you.

 

edit: I checked some of your old posts and I see you crashed this bike shortly after you bought it. Do you know if the motor ran for very long while the bike was on its side? If so maybe the oil pickup gulped some air and that's what did your bearings in.

 

Again, sorry for your misfortune

[pete roper]

As Tom has said, if your bike's engine ran for any time at all while it was on it's side then this would of started the decline of the bearings.

 

Sinc you don't make mention of it when you dropped the sump I assume the filter was still on tight? That being the case then it will either be related to the tip over/accident or will be another example of the sort of damage that occurs from oil pick-up exposure. Was the oil level low before the failure?

 

You may be lucky. Drop the rod caps, push the pistons and rods up the bores and examine the crankpin. Guzzi cranks are nitrided and are remarkable in their abillity to withstand abuse. As long as there is no bad scoring you may well be able to dress up the crankpin with wet and dry to remove all the traces of bearing material and simply slip in a new set of shells, bolt the rods up and ride. If there is significant scoring though you'll have to pull the crank and get it re-ground then go to undersize bearings but it will probably only be the crankpin that needs grinding so it shouldn't be very expensive.

 

I really DO recommend the installation of a baffle plate, prefferably one of mine . I know there are doubters out there but has anyone who bought and fitted one of my plates torched their big ends? Oddly enough I think the answer is a resounding 'No'.

 

Pete

[Foxy]

Yup, managed to throw her down the road pretty well. No idea how long it ran, if at all on it's side as I seem to recall it wasn't running by the time I picked myself up off the ground. That said I still managed four or five thousand miles since without a hitch. When it happened the only warning I got was rough idling, no oil warning light. Oil filter was still on tight, and the oil level didn't appear to be low.

 

Had been coming round to the idea of fixing her up, and what you say does give me some heart, especially the possibility of not needing to split the cases and pull the crank. Are there likely to be any major hitches if I try and do this myself? So far my engine building experience is limited to classic British singles, broadly similar technologies but rather less complex.

 

Just wish this had cropped up while I still had a warranty!

 

Cheers for your advice so far chaps.

[pete roper]

The Guzzi motor is very elegant and simple, it just happens to be built like a tank!

 

Best bet is to simply pull the motor off the front of the transmission, get it on the bench and set about taking it apart.

 

While the motor in the linked article is from an earlier bike the V11 motor is essentially identical apart from the sump/oil pick up design and the fact the engine doesn't have a distributor and has a 'Phonic wheel' for the tining on the camshaft.

 

http://www.guzzitech.dk/english/index.htm

 

Go to the top right hand corner and click on the box that says 'Technical Articles', you'll find my engine strip instructions there with edtorial assistance from Rolf. There is also an article by Greg about the fitting of one of my plates.

 

Pete

[luhbo]

Foxy, chips in he sump mean nothing, believe it! Engines don't play dead, they are dead or they are doing their job. Worn big ends were noisy, so noisy you shoud not have any doubts whether they're worn or not. At all they would not cause the engine to behave as strange as you've written. And big ends don't throw chips. If this engine's inside never saw light so far it's quite likely that these chips still are the genuine italian factory chips these bikes are delivered with. Really no reason to worry about.

 

Just clean and remount the sump and ask someone in your neighbourhood who knows how motorcycles and engines work what could be wrong with the bike's electrics. You've checked the sensors? The fuel pump? How many miles has the engine run now? If less than 30.000 or 40.000 it's as good as new.

 

Besides that, the Guzzi engine may be built like a tank, don't know how tanks are built, but regardless how many parts it has or not has: if you don't have a solid mechanical background - don't open it DIY. All this tattle about tanks and "straight simple" and whatever nonsense more is the main reason for most of the stories about unreliable Guzzis.

 

Hubert

[pete roper]

Besides that, the Guzzi engine may be built like a tank, don't know how tanks are built, but regardless how many parts it has or not has: if you don't have a solid mechanical background - don't open it DIY. All this tattle about tanks and "straight simple" and whatever nonsense more is the main reason for most of the stories about unreliable Guzzis.

 

Hubert

 

Hubert, many MANY people with limited mechanical skills have rebuild Guzzi engines quite successfully. We're NOT talking about grinding cranks or servicing cylinder heads here we're just looking at taking it to bits and puting it back together. The man says he's got experience stripping and rebulding old pommy singles? In many cases they are more difficult or at least troublesome than a Guzzi twin! I think this OoooH. HAnds off! No-Touchee! Leave it to an 'Expert' thing has gone way too far. If he has a look at my engine strip series on Guzzitech Dk he can make his own decision if he wants to proceed and if he does feel he can do it there are heaps of people here and on other boards to help and advise if he finds himself getting in out of his depth!

 

Oh, and on the 'Chips' thing I have to disagree. While I have seen small particles of swarf in some new Guzzi motors 'Flakes' and 'Chips' I haven't. It would certainly indicate that something is wrong to me. I do agree about the noise though. If you've run your big-ends you know about it! It sounds like a load of angry gnomes with jack-hammers playing in the crankcase!

 

Pete

[dlaing]

What the British call chips, we yanks call french fries.

But seriously, a starting point might be determining if the chips are aluminum or steel. Pete or Luhbo might then have a better idea what it might mean. How big are the chips? How many are there? Two? ten? hundreds? sludge?

[luhbo]

Pete,

basically your correct with most of your statements. The Guzzi engine has not that many parts as others may have, and there are a lot of non professional wrenchers out there who had their engine open and after that these engines still worked or maybe also worked again.

 

But that's not the point. Opening an engine is risky. You can missmatch parts, tear bolts, damage bearings, sealing surfaces and so on. Not to talk of damage done to the frame laquer or problems with the correct harness reassembly. Probably all of us have experienced nuts and bolts, maybe parts even, that either have vanished or are suddenly somewhat surplus.

 

The point is, that a skilled mechanic as you tend to be one should be a bit more shy to tell everybody "Go and tear it apart. It's fun and easy". Especially not if you don't know the people you're writing to.

 

Tell him to check the compression for instance. Tell him to look for a dealer that may plug the bike to a diagnostics computer etc. etc.

 

Hubert

[Foxy]

The items in the sump are a mixture of ferrous and non ferrous, can't say too much more as I haven't cleaned them or done anything more than pass a magnet over them. They vary in size from less than 1mm to about 3mm, of which there are hundreds to a couple of large shavings that are about an inch long. What I do know is that they were not in there when I changed the oil and filter a thousand or so miles ago. And that the engine is therefore really not well. I'm still not sure what caused the poor running previous to this but as it ran better after flushing the fuel system brought about an improvement and I haven't yet put any fresh petrol in I'm not convinced this is directly related to the contents of my sump. I do know that the battery is definitely past it and have wondering if this is responsible for part of the problem. The noisy running persisted for a short time before me coming to a halt, at which point the battery wasn't up to even turning the motor over. On a fresh jump pack it started up on the second thumb of the button. When it sounded absolutely horrific, prompting both me and the recovery chap to leap towards the kills switch.

 

My plan so far is simply to investigate what I can as simply as I can. I'll be making a start by removing the heads and barrels and inspecting the state of the rods and big end. Mercifully these engines don't require dropping the engine, splitting the cases and then splitting the crank to do so. But I'm not in an enormous hurry as thankfully I have a couple of other bikes to keep me mobile.

[luhbo]

....The noisy running persisted for a short time before me coming to a halt, at which point the battery wasn't up to even turning the motor over. On a fresh jump pack it started up on the second thumb of the button. When it sounded absolutely horrific, prompting both me and the recovery chap to leap towards the kills switch.

.....

 

This now sounds different to "running rough", even to an English native speaker, ....NOT?

 

Anyway, try to check the compression of the engine and then please post the result. This would be interesting to probably all of us.

 

Hubert

[pete roper]

This now sounds different to "running rough", even to an English native speaker, ....NOT?

 

Anyway, try to check the compression of the engine and then please post the result. This would be interesting to probably all of us.

 

Hubert

 

Hubert? What on earth is a compression test going to tell him about the bottom end of his motor? A compression test is a fairly effective but crude way of checking the condition of rings and valves, it'll tell him bugger-all about the bottom end. All it will do is cause more damage by spinning the crank with the rods with no bearings in so they'll hammer the bejasus out of the already damaged crankpin!

 

The more worrying thing is that there are ferrous bits in there. Guzzi use tri-metal big end shells which aren't magnetic. The only things that ARE magnetic are various bits of the thermostat/oil filter housing and PR valve assembley, the crank, rods and assorted hardwear and the Nicasil coating on the bores which is faintly magnetic. The only other thing that they could be would be bits of piston ring but unless a piston has actually disintegrated and taken the bore with it they wouldn't end up in the sump.

 

Any which way its going to have to come apart. My money is still on it having run its big ends due to oil starvation. Where the ferous bits have come from won't be able to be established until its in pieces.

 

Foxy, you can either take Hubert's advice and say that it's all terribly frightening 'White Man's Ju-Ju' and sell it for pennies as a blown up munter or you can roll yer sleeves up and get stuck in. Fact is you've got nothing to loose by pulling the motor and taking it to bits. If you do decide to wreck it out you'll have to disassemble it anyway.

 

 

Pete

[pete roper]

I've no interest in getting into an argument here, but here's some of my experience:

 

I have cracked cylinders before by going down hard...

 

I have bent valves by doing the same...

 

I have not found metal of any kind in the sump of my '02 V11 Le Mans I bought new...

 

A compression test would indicate any piston/ring/valve sealing problems, and he obviously wasn't concerned about running the bike after an accident because he already did so for a long time.

 

My guess is he's got broken rings/cocked cylinder and is peeling off his cylinder little by little.

 

Cracked a cylinder? Really! Not saying I don't believe you but I've not seen damage that extensive on any bike that was even remotely rideable after a crash in 30 years, if it happens it must be incredibly rare, it would suggest to me a casting fault. Likewise the bent valves, I suppose once the rocker cover has been biffed off if you slam the head into a gutter or soething you could do it but in between the valves and the road there is a wholke lot of pretty solid stuff and once again the bike would be unrideable.

 

As for the running of the bike after the accident? Well, yes, it ran albeit a bit ropily according to his description. If it ran while it was on it's side then bearing damage would of began then and their deterioration would of continued over time until there wasn't sufficient bearing area remaining to handle the forces being exerted on them. Once they reach that point failure will be rapid, almost instantaneous but it can take a while for it to occur.

 

Cracked cylinder? Was it smoking or leaking prior to its demise? How would the bits of ring get into the sump? THat sort of damage is easy to see from the underneath of the engine, just lie down with a torch and have a squizz up past the oil cooler themostat/filter/PR valve mounting. The sort of scoring to the bores or a broken up and destroyed piston that will allow bits of ring into the sump will be immediately apparent.

 

Pete

[pete roper]

Loose, broken rings and wrist pin clips can jingle around inside the cyclinder while the engine is running (and cause all kinds of gouging type damage), then one day, after thousands of seemingly trouble free miles, go down the side of the cylinder in a violent, sudden action, and end up in the sump.

 

Errr. I dunno what sort of engines you've been looking at Kevin but that is absolute bollocks. No, I don't want to get into an argument either.

 

The fact is that if a clip comes out it will cause immediate and catastrophic damage. Within a few seconds the pin will of moved sideways into the side of the bore causing further irreparable damage and the whole thing will come to a screaming halt. Also how would the rings or parts thereof get into the combustion chamber? And once there nothing 'Jingles about' it either gets expelled out of the exhaust valve or more likely gets stuck between valve and seat and the valve will then bash the piston, (I've seen this with foreign bodies of many sorts but never a bit of ring!) or it gets cold forged into the head or the the top of the squish band of the piston which in turn collapses the land betwixt deck and ring seizing the ring so it cant work and you get smoke and poor running and all sorts of silliness.

 

The idea that lumps of metal could hang about in the combustion chamber without causing sufficient damage to create a catastrophic failure for more than a couple of seconds is so laughable as to be absurd. Have you considered how fast all these things are happening? 'thousands of miles' is millions, if not billions of cycles of the engine. To think that you can have anything biffing up and down in the bore for more than a very few cycles without causing irreparable, engine killing damage is, I'm afraid, plain daft!

 

Pete

[dlaing]

Errr. I dunno what sort of engines you've been looking at Kevin but that is absolute bollocks. No, I don't want to get into an argument either.

 

The fact is that if a clip comes out it will cause immediate and catastrophic damage. Within a few seconds the pin will of moved sideways into the side of the bore causing further irreparable damage and the whole thing will come to a screaming halt. Also how would the rings or parts thereof get into the combustion chamber? And once there nothing 'Jingles about' it either gets expelled out of the exhaust valve or more likely gets stuck between valve and seat and the valve will then bash the piston, (I've seen this with foreign bodies of many sorts but never a bit of ring!) or it gets cold forged into the head or the the top of the squish band of the piston which in turn collapses the land betwixt deck and ring seizing the ring so it cant work and you get smoke and poor running and all sorts of silliness.

 

The idea that lumps of metal could hang about in the combustion chamber without causing sufficient damage to create a catastrophic failure for more than a couple of seconds is so laughable as to be absurd. Have you considered how fast all these things are happening? 'thousands of miles' is millions, if not billions of cycles of the engine. To think that you can have anything biffing up and down in the bore for more than a very few cycles without causing irreparable, engine killing damage is, I'm afraid, plain daft!

 

Pete

What a smart way not to get into an argument!

Daft! Pummel the seals with a bat, just for sport! Bollocks!

I don't want to start an argument either, but I think the boxing would be more enjoyable if you keep the 16 ounce gloves on instead of turning it into an Ultimate Fighting Championship Bout.

Here is a good read about lockring failures

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/feature.php?F_...amp;action=read

Unfortunately it does not mention how long it takes for lock ring troubles to erode into noticeable damage.

I can only imagine the number of scenario varies greatly.

I rode my V65 for many miles, watching the fuel efficiency drop from 50MPG to 45 and then to 40 and then 35MPG.

I did a compression test with bad results, so I pulled the cylinder head off there was a chip out of one of the exhaust valves, and what appeared to be well polished scoring of the cylinder walls. Previously I had dropped a valve and it was covered under warrranty....sort of <_>

I figured scoring of the walls could have been from the earlier dropped valve or from the chip of the exhaust valve that probably got expelled into the exhaust. Anyway the point is the bike ran in a pretty bad state for hundreds of miles before I thought something was wrong. Yes, I was younger and more ignorant then. Now, if my fuel mileage dropped 2MPG I would pull out the compression tester!!!!