roper plate revisited

[dlaing]

I've been following the debate about the benifits of the roper plate with interest as I've just bought a rosso mandello,(first guzzi). After much discussion with friends who have long history with guzzie's(mk1,mk3,lario and jackal) they laugh and use rude words and say never had any such problems, is this a design fault unique to the V11 sport and only under really hard acceleration or people getting a bit carried away

The broad sump Guzzis, which I believe are all the spine framed Guzzis, have the oil pick up placed so far forward that under hard acceleration, the pickup can become deprived of oil.

 

For evidence, I submit Ryland's testimony regarding oil pressure before and after installation of the sheet:

Before Roper plate in first gear under max acceleration from a rolling start on level ground, it dropped to zero when I reached 4000-4500 RPM, with 4 quarts. In second gear again from rolling start, max accel, no drop. After installing the Roper plate, no drop in first. Pressure was normally 59 psi.

Greg Field and others have also tested it and reached the conclusion that the sheet eliminated their seeing the red light come on.

 

Another contention of debate is what is the proper oil level.

Ryland has shown that, at an oil change, if you add the amount oil recommended by Guzzi, the level will be several millimeters higher on the dipstick, than the high level as read by the instructions in the Guzzi manual.

Greg Field suggests that the dip stick be read NOT SCREWED IN.

Measuring Greg's way jives pretty close to Ryland's measurements.

I for one burn too much oil at that level, so I want to design a lower sloppage sheet, yet it may not be easy, and I should probably just order a Pete Roper MotoModa sheet, which will reduce windage and oil consumption.

[pete roper]

I for one burn too much oil at that level, so I want to design a lower sloppage sheet, yet it may not be easy, and I should probably just order a Pete Roper MotoModa sheet, which will reduce windage and oil consumption.

 

Better yet you could do your own Dave! This is what Savagehenry did because he was/is impecunious enough and had enough access to tooling to make his own. Nice thing is that he asked me if I minded before he did which while completely un-neccessary was polite and appreciated. I have no issue with people 'Rolling their own'. If they were then to market them under my name I'd be pissed off but I have no copyright or patent on the design Oddly enough I don't think its really worth copying if you want to source a money making venture .

 

If you're burning or expelling a lot of oil if you have 4 litres/quarts in the sump there are a couple of things.

 

1.) The plate will help combat expulsion, although this isn't its primary purpose.

 

2.) If it IS being burnt at a significant rate I'd want to find out why. Glazed bores or buggered guides/rings are the usual suspects!)

 

If you do want to make a 'Lower' plate it wouldn't be very hard. Simply use one of mine, or your own facsimile, as a template and then weld in a 'Stepped' spacer. Either step it *UP* from the sump plate proper or *DOWN* from the block. You'd probably have to grind and modify a few bits to allow the ingress or egress of assorted pipes and bits of munt, (That's one of the reasons why mine goes where it does, its easy !) but if you're a competent welder, (Or if you're like me, know one! I can't weld to save my life!) it shouldn't be a big issue.

 

Pete

[Skeeve]

If you do want to make a 'Lower' plate it wouldn't be very hard. Simply use one of mine, or your own facsimile, as a template and then weld in a 'Stepped' spacer. Either step it *UP* from the sump plate proper or *DOWN* from the block. You'd probably have to grind and modify a few bits to allow the ingress or egress of assorted pipes and bits of munt, (That's one of the reasons why mine goes where it does, its easy !) but if you're a competent welder, (Or if you're like me, know one! I can't weld to save my life!) it shouldn't be a big issue.

 

Pete

 

Given the broad sumps' inherent spacer, and the primary purpose of the sloppage sheet being to keep the oil from running away from the pickup, wouldn't it be easier to add a second, vastly simpler sheet below the spacer (w/ necessary gasketry) that only had a couple of big holes near the front for oil to get into it, leaving the Roper plate to do the majority of the flow control and windage duties? Kind of a belt & suspenders approach, but it could be much thinner material than the Roper plate [since it wouldn't have to sustain the pressure differences of the latter, being almost always completely immersed.] That sheet could be made by the expedient of cutting the perimeter to size, gasket-sealing a gasket to one side to use as a template, drilling the perimeter by hand and using a couple of hole saws in the middle [probably need a 3" hole for the filter location, w/ a couple or three 1" holes in a line down the left side... ]

 

This is just all from the top of my head, & I don't have a clear mental picture of what the inside of the sump below the spacer is like. What say you, Pete?

 

[Ryland3210]

It seems to me that as long as the oil level is below the plate, it provides protection from windage and whatever contribution that might make to oil consumption. If I have a choice between one which allows 4.5 quarts, and one which allows considerably less because it is mounted lower, I prefer the former.

 

I agree with Pete that Dave might investigate the cause of his relationship between oil level and consumption. If it's windage, it seems to me that Pete's plate would work as it is. If it's something else, Pete's plate won't hurt, but would cure the starvation problem under fast acceleration, and allow for more oil.

[dlaing]

I probably should find out why it consumes oil, but it does not seem to be getting worse, although it is variable.

If I make my own shloppage tray it would probably mount to the bolts that hold the sump on, about 1cm lower than the Roper MotoModa sheet, although I would ideally want it right at the 3.5 liter fill level.

Considerations might also be made for going around the plumbing.

Next oil change I will stick a camera under the sump to get some ideas.

These photos Dan Coronado took of the Ratchethack aided MotoModaTray install are revealing, but I need shots of rearward side.

[dlaing]

It seems to me that as long as the oil level is below the plate, it provides protection from windage and whatever contribution that might make to oil consumption. If I have a choice between one which allows 4.5 quarts, and one which allows considerably less because it is mounted lower, I prefer the former.

 

I agree with Pete that Dave might investigate the cause of his relationship between oil level and consumption. If it's windage, it seems to me that Pete's plate would work as it is. If it's something else, Pete's plate won't hurt, but would cure the starvation problem under fast acceleration, and allow for more oil.

I suppose I fall into the camp of 'less is more'.

Less oil is more room for the pistons to breath.

Pete's sheet certainly would not hurt. I am pretty sure if I installed it and kept the oil level low, the consumption would be lower than it is now.

But for the anti-sloppage to prevent deprivation, it is pretty clear the oil level needs to more than 3 quarts.

There is probably some ideal oil level, a perfect compromise that balances piston breathing room with oil change periodicity.

I suppose someone could hook a bike to a dyno, and gradually raise than decrease the oil level to find where the oil level really starts to choke the performance. I am not that ambitious.

Can I get no deprivation with 3 quarts if I drop the sloppage tray to at or about the pan gasket? Maybe.

I think a better target is a sloppage sheet that prevents deprivation when using 3 to 4 quarts. I choose those numbers assuming the factory picked 3.5 liters for a reason, and that they anticipate the oil level dropping about a liter to about the low mark on the diptick using the higher reading method, so maybe 3 liters is ideal.

But this is all just for me, I firmly believe the usual suspects and then some will disagree with me.

I think installing Pete's sheet AND raising the oil level from about 3 liters to about 4 liters won't reduce MY oil consumption.

Feel free to right me off. Maybe I should instead spend many hundreds of dollars fixing the oil consumption problem. Who knows, doing so may also improve power and fuel efficiency. Compression difference between cylinders is more than 5PSI and less than 10psi, so not bad. The air box has lots of oil collecting in it, so I don't think it is burning the consumed oil other than through recirculation burning.

What I really need to do is find a cheap low mileage engine with Mike Rich head work done and the Roper sheet pre-installed.

In the meantime, maybe Pete will give me a prototype Moto Moda shloppage sheet to modify?

[polebridge]

OK...I think I have a solution to my dropping oil pressure. I went with John's recommendation and added another half a quart (actually I think I now have 4.5 liters of oil in the bike). This seems to be keeping the pressure up even under hard acceleration. I even hoisted the front wheel about a foot and no problems.

 

My only question/concern now is what are the possible consequences of running too much oil and is 4.5 liters to much?

 

Also, I my be crazy but I still think that the bike runs better with the plate installed. It's like it lost 50 lbs or something? Strange. Maybe it's just that it's the begining of the riding season.

 

Thanks to all.

 

Mike

[raz]

Also, I my be crazy but I still think that the bike runs better with the plate installed. It's like it lost 50 lbs or something? Strange. Maybe it's just that it's the begining of the riding season.

Actually I too can swear I feel a notable difference to the better. I've hesitated to even admit it because it sounds like the people swearing by slick-50 or something. Anyway power was not the goal so even if it would be proven totaly unmeasurable that wouldn't mean I'm screwed.

 

A dyno run right before and right after installing a plate would be very interesting. Until that happens though, I certainly wouldn't advice anyone to install a plate just for power, and neither does Pete from what I've read.

[pete roper]

A dyno run right before and right after installing a plate would be very interesting. Until that happens though, I certainly wouldn't advice anyone to install a plate just for power, and neither does Pete from what I've read.

 

My guess is that a Dyno run would prove little. If the plate does give a noticeable improvement in performance while a small part of that may be due to the more rapid removal of oil from the *air* within the case and the prevention of crank windage picking oil up from the sump I'd think that under hard accelleration as the oil sloshing back in the sump, unrestrained, would tend to surge into the rear crank web. Now THAT will cause a very noticeable viscous drag! If the plate is doing it's job well that surge would be prevented so there would be none of that viscous drag. On a dyno though there is the problem that although working hard the bike is stationary so there would be no rearward slop when you whack open the throttle.

 

Pete

[pete roper]

My only question/concern now is what are the possible consequences of running too much oil and is 4.5 liters to much?

 

Mike

 

Others have done this without problems. The thing to remember is that the more incompressible oil there is in the engine the less compressable air there will be. this means that the pumping acion of the pistons as they rise and fall will be greater which has the potential to tax the breather system more than it did before. this is likely to manifest itself in one of two ways. Either you may blow a seal, (unlikely as if it was going to happen it would of happened to someone else by now.) or excess oil may overwhelm the capacity of the spine to allow it to condense and return to the engine so some of it will be expelled to the airbox.

 

Next time you have a squizz at your air filter look in the bottom of the airbox. if there is evidence of pooled oil, (Rather than just a dampness caused by misting.) some will be being expelled. The most serious side effect of this is likely to be that your filter gets grubby a bit quicker and if it is bad enough it could possibly promote detonation but both these scenarios are extremely unlikely. The plate's ability to hinder pick-up of oil from the sump by th rapidly rotating crank also aids with limiting oil expulsion.

 

As I've said before the small increase in capacity over the earlier engines, 11068cc rather than 948cc, is only slightly over 100cc. Not all of this is going to be part of the 'pumping' action as the maximum crankcase volume and minimum crankcas volume will not differ by this whole amount. All the earlier bikes, like our racer (998cc.), that run sloppage sheets I've used plates bolted to the case and used the underside of the plate as the 'Level', I have to admit I've never bothered measuring how much went in. So the 'pumping' action is going to be very similar and we've never had any problems with the oil running at that level.

 

If adding that much has made the problem go away? Great! Stick with it. The only thing I can think is that previously the oil slopping away from the pick-up under acceleration was able to do so only enough to expose only a tiny part of the pick up. Either that or it was drawing air in from above the level of the oil somehow and now its fuller the 'ole is below the level of the oil. Can't really see how this would be the case though

 

Pete

[polebridge]

Thanks Pete!

[EnduroGuzzi]

More a Guzzi, than Roper Plate issue. When removing the upper sump casting several of the bolts were a bit sticky, when examined it appears that the bolts (6 of them) were installed with some type of lock-tite. I have never heard anyone in all of the RP posts mention the use of lock-tite when re-attaching the sump. I'm pretty sure the sump has never been off, but would'nt bet a paycheck on it. Anyone lock-tite those internal M6's? Or could this have been some kind of "factory" thing?

 

If lock-tite were to be used, what color would you recommend? My thoughts are blue, but I'm no regular user of the stuff so I'm not sure.

 

The bike (04 LeMans) was purchased as a salvage (owned by a former member of this list) with a small amount of cosmetic damage, and very minimal "structural" damage. I find it funny what they consider totalled these days. Anyways just hours away from getting it going as a "rebirth". Traxxion forks, Wilbers shock, new pirellis and I can't wait to go! The body work can wait, I like my stuff to look "rally" Thanks for any advice.

[Guest ratchethack]

FWIW, I've been using Loctite 242 "Blue" and other threadlockers for 40 years on moto's, cars, trucks, etc. of many descriptions on just about everything, and always use it on steel M6 bolts going into aluminum castings. Loctite 242 was used on the '04 LM in the photo's Dave posted above (post #140) on my Pal's Guzzi on all bolts involved, and on my own, when we installed Roper plates same day. I highly recommend using it, along with a careful clean of both the blind holes (a shot o' Brakleen followed by another shot of compressed air to clear the hole works fine) and degreasing/cleaning of the bolt threads (lacquer thinner works here).

[EnduroGuzzi]

Cool, Thanks Mr. Ratchethack!

[Guest ratchethack]

Cool, Thanks Mr. Ratchethack!

Por nada, mi compadre!