roper plate revisited

[pete roper]

It wasn't supposed to be a dig at Ryland at all. (God? Can't we get away from the idea that everything has to be combative! It's really BORING!) I just wanted to make people aware that if they do use a plate their motor won't collapse in a pool of molten slag if they use 30cc less oil than *any* recommendation. As an addendum to the bearings thread you could say you can use any amount of oil as long as its enough to provide the two functions, lubricate and cool, but there also has to be enough so that heat can be dumped before it re-circulates and sufficient that there is an ability to give a reasonable service interval.

 

Just to drive people into a frenzy, I don't care how good an oil is supposed to be, none of my air cooled engines have oil change intervals much beyond 5,000Km

 

Pete

[rologuzzi]

Interesting thread. Haven't posted for some time but I've been following the windage plate saga with interest.

 

Having recently installed one of Pete's plates (only taken me 18 months after getting it from him!) on my Ballabio, my rough measurements & observations regarding oil level & quantity are in broad agreement with those of ryland's. I'm running approx 4 litres & the oil level (cold, bike level on shop stand) is what I'd call a "comfortably small" distance below the base of the plate. I've not measured it nor the quantity of oil exactly.

 

Full marks to ryland for going to the trouble of working out the figure in great detail, he has confirmed my rough figures. But I reckon in the final analysis, the level & volume aren't overly critical. Most V11's run fine for 99% of the time with no plate & 3.5 litres. It seems logical to me that the engine should run at least as well, if not better, & have an improved safety margin in certain circumstances WITH the plate AND a bit more oil. Anything over 3.5 litres & up to the bottom of the plate should be OK. 4 litres is neat (a full bottle of oil) & easy to remember so until proven otherwise, that's what I'll be running.

 

Cheers

Tony

[Bruce Reader]

Pete- continue, I'm learning something.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[Guest ratchethack]

I just wanted to make people aware that if they do use a plate their motor won't collapse in a pool of molten slag if they use 30cc less oil than *any* recommendation. As an addendum to the bearings thread you could say you can use any amount of oil as long as its enough to provide the two functions, lubricate and cool, but there also has to be enough so that heat can be dumped before it re-circulates and sufficient that there is an ability to give a reasonable service interval.

Thanks for skewering this one, Pete. Now just to make sure it stays on the skewer from this point forward, I hope you'll not mind if I hike it directly on over to the rotisserie, turn it over a roaring fire, and get it well roasted -- just to ensure that at some point, this thing won't take off across the bush again on the hoof, and we may actually be able to stop repeatedly hunting it down after re-capturing it again (I thought we'd drained, gutted, and skinned it nearly 2 years ago, f'er cryin' out loud?!?!) and get on with the Guzzi riding festivities -- or since it's still Winter (raining again here at present) at least we can get onto something more challenging! . . .

 

As I've posted many times, I believe the addition of the Roper plate makes maintenance of an operating oil level much less critical than without the plate. In other words, the acceptable range of oil level has been widened considerably with the Roper plate. By my careful observations, having run it for 18 months, that acceptable range has doubled.

 

Now I've never been one to be anal about checking my oil level, because I never used any detectable amount between changes, and there's simply been no need or justification to check it. But with the plate in there, after initial post-plate installation observations, I'm far less apt to check it between changes than ever before. If I want something to check, the air pressure in my tires (always #1) has now been elevated further on the priority list over oil level, which gets demoted from #20 on my mental checklist, and drops off the bottom altogether!!

 

See photo below and discussion here from waaaaaay back in October of '06:

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry104317

 

After 18 months of Roper plate operation and close observation, it still makes exactly the same, simple, logical, common sense to me that having the plate in there prevents exposure of the oil pickup and reduces windage by what has to be a very significant factor. The most significant changes to maintenance of oil level I have observed with the plate are:

 

1. An "ideal" oil level range with Roper plate is now between the upper dipstick mark and the plate. This represents a 2 cm higher level of ideal, or "target" oil level over the stock midpoint on the dipstick. IMHO, those who think it's necessary may safely re-mark their dipsticks accordingly by putting a new high mark on it precisely 29 mm above the old one (as measured on the dipstick itself) and may even use the old high mark as the new low mark, if they wish. But to me, this seems rather unnecessary, since the old low mark is now validated, being far safer than it was before installing the plate.

 

2. The acceptable low oil level with Roper plate is now NO LONGER nearly as critical as it was before installation of the plate. Oil may be run all the way down to the low mark on the dipstick without the former concern over exposure of the pickup under hard launches.

 

3. Over-filling, as always, still carries the risk of creating excessive windage and resultant loss of oil thru the condensor and airbox. However, with the plate in there, any excess oil allowed to accumulate above the plate in operation serves no valuable purpose wotsoever. ANY amount above this may be assumed to be 100% directly sucked up into the crank maelstorm and converted into unwanted windage. Enough of this excessive oil volume, and it will immediately be blown thru the condensor and wind up in the air box. Having an available space below the plate for oil to run into off the plate seems like a simple, rational objective that offsets this.

 

My theoretical oil level "target" when I installed the Roper plate 16 months ago, was halfway between the high mark on the dipstick and the plate. After 16 months of operation and careful observation, as far as I'm concerned, this theoretical "target" level has been validated. By maintaining it close to this "target", I have consistently observed:

 

1. No oil light coming on with hard launches, as had been the case before plate installation.

 

2. No loss of oil through the breather and airbox due to excessive windage.

 

3. A "freer-revving" motor above 5K RPM than without the plate -- This is a subjective thing that I noticed immediately, and for many days after installation. Today I'm so used to it that I find that I can't recall the way it used to be.

 

NOTE: I still cannot fathom all the obsession over how much oil by precise volume measurement goes into the motor (any motor) after an oil change?!?! The amount of old oil that gets drained OUT is never complete, and NEVER remotely precisely the same from one oil change to the next. Now if you can't get it all out, and if the volume coming out always changes, what's the point of measuring volume of new oil that goes in down to hundredths of an ounce, or even to the full ounce -- or even to the pint, for that matter?? Variables include obvious factors such as oil filter replacement (pre-filled or otherwise), amount of oil left in the sump not drained out due to a slightly different level of the motor from change to change, differing volumes of oil remaining trapped in the galleries, rocker boxes, oil cooler, etc. -- not to mention such variables as time allowed to drain, temp-related viscosity, atmospheric variances, moon phases, and possibly mood swings of the beloved Guzzi herself?! Doesn't EVERYONE run the motor up to operating temp after an oil change, and then check it after it cools back down, and top off to a "target" level accordingly?? If not, well I reckon it ain't too late to start doing it safely and correctly, and if already doing so, why any concern about the volume of oil going in a-tall?? Having at least enough new oil on hand to get the level right would be the important thing, seems to me.

 

-- Cdr. Hatchracket, cold, wet, and perhaps slightly more curmudgeonly than usual

 

Measurement from bottom of block, dipstick seated

The high mark on the dipstick is 2 cm below the Roper plate.

The low mark is 4 cm below the Roper plate.

[dlaing]

Oil may be run all the way down to the low mark on the dipstick without concern about exposure of the pickup.

We are talking measuring with dipstick screwed in, right?

I don't think so.

I think there is enough room between sheet and low level mark to allow the oil to slosh away from the pickup.

But if you are willing to lower your oil level that low, install a pressure gauge and watch it during WOT uphill runs through all the gears, I will accept your results.

What do people think about riding wheelies with the shloppage sheet installed?

Safe for the wheel coming up briefly if filled to the top of the sheet?

Riding for a city block could be devastating, regardless of oil level?

[pete roper]

I still cannot fathom all the obsession over how much oil by precise volume measurement goes into the motor (any motor) after an oil change?!?!

 

I can remember being told by one nut-case a few years ago that when he changed the oil in the bevelbox of his old Tonti he always REMOVED the box from the swingarm and set it up in a specially made jig that held the pinion ABSOLUTELY level. He checked this with a spirit level!!!!! He would drain the oil overnight and then re-fill it until oil just appeared at the level hole using a pipette for the last few ml!!!!

 

I thought he was absolutely BARKING MAD and it obviously showed. I must of gone all sort of goggle-eyed and my jaw made a noise as it slammed into the floor. Our relationship never really recovered after that

 

Pete

[Ryland3210]

Ryland, with the greatest of respect it DOESN'T have to be that precise. Really.

 

Put in plate. Mark stick just below plate, (Screwed in, screwed out? Doesn't matter.). Fill new filter with oil, install, with or without clamp . Replace sump. Fill with oil with bike roughly upright and to the new 'Full' mark. Go ride. Check oil occasionally That's it, end of story.

 

The quantity of oil to the nanno-poofteenth of a cc. is totally irrelevant. There has to be enough in there to do its job and the less space beneath the plate with air in it the more effective it will be in reducing rearward surge. That's all there is to it.

 

I feel the argument about what *is* vaporisation and condensation is simply an argument in semantics. The idea of the frame or box as 'Condensors' is the same as a septic tank 'Settling' pooh. Just that you're taking globules of oil rather tha turds and separating them. You can argue till you're blue in the tits about whether the oil changes state, on the cylinder walls or anywhere else, and whether it then re-forms into *oil* i the frame. The fact is it isn't, as far as any of us are concerned, important, because it won't have any effect that we can do anything about which we have any control.

 

Do we want to have a quick thread on piston rings and their functions? Do we want to examine the physics of heat in a combustion cycle? I'm more than happy to run through the basics, (Which is all I'm qualified to do.) if people want but seeing as nobody seemed to want to find out more about bearings I'm quite happy to leave it if it is deemed uninteresting or irrelevant.

 

Pete

 

Hey Pete,

 

I'm really not that sensitive. It's that in the case of terminology, use of the term "condensation" can mislead those who know that term's technical definition, when that is not what is going on in this case. It's simply the wrong term. I really didn't think there was any significant oil condensation going on, but I respect you enough to ask for your clarification, just in case I was missing something.

 

You focus on practical results, and that's fine. I'm interested in that too. I'm also interested in learning and understanding how these great mechanical contrivances work, even in cases where there is no practical reason. It's fun.

 

Of course it doesn't matter whether the oil level is measured to the nanoliter. However, there are people out there who don't even want to bother with adding oil, checking level, adding some more, etc. I've been asked to come up with the amount to fill to just below the plate, as you have recommended. I wanted to know myself. It's going to save me guesswork in the future every time I change oil. I'll just refill with 4-1/2 quarts from now on, and know I don't even have to bother checking the level, and that it will be 2 ounces below your plate.

 

Hopefully the time I took to get it measured accurately will also save many others a lot of guesswork in the future.

 

Why did I bother to include all the test conditions? May seem like an anal type's documentation overkill, but it will save time in otherwise answering a lot of potential posts on what about this, what about that, and lets people know how I got the answers so they can let me know if I have missed something. If people rely on my analysis, it's important to me that it be accurate.

 

By the way, I really enjoy your dissertations. Keep 'em coming.

 

Cheers, John

[pete roper]

John, I have no problem with people working out the *correct* amount at all. As I said before I find it weird that some people get so up-tight and combative about it and I also think that for novices obsessing about quantity is a bad thing if it detracts from the enjoyment of owning the machine.

 

Most Guzzis will use a bit of oil, especially if ridden hard and doubly especially if it is done in hot conditions but if the machine is using so much that top-ups have to be done every few hundred Km's/Miles then I'd be waving a warning flag as there would have to be something a bit topsy-turvey happening. 4 cylinder machines don't have nearly the pumping action of a big V twin as the crankcase volume remains pretty much constant so the only thing that needs to be expelled/breathed is the blow-by gasses. simply, their breather systems get an easier time. Smaller piston circumfirences also make for lower opportunity for blow by as well.

 

My first *new* Guzzi, (ie, post 1980! ) is my Griso which as pretty much the same set-up as the V11 bore and stroke wise, (The rod/stroke ratio is different.) and it uses a bit of oil, but not a lot, even when its hot and it DOES get ridden hard on occasion. as with most Guzzis though it seems tto 'Find it's level', in other words it will use a bit and then stop when the level has dropped to a point where the windage and pressure factors no longer cause a problem. With the Big 'G' with its new, narrower but deeper, sump and better pick-up design having the oil level drop a bit doesn't seem to matter. I have never picked up an error code for low oil pressure faults before changing the filter and usually what happens is when I change the filter, even if I fill it before installation, there seems to be a tendency for whatever air is in the system to trigger an error code. If I delete it after starting the bike and running the oil through though it doesn't recurr

 

I have to say that I'm tempted to design a plate for the 'G' just to see if I can detect any difference to performance based on the comments some have made about percieved improvements after fitting my plate to their V11's but I think I'll wait until I have my 8V to play with that as I see no need for it with my old pushroddy one.

 

As I've said before, I designed the plate to combat a SPECIFIC problem. any other benefits are purely luck and circumstance. I've been called a robber and a charlatan and my ideas have been 'Pooh-Poohed' by some but nobody is FORCED to use my plates . I do know though that I haven't heard of ONE case where a bike fitted with one has torched its big ends and I trust Greg enough to know that if it didn't work? He'd say so and I'd go back to the drawing board.

 

Incidentally I installed one for a bloke the other day at the same time I was replacing his Scura clutch with a *real* RAM one and recieved this email from him:

 

********************************************

 

Hey Pete, put my bike together today and that clutch is fukn unbelievable pardon the language.. better friction point, lighter lever action,quieter,blah blah... also the bike is running better maybe the heat sensor, the windage plate, what ever very nice.... thanks for your patience of me asking many questions and your expertise.. thanks Ralf

 

********************************************

 

Yes, I packed his temp sensor at the same time but I ALWAYS try and explain the how's why's and wherefores of any of the mods I suggest and will never attempt a 'Hard Sell' on anybody. I don't need to, I'm not so desperately impoverished that I have to try and rip people off so why would I? Unless I'm really MUCH weirder than I appear

 

Oh and just as an act of blatant, venal, spamming! I've just recieved my next batch of plates from my manufacturer. I'm sending some to Todd at MPH in the next couple of days so they will be available 'Locally' in the USA or you can buy direct, (Or not if you don't wish to!) from me. Dan? Yours went out this AM. Since I didn't know your sirname I sent it to 'Demon Dan the V11 Man' at Imperial

 

Should be with you within the week. Any problems? let me know.

 

Pete

[Ryland3210]

John, I have no problem with people working out the *correct* amount at all. As I said before I find it weird that some people get so up-tight and combative about it and I also think that for novices obsessing about quantity is a bad thing if it detracts from the enjoyment of owning the machine.

 

Pete

 

Pete,

 

I don't get the emotionally charged reactions, either. Yes, obsessing is a bad thing when it detracts from enjoyment. FWIW, when I'm seeking accuracy in something, I am extra careful about that when I think others will rely on that info. Measurement accuracy to determine a volume and required accuracy in filling that volume for the purpose intended are two different things. I hope there is enough common sense out there that people realize there is no need to control filling volume to the same degree of accuracy as the measurement of the sump's capacity. I agree that it's a bad thing if that isn't the case and it's a sad situation.

 

I enjoy seeking perfection in some areas others find boring and tedious, and which may appear obsessive to them. I see both sides of it. I find trial and error filling, checking dipstick, fill some more, etc. tedious, so I put in the effort so I don't have to do that again. In earlier threads I participated in to demystify the dipstick marks, my conclusion was to refill with 4 US quarts with filter change without Roper Plate. As a result of this study, I changed my practice to 4-1/2 US quarts with Roper plate installed. No need to obsess about that exact level implied or intended. I can be pretty sloppy about that from now on, without worrying, but only because I did the measurements.

 

If I see the level drop down to about 5/8 inch over the standard dipstick full mark (when fully screwed in), I'll add a 1/2 quart of oil. It's simple. Enough oil at the low end to prevent starvation (with the Roper Plate) on max accels in first gear, and little under the plate at the high end, without having to worry about an ounce here or there.

 

Perhaps this will relieve the anxiety of any out there, which may have been created.

 

I noticed it took quite a while for oil to drain through the plate as I filled the sump. Ratchethack said something about any oil above the plate being entrained in the maelstrom. Should we worry that as oil falls on top of the plate that it will be entrained before it drains down? If that's the case, how does any oil get below?

 

best, John

[raz]

I noticed it took quite a while for oil to drain through the plate as I filled the sump. Ratchethack said something about any oil above the plate being entrained in the maelstrom. Should we worry that as oil falls on top of the plate that it will be entrained before it drains down? If that's the case, how does any oil get below?

But of course, all oil will enter the sump via the spine frame . This renders the oil cooler redundant too!

 

Hostile Forum Disclaimer: I'm not attacking Ratchethack or anyone else, it was just a joke.

 

Disclaimer disclaimer: The last was also a joke

 

[pete roper]

Yes, there will always be a fog of oil in the case when the motor is running, (Believe me, until you've seen it you wouldn't believe how ugly it looks! ) but it *does* eventually return to the sump. As it hits the crankcase walls and, if installed, the sheet, surface tension will encourage it to stay there. Without a plate it's like spraying a garden hose into a bucket, probably more like a fire-fighting hose actually! At least this is reduced by not having the oil being flung violently off the crank into the sump. That will reduce aeration of the sump oil and the amount of particulate matter in the case.

 

If the holes were either too small or not in the right place I could see there being problems with drain-back or pooling above the plate. That's why I gave such big clearances around the filter/thermostat housing and put the holes up the front. I can't see drain-back being a problem. I suppose if you started yiur engine with thick oil in in sub-zero temperatures nd revved the ring out of it for 5 Kms it *might* concievably be an issue. If you do that sort of thing though you deserve everything you get!

 

Pete

[profWacko]

Pete said: I packed his temp sensor

 

This is the first time I have heard of this mod.

 

What is it exactly?

 

ADVthanksANCE

 

-Jack (I had a Roper plate in my 05 Le Mans, I miss that bike)

2007 Griso

2000 Jackal

1983 V50 III

[dlaing]

Pete said: I packed his temp sensor

 

This is the first time I have heard of this mod.

 

What is it exactly?

 

ADVthanksANCE

 

-Jack (I had a Roper plate in my 05 Le Mans, I miss that bike)

2007 Griso

2000 Jackal

1983 V50 III

A temp sensor measures how hot the luvin' is

But seriously, on the right cylinder head there is a sensor screwed into a fragile plastic adapter which is screwed into the cylinder head.

There is no metal to metal contact between cylinder head and sensor, and the ECU is known to respond slowly to the engine's warming up, so people have theorized that you should put conductive goo into where you screw the sensor to conduct the heat to the sensor, providing the ECU with a higher temperature reading. For some reason, what goo you use is a contentious issue. I have used silver conductive grease, but it was poopoo'd, for lack of conductivity, so don't you dare use it!!!

An alternative solution is to buy mapping software and tweak the temperature compensation map.

But that is more expensive than a little goo, and you might end up selling your pciii on ebay, so don't let that happen.

[pete roper]

I've mentioned this before but the gist of it is as stated above. The crappy sensor screws into a crappier plastic fitting in the head but rarely makes contact with the material of the head itself. This leave an air gap. Air is a superb isulator, (think 'Double Glazing') so the sensor doesn't detect the correct temperature and therefore the signal it sends to the ECU is wrong so the ECU delivers the wrong amount of fuel to the motor leading to poor ecconomy and running with dirty plugs thrown in as a bonus!

 

I have an Axone tool and one of it's display functions is engine temperature. On many, if not all, models with the ETS in the back of the RH head it will always give a grossly inaccurate temperature reading. As much as 60*C out! Always on the cool side.

 

Dave mentions that you can, if you have a PCIII or whatever, compensate by playing with the ETS parrameters? This may well be the case, I don't know, but I'd think if there is an air gap then a whole lot of other factors are going to have a greater effect, (Ambient temp. Whether the area around the sensor is going to be being cooled by rain? ) and the message is still going to be effected and in different ways in differnt conditions but I'd think less if there is a solid or semi-liquid medium between the sensor and head, its a simple density and conductivity thing. I can't see any problem with Dave's conductive paste. I simply use Zinc-Cote anti seize 'cos I've got a dirty great tub of it and it seemed to me to be the best thing I had for the task. There is no issue about the sensor having to *earth* as it earths in the ECU.

 

While some people who have done this and then tuned the bike using an Axone or say the Technoresearch software have reported improvements some have not noticed much, if any, difference. Most of the bikes I've dealt with though the owners HAVE reported an improvement, but that might just be the power of suggestion and the fact that they've spent some money. I really don't know for sure but I have done it to my Griso and the axone tells me the engine temperature more accurately than it did before.

 

Pete

[dlaing]

This may well be the case, I don't know, but I'd think if there is an air gap then a whole lot of other factors are going to have a greater effect, (Ambient temp. Whether the area around the sensor is going to be being cooled by rain? ) and the message is still going to be effected and in different ways in differnt conditions but I'd think less if there is a solid or semi-liquid medium between the sensor and head, its a simple density and conductivity thing.

Good point about how rain could effect the reading if there is insulation. Wind speed of course would be another factor.

The optional brass fitting has cooling fins. I wonder if that is a good idea? (I know, over-analyzing...)