Better "flickability"

[turo]

Hello everyone.

I have a 2003 Rosso Corsa which I just love, I must admit that I enjoy riding my 97 1100i sport MORE. Why, because it seems to be easier to flick it into the corners, to tell you the truth, I was suprised, my warped view was that since it was older...

Anyway, the V11 seems to be a little more work to get it into the corners, I'd love it to have the flickability as the 1100i yet I don't want a nervous front end. I've seen some bearing kits that decrease the rake by 1%, will that help? Any other suggestions please.

 

Thank you.

-john

[Lamedog]

Don't know what tires you had on your other bike, but there's general consensus the V11 rears is oversized in the compromise of aesthetics/flick quotient. Search numerous threads on this topic.

[Richard]

I have fitted a 170/60 rear onto my Rosso Corsa, dropped the yokes a bit and played with the front suspension settings. It now is more flickable than my '96 1100i sport and just as stable. I'm just wishing that the motor would be as rev happy as the 1100!

[docc]

Setting sags (often means more rear preload or a stiffer springs), dropping yokes (a few mm), different tires ( I like the Pirellis) are all easy things to tune.

 

Richard, how much did you drop your yokes?

[windchill]

Don't you think it far more satisfying to have to "heave your bike round corners? I like the old fashioned "go where I tell you" as opposed to the almost intuitive way modern bikes seem to take you down and round!

[Baldini]

I have no experience of changing steering angle, but as Docc says, there are simpler ways to improve turn if you haven't already done them...

 

What tyres you got? Different tyres make huge difference to handling feel. Quickest handling tyres I've used are Pilot Power 2CT's, which also grip great, wear evenly but very fast.

 

Going from 180 to 170 rear improves speed of turn in & also balance between front & rear - but not all tyres are available in 170 (2CT isn't as far as I know).

 

I raised forks in triple clamps by about 11mm on my Scura, which also runs the Ohlins (always check all clearances).

 

Is sag set correctly for your wt, front & rear? Enough rebound damping on front, enough compression on rear? I changed to stiffer springs f & r (Scura came w/very soft springs but I heard later Ohlins bikes had suspension set up better from new - although I don't know that for fact, & when I've asked for spec I've been told it's same ...).

 

Getting your bodyweight over front as much as possible also helps plant the front, V11's carry too much weight on rear, promoting vague front end, esp when suspension is off. I think 1100sport riding position is more over front end? I dunno I never rode one. I dunno is st hd angle same as V11?

 

All these help handling/steering more positive & precise, but no way make for a "modern" handling bike. Guzzis are very heavy & that is reflected in the nature of there handling. Like Windchill, I like their slow steering stability.

 

KB

[dlaing]

I thought The V1100i is supposed to be more stable and less flickable. It has a little longer wheelbase.

They are very similar bikes, so I would compare some of the measurements like front axle to to steering head, how much ground clearance, seat height, handlebar width and height, front and rear sag, etc.

But ditto on tires. I think an OEM sporti rear tire is more narrow.

Raising the rear, lowering the front will make it more nimble. This might increase stability problems, but only if something else is wrong to begin with, like sag being way off, bad bearings or bad tires.

[GuzziMoto]

Didn't the 2001 and earlier V11's have a 1 degree steeper steering rake? If that's the case, I would think the bearing kit that steepens the rake by 1 degree would work. It should give 2002 and later bikes handling like a earlier bike. I would check the trail and offset to make sure . But it should work. But the tyre thing is something to do first. If you have a 5" rear rim a 160 or 170 would help lighten the steering. A 4.5" rim should have a 160 on it. Also different tyres from different manufactors run different as far as width goes. Some companies make it easy to research rim and tyre width and others don't. Do some research. Remember what you want from your bike. What works for someone else may not work for you. Some say the early V11's with their steeper rake are nervous, but we took the steering damper off my wifes and it works even better. Heck, for that matter does your bike have a steering damper? That is another place to look. Dampers can help some bikes, but for street use they mainly band-aid a poorly set up bike at the expense of slower steering.Of course, all this is just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[Guest ratchethack]

Hello everyone.

I have a 2003 Rosso Corsa which I just love, I must admit that I enjoy riding my 97 1100i sport MORE. Why, because it seems to be easier to flick it into the corners, to tell you the truth, I was suprised, my warped view was that since it was older...

Anyway, the V11 seems to be a little more work to get it into the corners, I'd love it to have the flickability as the 1100i yet I don't want a nervous front end. I've seen some bearing kits that decrease the rake by 1%, will that help? Any other suggestions please.

 

Thank you.

-john

John, the 25 degree vs. 26 degree rake of V11 models was just discussed here:

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry137120

 

Having set up my own suspension front and rear, including re-springing both ends and a custom-order shock, I've been a ways down the road you're considering. I've also ridden both the "short frame" and "long frame" bikes "back-to-back" several times, and well appreciate the differences in handling that youre talking about. Compared to the "short frame" V11's, the "long frame" bikes handle a bit like a war canoe in the twisties. . . stable as a bank vault in the high-speed sweepers, but you sure gotta work it to get it around the tight stuff in lower gears. . .

 

There are a few options you may want to consider before changing over to offset headset bearings.

 

Coupla thoughts.

 

Before meddling with rake, I would strongly advise getting the sags set properly front and rear. This means getting the spring rates properly matched to your riding weight. You will never achieve the optimum handling possible for this chassis without properly matching spring rates to load. BOTH laden and unladen sags need to be in target ranges. My favorite resource sites for getting it dialed-in are these:

 

http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html

 

http://www.racetech.com/articles/SuspensionAndSprings.htm

 

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/oilheight.htm

 

The last link above I use only for the final setup of the fork, setting air gap (air spring).

 

Raising the fork tubes in the triple clamps one inch is equivalent to a decrease in rake of 1 degree. The downside trade-off of this is that you lose ground clearance, and hard parts will suddenly drag lots earlier, harder, and longer.

 

Likewise, raising the ride height at the rear by 1 inch will decrease fork rake 1 degree. This has the added benefit of increasing ground clearance, and hard parts will tend to ground later, with less impact, and for less duration.

 

I experimented a great deal and made incremental changes to get the handling I want. In the end, I managed to achieve a decrease in rake from stock 25 degrees on my 2000 Sport of ~1 degree (to ~24 degrees) by first getting the sags correct with proper match of rate to load, and then raising the fork tubes 1 cm, and ALSO raising the rear ride height 1 cm with a custom shock with a 5 mm over-length eye-to-eye, while considerably improving ground clearance in the process, moslty by getting the sags correct with up-rated springs. NOTE: there is very close to a 2:1 multiplier on the swingarm, wheel travel-to-shock travel.

 

As GuzziMoto mentioned above, going from a 180 to a 170 tire on your 5" rear wheel will transform the bike's steering quickness and sure-footedness considerably. Getting the suspension sorted properly makes even more of an improvement.

 

Hope this helps.

[Mike Stewart]

When I first purchased my 03 Rosso Corsa and went for a ride, my thoughts were this thing turns like a tank was the longer wheelbase that much different, my 2000 Sport was much better. Within the first week, I took off the Bridgestone 020's and slapped on a pair of Pirelli Diablo Corsa's, boy what a difference it made . Now this bike rocks, very stable and very flickable (lean, lean, lean). The roundness of the tire plays a big roll on how the bike will fall into the turns.

 

Mike

[windchill]

OK, so when does flickable equate to lean angle? My 03 Speed Triple flicks intuitively, sometimes scarily, but I can't get it over nearly as far as the Guz: which is well off the edge of its standard 020s.

 

We buy these things because they are pre-historic don't we: to fight with! To persuade around corners manfully

 

If you want to "flick" surely the answer is to buy something that isn't derived from a cultivator, together with a set of matching power rangers leathers!?

 

OR, have I missed the point somewhere?

[windchill]

By the way: we won the game that mattered!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cymru am byth!!!!

[Baldini]

OK, so when does flickable equate to lean angle? My 03 Speed Triple flicks intuitively, sometimes scarily, but I can't get it over nearly as far as the Guz: which is well off the edge of its standard 020s.

 

We buy these things because they are pre-historic don't we: to fight with! To persuade around corners manfully

 

If you want to "flick" surely the answer is to buy something that isn't derived from a cultivator, together with a set of matching power rangers leathers!?

 

OR, have I missed the point somewhere?

 

Maybe I misunderstand how you mean - intuitive...but I'd say riding my Guzzi is entirely intuitive especially my old Tonti, it goes where it wants & I know where it's going to go. If I have to fight it then I'm either not paying attention, or I'm trying too hard. Mine likes to be ridden smooth.

 

If clearance is OK, surely only thing that limits lean angle is tyres & confidence?

 

'dych chi'n siarad Cymraeg?

 

KB

[dlaing]

OR, have I missed the point somewhere?

Turo wants it to be as flickable as a Sporti, not as flickable as a hypersport speed triple.

Hey power ranger, do you change wardrobe to ride your speed triple? LOL

Congrats on the game!

[Ouiji Veck]

I'm totally with Windchill.

I went with the 170 on back but was worried it would

take away from the big "set up the corner R E A L early" feeling I've grown to love.

It did make it better in the tight twisties without giving up the Locomotive, all giddy,

gigilly fun of the big bear.

I'm a better rider because of the way the Guzzi handles...better for the real world.

The 3 years before the Guzzi I was on a Duc. SS...Loved it.

Love the Goose more. Just a lot more smiles per hour.

I'm verticly challenged and tend to really crowd the tank..chest over the gas cap and steer with my ass and back tire...that probably helps. Still need to tune my new Wiburs fore and aft but it's behaving fairly well. I would like it to be more supple though. 38K mi and it just keeps getting better. Managed to get 150 mi on this week end in New England. NOT bad for Feb.

6 weeks n' it's over.......yipeeee....