Better "flickability"

[Guest ratchethack]

Gents!

 

Long as there's so much interest here lately, leave us finally clear up our definitions for sake of discussion!

 

THIS is a steering DAMPER.

 

THIS is a steering DAMPENER.

 

[Ryland3210]

I rode a customer's bike for a week or so in effort to help diagnose a handling problem.

 

It was an intermittent problem that didn't seem to occur until at least 20 minutes in to a ride. Sometimes, it would start to feel like the rear tire was going flat, and then stop. I even pulled over a couple times because I was sure the tire was going flat. Sometimes it would begin a low-amplitude weave and then stop and then begin again, seemingly at random. The problem was an intermittently wonky steering damper. It was an Ohlins, too, on a Cafe SPort.

 

Hi Greg,

 

I don't know whether there was a quality control issue on Cafe Sports, but for what it's worth, the Ohlins damper on my '04 either had been assembled incorrectly, or had been fiddled with at the dealer before delivery to me (I bought it new). I discovered that when I attempted to adjust it, and found it jammed. It is a tricky assembly, and I had to make a special tool to assemble it correctly. In the process I found the steel ball to be rusting. It hadn't been providing any damping anyway, so I cleaned off the rust, oiled it up, and stored it away in a ziplock bag. I like the handling better without it, and have noticed no instability at any speed, even on some of the potholed, patched up lousy roads in my area. At some time in the future, if the bike's front steering bearings or other suspension components wear out enough to cause a problem, I'll pull it out of the archives.

 

My old '64 Harley had a simple friction damper on the steering head, which I did find very helpful when pulling a sidecar at highway speeds. In combination with a bungee cord attached to the left handlebar to offset the sidecar drag, it worked pretty well. In contrast, my Cafe Sport seems to have such precise alignment and lack of backlash, it seems unnecessary at speed, and a negative in the parking lot, IMHO.

 

Cheers, John

[dlaing]

Gents!

 

Long as there's so much interest here lately, leave us finally clear up our definitions for sake of discussion!

 

THIS is a steering DAMPER.

 

THIS is a steering DAMPENER.

 

But which makes you damper?

Not sweating it because you used a damper that dampened the oscillations in what was just another sweeper with an uneasy weave, or Pissing in your drawers during a tank slapper because you did not use a damper?

The phrase "Dead men tell no tales" comes to mind...

 

In my humble opinion, I'll trade the light easy predictable handling of no damper for the security of a damper, regardless of the bike's rake and trail.

I even liked friction dampers, but today's hydraulic ones are much better!

Especially the HyperPro ones that protect more when the bars move faster.

[GuzziMoto]

There are times when I would choose to put a steering damper( both spellings are technically correct) on a bike, like if it is a race bike. But currently my wife and I own four bikes and none of them run a steering damper. And while we do everything on these bikes from parking lot racing and SuperMoto racing to touring in western N. Carolina and eastern Kentucky or riding out to Indy to camp and watch the races(with all the cr*p that you need to strap on to the back of the bike to campout) and we seem to not get into issues with headshake rearing its ugly head. So I think its fair to say that you are not automatically gonna crash if you do not have a steering damper on your Guzzi. If you think you are then maybe you need to fix your bike.

[Skeeve]

There are times when I would choose to put a steering damper( both spellings are technically correct)...

[emphasis added]

 

Only in some other language than English. Ratch' has it right when he has the pic of the guy riding thru a creek captioned "this is a steering dampener."

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .I think its fair to say that you are not automatically gonna crash if you do not have a steering damper on your Guzzi. If you think you are then maybe you need to fix your bike.

GM, you've demonstrated a remarkable inclination to twist and distort this thing. No one here has as much as even remotely suggested that anyone is "automatically going to crash" if you don't have a steering damper on your Guzzi!

 

If you think I've suggested anything close to this, would you kindly point out where??

 

The FACT, easily backed up by recommendations of the Pro's is, is that though the probabilities may (or may not) be extremely low, depending on factors too numerous to list, there's just no reasonable argument to be made that the consequences of not having a functioning steering damper on a V11 Guzzi when you need it can be about as dire as dire gets!

 

We had a poster a few years ago report a fairly spectacular crash on his new V11 Guzzi that might well have been considered life threatening. It happened on a straight section of road with slight ripples. Being clearly inexperienced from his account of it in his post, he had no clue how (or if) his bike had been set up, nor the faintest idea of what might have caused the crash. One minute he was riding down the road, the next he knew, he was doing the macadam backstroke behind his new V11, which was spinning down the traffic lane ahead of him on its side. Lacking both knowledge and understanding, he had made it very clear that he'd concluded that THE CAUSE of this was an inherent (entirely unidentified) design flaw of the Guzzi chassis, and that somehow, it had thrown him off! Do you consider it IMPOSSIBLE that lack of proper use of a steering damper could have played a part in this? I certainly can't exclude the possibility, and it occurs to me that the probability in this case was pretty good.

 

Now this is just me, but having experienced both on numerous occasions, if I could choose one over the other, I'd much rather pick up a nail at speed than have a tank-slapper. I tend to push my Guzzi pretty hard in some pretty demanding terrain on far less than ideal road surfaces. Lots of unexpected things happen all the time. I might not be able to influence the probabilities of picking up a nail very much, but based on the expertise of countless Pro's, I KNOW conclusively, backed by evidence of many in addition to my own, that I can reduce the probabilities of uncontrollable front end oscillations on my Guzzi -- and by my own experience, I ALSO know that I can improve both handling and control with a steering damper! Wot's your life worth? Wot's your wife's life worth?

 

All I'm saying is best not dismiss the risks as paranoia, and understand the trade-offs.

 

Look at it this way. I don't automatically expect that my house will burn down when I have a fire in my fireplace, or when I fire up a torch in my home workshop. Not only has this never happened to me, but it's never even happened to anyone I know. But I know it does happen, and your damned straight I have numerous fire extinguishers close at hand, smoke detectors with working batteries that I test occasionally, AND insurance against fire damage! Call this foolish thinking if you will. It's a free country, and you can think anything you want -- but if your house isn't paid for and is uninsured against fire, your mortgage holder may have something to say about this according to the mortgage doc's you signed.

 

I reckon if as long as what you're doing on motorcycles is in parking lots, you have no need whatsoever for a steering damper. I tend to use parking lots only to park my bike, but that's just me.

 

The idea that steering dampers are only for those who don't know how to set up their suspensions is beyond ludicrous. See Ed Milich's "impulse test" in previous post. Better yet, send Ed (or Todd) an email over at GuzziTech, and ask them if the reason they both actually use the steering dampers they have on ALL their Guzzi's is because they haven't properly set up their suspensions.

[GuzziMoto]

Man i really twisted your words that time. I have said repeatedly that if a steering damper makes you happy, run one on your bike. I don't care. But to say "Wot's your life worth? Wot's your wife's life worth?" really seems to me(and my wife) that you are implying exactly what you claim to not be saying.

And that is that you will crash if you do not have a steering damper on your bike.

Again, if a damper on your steering makes you happy, run one. I find that many bikes, my Guzzis included, work just fine with out one. And what someone else thinks is not my concern. I have stated that it is a matter of personal preference, and as such your personal preference is not a factor to me. I can make up my own mind.

This statement is also one of personal preference, not fact.

"and by my own experience, I ALSO know that I can improve both handling and control with a steering damper!"

It may be that to you a damper on your steering improves handling and control. But personally, I find that without a steering damper I have better feedback from the front tyre, lighter steering feel, and a faster turn in. You worry about crashing due to a tank slapper, and that could happen. Having a steering damper does reduce(but not eliminate) that risk. But that is not the only way you can crash. I am not some amazingly talented rider(maybe my wife is) but yet I(we) have not even had a glimpse of a headshake problem on either of our Guzzis. I have crashed a bike during a headshake issue, but that bike had a steering damper. But that was a TLR1000 on a racetrack, and it was my fault, not the bikes. The tankslapper was a reaction to me writting a check I could not cash.

Again, since you seem to think I am saying otherwise, If you prefer the way your bike feels with a damper on its steering, run a steering damper. I choose not to because I prefer the way it feels without one.

Please do not infer that I am making a mistake by doing so

PS. Do you have any idea how many and what types of bikes are sold and ridden without a steering damper? Even Buells, with their agressive geometry, do not come with a steering damper.

[Guest ratchethack]

There's no point here in matching logic, rational thinking, experience-based opinions of the Pro's, and common sense against the complete absence thereof. There are motorcycles sold without steering dampers. This somehow means that steering dampers are useless -- not only on these, but on all other motorcycles, including Guzzi's, which ARE sold with them installed?? To the best of my knowledge, Buells are also sold without insurance. Does this mean that not only is insurance useless on Buells, but on Moto Guzzi's too??

 

I'm all done here.

 

'Bye now.

[Pierre]

There's no point here in matching logic, rational thinking, and common sense against the complete absence thereof.

So true. Use mirror. Repeat.

I'm all done here.

Yea ... and Santa Claus is coming for x-mas.

 

'Bye now.

It's NEVER bye with you. More's the pity. Seems the less you know about a topic, the louder and "more often" you get. Give it a rest. Let people who know what they're talking about discuss matters for awhile. I'm here to learn ... not to listen to you bellow your inanities.

[dlaing]

[emphasis added]

 

Only in some other language than English. Ratch' has it right when he has the pic of the guy riding thru a creek captioned "this is a steering dampener."

Which of these are correct:

1. Dampers dampen oscillations.

2. Dampeners dampen oscillations.

3. Dampers damp oscillations.

4. Dampeners damp oscillations.

 

 

If I understand the definitions correctly then the answer is:

Number 1, and the others are incorrect.

But I think it is really nit-picking and hope that someday all four become correct.

I kind of think 2 and 3 are more consistent.

English is a bastardized language, and devolution is in full motion.