Longer lasting cush drive material available

[Guest mountainmotor]

One of the current Suzuki showroom stock motorcycles beats the cush drive rubbers up in as little as 4000 street miles . A good number of racers from around the world are now running 300-600+ hp with these engines and the OEM cush drives don't last so long at all in that severe service duty .

 

One of the problems it seems was shrinkage of the shelved material or cush drive rubber part over time . Another is that old type rubber don't stand up to grease and other elements .

 

A gentleman and racer that lives in Germany has made a mold , worked with a material supplier and came up with not only a proper fitting set of cush piece"s" , they are of a material thats lasts longer and comes at cost of not much more above OEM over the counter pricing .

 

I have contacted him and we both agree that making these 12 pieces for the V11 for the "better" would require measuring a wheel hub , not just making a mold of a new OEM piece of unknown age and possible small bit of deterioration due to age from the get go .

 

Question before trying to get a Guzzi hub to him for measuring and while he's getting some pricing together. Is there a market for a different than OEM set of 12 "twelve" cushdrive pieces of probably one production run only and if so, how many worldwide ?

 

Example photo removed

[raz]

Question before trying to get a Guzzi hub to him for measuring and while he's getting some pricing together. Is there a market for a different than OEM set of 12 "twelve" cushdrive pieces of probably one production run only and if so, how many worldwide ?

Don't count on three-digit x 12 figures... but count me in! Also, be sure to spread the word in other territories, like http://morini.com.au/phpBB2/

[Guest ratchethack]

MM, last July there was an astounding 19 page thread on V11 cush drives that was sparked-off by long-time Guzzi aficionado, author of Guzzi Big Twins (and other fine books), Moto International partner, and Forum regular extraordinaire, Greg Fields' excellent how-to post. Greg provided us with a very well done photo-doc on the decades-long practice of drilling the stock Guzzi cush drive blocks to soften them up for a smoother driveline, smoother shifting, and improved clutch hub spline, driveshaft spline, wheel hub spline, transmission, and U-joint wear.

 

I use the term, "astounding" in reference to that thread, because of the ensuing brouhaha and remarkably persistent inexperienced, raw speculation in that thread that erupted over the proposal of a "better" alternative material for the Guzzi cush drive, that as far as anyone knows, has never existed, and ALSO as far as anyone knows, has no justifiable expectation for a reason to exist.

 

Greg's procedure and the aforementioned astounding thread may be found here:

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...hl=cush%20drive

 

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the simple, quick, effective, decades-proven, and zero-cost practice of drilling the Guzzi cush drive rubber blocks that likely started around 40 years ago has been anything other than an ideal modification, with no justification whatseover for "improvement". Also, as far as anyone knows, there have never been any well documented cases (or undocumented, for that matter) of many Pro's and Guzzisti of all stripes doing this, or just plain servicing their cush drives all over the planet, of any problems with the original material in a V11 cush drive as far as decomposition, shrinkage, hardening, or less than ideal performance symptoms (of the material itself) of any other kind -- drilled or not drilled -- let alone examples of them being "beaten up" in any way, shape, or form.

 

Since most of us here are running somewhere short of ~80 RWHP, under not anything like racing conditions, it would seem less than a good use of our efforts to explore a solution to a problem that existed only on another motorcycle, a racing motorcycle at that, not to mention one subjecting its cush drive to, as you indicated, over 7 times the HP.

 

I might point out again that several posters have indicated that they believe (completely incorrectly) that all "rubber" is a monolithic substance such as a pure element, with the implication that because "rubber decomposes" that "all rubber decomposes equally". Again, this is the fallacious equivalent of saying that all metal has the same properties!

 

So I wouldn't consider the cost in terms of time and effort to conduct due diligence in terms of requisite R&D on a part for an ultra-tiny market, where no existing problem -- or room for improvement -- has been identified in the first place, to be a good investment -- that is, unless you consider a very likely zero-upside risk of such an investment, and a 100% writeoff as a total loss justifiable as a "hobby".

 

But then again, that's just me.

[guzzijack]

+1 on that.

 

No need for an 'unobtabium' solution to a non-existant problem. A 6mm drill will sort it.

 

BTW. Any chance you can provide us with some details of how these Suzukis are getting 300 - 600+hp it sounds fantastic! (probably is then!).

 

GJ

[Pierre]

Question before trying to get a Guzzi hub to him for measuring and while he's getting some pricing together. Is there a market for a different than OEM set of 12 "twelve" cushdrive pieces of probably one production run only and if so, how many worldwide ?

 

Example photo

I'm in for two sets.

 

As to a business case, I assume if the numbers are sufficient there's a buisness case. If they aren't, there isn't.

 

Thanks for taking this on. Hope the numbers are sufficient to warrant the effort. I trust that those who aren't interested in your improvements will simply sit on their keyboards and let you ping the market free from the previous endless arrogant drivel some felt compelled to spew forth the last time this topic was broached.

 

It's off to a rocky start. Guess we'll find out if Jaap's message has a shelf life.

[dlaing]

Come on, get real with this:

 

 

 

How many Guzzis, (circa 90rwhp max), are 'beating' their cush drives in as little as '4000 street miles'? This troll is reeling you in big time.

 

The best thing Jaap can do in this case is to kick him into touch, soonest...... oh but let's see, he's a very long standing member of the forum........ joined on 8th February and the date of his posting is ............9th February........... hmmmmm TROLL

 

GJ

Jack, not a nice way to treat the new guy.

Polyurethane has obvious advantages over rubber.

This is clearly not a TROLL but someone who wants to make a contribution to the Guzzi community.

Hopefully your hostility has not scared him off.

If you retract your post I will retract mine....hopefully before the whole forum gets shut down.

[guzzijack]

Itchy trigger finger maybe because I don't need any for my sub 600 bhp bikes.

 

GJ

[savagehenry]

Hey MM, I think the old addeges are old because they are often right. So I offer this, "If you build it, they will come." I personally don't desire a pad change. When I did my first set of tires, the cushdrive was cleaned and re-lubed, and I could not believe the difference! And I have the full set of six, not drilled, in my 90+/- horse Nero. My MG dealer, who is VERY knowledgeble, and a great mechanic too, says he has never seen the need for a different pad, so I defer to his word on longevity of this part. But I think that previous pad thread shows there is a portion of folks who would buy just because they "are better." Thanks for any attempt to improve our rides, Later, S.H.

[Guest ratchethack]

"If you build it, they will come."

Good point, SH. There's certainly this to consider.

 

After all, in the hard-scrabble, wacky moto aftermarket, where shiny, purple-anodized billet replacement cosmetic bits sell for ten times the markup on new motorcycles themselves all day long, mighty strange things happen. . .

 

I'm startin' to come around to the idea of a market winner here.

 

Packaged in a nice, big, tricolore blister-pak card, and molded with brightly colored tricolore blocks, with a claim of "High Performance RACING Guzzi Cush Drive!" emblazoned on the card, with a photo of a drag bike launch on the card, lots of tire smoke, and perhaps an endorsement from a racing team campaigning a monster 600 HP tire-shredding, ground pounding "High-Abuser", you might just have a winner.

 

The big fly in the ointment here, of course, is that after it's installed, it's not the kinda blingery that y'er garden variety squid can show off in a parking lot or boulevard parade, since the blocks are well buried in the wheel hub. But if you sold it with a pair o' nice exclusive-looking tricolore stickers to put on the fairing for advertisement. . .

 

Pricing would be key. You might have to put it up there in the same category with ultra-go-fast blingery, or it'd just get ignored. I'm thinking $300-400 USD for the set. The old high threshold to entry exclusivity illusion, y'unnerstan'. . .

 

If this takes off, you could next market a $500 USD titanium wheel bearing spacer, followed by $900 ceramic wheel bearing sets, with a guarantee of reducing the unsprung weight of the rear wheel and hub from ~38 lbs. to ~37 lbs, 15.8 oz (avdp). . . That's a great walloping savings of unsprung weight of 00.03%, or .2 oz., about the weight of road grime wot you'd wash off the wheel, bevel drive, and swingarm assembly after a day's ride.

 

Hey -- It could happen!

 

. . . somewhere . . .

 

EDIT: I've added the weight of the bevel drive (~20 lb.) to the weight of the wheel (~18 lb.) to get a more correct unsprung weight of ~38 lb. for the rear wheel/hub assembly. I hadn't included the unsprung weight of the brake caliper and stay, spindle, torque arm, driveshaft, or the swingarm itself, which might be expected to bring us up to somewhere in the neighborhood of 45-50 lbs. of rear unsprung weight.

[Guest mountainmotor]

After lurking for a few months before joining , reading about members being on probation , I can't say that I am surprised at a couple comments thats been made here . I guess I dare not enter the engine ping topic to tell of my experience with the LeMans engine ping at 5k RPM along with how I tricked the ECU for the fix . Being a new guy here and being just a troll and all I don't suppose any help is needed . Strike the word needed and replace with wanted

 

What I can say is that the work hardening terminolgogy used in metalurgy is also used in the elastomer industry and that not one word from me was ever written about a harder replacement part to replace only the same-same .

 

One of my other bikes , a 160hp stock motorcycle sees much mountain riding and being in tune with it I am able to tell when I have fragged the cush drive inserts . It is not the HP as much as it's the weigth of the machine when loaded with passenger and gear making for right at 990lbs of rolling mass in which causes the extreme heat when constantly on and off the throttle with gear changes and engine braking, making for a chalky cush insert fitting loose in it's cradle so, when I went inside the LeMans it was clear there was not only a certain amount of driveline lash built into the machine in two places that cannot be managed in terms of reducing driveline lash from crafting newer components , there clearly was room for improvement in another area .

 

It is *fact that some race parts engineered on race day trickles down to the production models . Some may say parts developed to help hi hp race bikes stop rolling the chain over the countershaft is not needed on lower HP models with haft drive . Those will be the one's not looking outside the box at the merits of the multifunctional design .

 

So , it seems *fact there is simply no interest in a modern eurethane type shell injected with another and newer type polymer with the synergistic effect being the outer layer is impervious to heat and chemicals and road elements while the inner mareral having ability to absorb shock better than a brick . Never the mind the adage of if it's not the boss's idea , it's not a good one . I will continue and have a one off set made soon . $30.00 USD will be the cost to me.

 

The majority has spoke and even DELETED so thats it from me on this topic . A topic I now regret even making as it brought out the side of name calling people that only hurts the good guys in the end . I should have just made the parts and went on with it like I've done much of my life because pointlessly arguing on the internet with a person calling me a TROLL is not something I will lower myself to .

[Guest mountainmotor]

BTW. Any chance you can provide us with some details of how these Suzukis are getting 300 - 600+hp it sounds fantastic! (probably is then!).

 

GJ

 

Handing competition engine building secrets out ? Not on my life . These guys I know make a living at it . I will though give you this to chew on , since your calling it a lie .

 

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/moun...ttleover700.jpg

 

 

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/moun...8636hp330tq.jpg

 

 

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...ideoID=26056560

[dlaing]

If you can get me a set for under $40, count me in.

[Pierre]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...ideoID=26056560

A jeez - I don't know if I'd have the balls (pun intended) to straddle something spinning that hard and fast. Do they have a frag plate in there? Fun stuff. Thanks for the link.

 

I confess that for those of us trying to crack 90 HP it's a reality check to be reminded of what modern motors are capable of. Won't stop us, of course. I suppose we pursue Guzzi HP just as relentlessly as the Hyabusa guys. It may be a smaller cup we're filling (hey, NO PUN INTENDED), but by god we'll give it full measure!

[GuzziMoto]

Ignore Ratchet. If you've been lurking for any length of time then you know he's like that. And for GuzziJack, I'm sorry you're unaware of what's going on in the rest of the bike world. The Dec '07 issue of Motorcyclist has a profile on the Hayabusa that won the '07 Brute Horsepower Shootout at Daytona Bikeweek. 648 horsepower. I know you're not from around here, so I can understand you not being aware of what's going on here, but do a little research before you call someone a liar.

I like the idea of a cheap way to improve the way my guzzi works. Maybe the trick setup would be to drill holes in these urathane(or whatever they are made from) cush drive blocks. Or would they be softer to begin with. That seems to be the problem with the stock ones, they're to hard.

[dlaing]

If this takes off, you could next market a $500 USD titanium wheel bearing spacer, followed by $900 ceramic wheel bearing sets, with a guarantee of reducing the unsprung weight of the rear hub from 20 lbs. to 19 lbs, 15.98 oz (avdp). . .

With math and analytical skills like yours...it is a small wonder we always find ourselves in disagreement.

Last I checked ceramic bearings were going for about double the price of the standard SKF and saved a lot more than .02 ounces, and my $40 aerospace alloy bearing spacer probably saved over three ounces over OEM and maybe six ounces over what some were recommending to replace the overly short stock bearing spacer.

How are your drilled and lubed "chrome-moly" hard cush bushings doing old chum?