My Newly Acquired Rosso Mandello

[Scotch]

You Folks were so great on my rocker spacer question, I thought I would ask for some advice.

 

I have just got my first Guzzi (Rosso Mandello V11) and I want to go through it from front to back.

I want to share my checklist of things to do and get your comments.

I bought this bike from an Estate, from folks who dont ride or know anything about bikes. So, I really dont know anything about previous maintenance.

The bike has about 7000 miles on it.

Did I mention I have never owned a Guzzi before?

 

Replace Air Filter = DONE

Replace Fuel Filter = DONE

Replace Spark Plugs = DONE

Adjust Valves / Torque heads = DONE

Change out all Hydraulic Fluids = DONE

 

Change Oil Filter (and do that mod)

Install Roper Plate

Change Gearbox Oil

Change Transmission Oil

Lube Drive Shaft

Change Front Fork Oil

Adjust Front and Rear Suspension

 

 

That is what I have so far - What am I missing?

 

Thanks - Scott

[Guest ratchethack]

Scott, I just ran this up against the 6K mi. factory service schedule for a 2000 Sport, which should be identical for a RM.

 

You've covered most of the main stuff above.

Bleeding brake and clutch fluid with new fluid is a biggie. I wouldn't miss this one.

It calls for a re-torque of frame/motor mounts, axle & pinch bolts, shift & brake linkage, brake calipers and brake stay.

Lube side stand. I'd also throw in shift lever shaft and brake lever shaft, neither of which are listed.

 

As something additional to think about, I'd keep in mind that your bike is nowhere near broken in yet, and she'll continue to loosen up (and sweeten up) for at least another 10K mi. Mine didn't stop loosening up until up around 20K.

 

As a break-in procedure, I've always been 100% successful following the break-in techniques more recently proven and refined by MotoMan. YIKES! I did some quick searching and can't find MotoMan's site!

 

I think that's about it.

[Scotch]

Yeah,

I ran a whole bottle of fluid through those three reservoirs and the stuff that came out the other end was not pretty!!

 

I put new tires and retorqued the front and real spindles and brake mounting bolts and checked the pads and tightened the triple tree head bolt.

 

Motor mounts? Frame bolts? Ihavent even thought about THAT yet.

 

Thanks again

 

I wont mention the pinch bolt whose torque I misread.

Took a trip to autozone, an easyout, and a new pinch bolt to finish the front.

[Guest ratchethack]

Scott, I found MotoMan again. IMHO, Guzzi's everywhere may thank MM for the sake of making the very best long-term performance out of new and rebuilt motors -- the man's site is still goin' strong.

 

I've successfully used the techniques he's proven, refined, and documented here with 100% success on literally dozens of new and rebuilt motors for more decades than many hereabouts have been sucking air. Including the Guzzi, which runs as strong, as smooth, and without noticable use of oil as anyone could wish for.

 

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

Highly recommended, comprehensively proven over time, and very significant. Just do it.

[Scotch]

So...

This is telling me that I need to ride like He...ck.

(Like I normally do)

 

Do I also have to slow down and cool off, or can I skip that part?

 

[GuzziMoto]

MotoMan's advice is good, but he does not understand heat cycling at all. It has nothing to do with "heat treating" and everything to do with the fact that when metal parts heat up they expand, then when they cool back down they contract.

But aside from that it is good advice. Not exactly how I do my own stuff, but I'm sure if you follow his advice you'll be fine.

[Guest ratchethack]

MotoMan's advice is good, but he does not understand heat cycling at all. It has nothing to do with "heat treating" and everything to do with the fact that when metal parts heat up they expand, then when they cool back down they contract.

But aside from that it is good advice. Not exactly how I do my own stuff, but I'm sure if you follow his advice you'll be fine.

GM, just curious. How is your understanding of heat cycling different from MotoMan's?

 

Here's what he says about heat cycling, from the link above:

What about "heat cycling" the engine ??

 

There is no need to "heat cycle" a new engine. The term "heat cycle" comes from the idea that the new engine components are being "heat treated" as the engine is run. Heat treating the metal parts is a very different process, and it's already done at the factory before the engines are assembled. The temperatures required for heat treating are much higher than an engine will ever reach during operation.

 

The idea of breaking the engine in using "heat cycles" is a myth that came from the misunderstanding of the concept of "heat treating".

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know)

[tmcafe]

Scott, I found MotoMan again. IMHO, Guzzi's everywhere may thank MM for the sake of making the very best long-term performance out of new and rebuilt motors -- the man's site is still goin' strong.

 

I've successfully used the techniques he's proven, refined, and documented here with 100% success on literally dozens of new and rebuilt motors for more decades than many hereabouts have been sucking air. Including the Guzzi, which runs as strong, as smooth, and without noticable use of oil as anyone could wish for.

 

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

Highly recommended, comprehensively proven over time, and very significant. Just do it.

RH, since you bring up the break-in, maybe you could elaborate a bit, as it seems to me that the slow, long term kind (10k miles and over), and motoman's main idea (beat the crap out of the engine at all revs up to redline in the first 20 miles or so, on clean oil) are different things. From what I remember, motoman insists that the very first couple dozen miles are critical, after which there's not much you can do to make a difference. This kind of goes with what Greg told me about what happens at the factory before the bikes get shipped--the guys there ride the shit out of them (that's why Greg told me not to worry about the high revs when I asked him before I took the bike for a spin). OTOH, I know that many have noticed bikes getting better with mileage way past 10k. So what gives?

 

Sorry if my question shows crass ignorance , but I want to understand.

[Guest ratchethack]

TmCafe, IMHO this is a great Q. Nothin' "crass" here, with the possible exception of Yours Truly!

 

Yes, you're looking at 2 different things -- The critical "window of opportunity" to break it in properly, and the miles generally it takes the cross-hatch pattern on the nickasil bore and the piston rings to complete the process of fully wearing in, per the MotoMan technique.

 

Yes, MotoMan suggests (and I happen to subscribe to this 100%) that the most critical phase of break-in is the first few dozen miles, tapering off from there. After that "window of opportunity" closes, the horse has left the barn, so to speak.

 

The reason I bring it up in Scott's case is the same reason I bring it up whenever break-in comes up -- to get the word out, because I think It's extremetly important, and I just HATE to see a perfectly good new motor go to waste! Now Scott may or may not have access to the break-in history of his PO'd Guzzi. Many purchasing a PO'd bike do. I count myself among them on my Guzzi. In fact, having high confidence in the PO's credible account of what amounted to a "MotoMan-like" break-in was one of the primary reasons I purchased it half broken in.

 

I also like to bring up the MotoMan break-in technique because of high number of persistent "Old Wive's Tales" about following factory break-in recommendations, and (even worse) continuing to "baby it until it's broken in" -- both of which typically nearly always result in a situation where it CAN'T be broken in, at least without a cylinder hone to break the cylinder glaze and/or a complete ring job to start the process over to get another shot at the "window".

 

What can Scott do now? If possible, discover how the bike was (or was not) broken in. Should it be determined with confidence that it was broken in per something resembling the MM technique, rest assurred that he can continue to ride it just about any way he wants with confidence, expecting it to continue to loosen up for at least another 10K miles. I'd never "baby it" during any phase of break in -- even later stages -- but that's just me. Should it be determined with confidence that it was NOT broken in properly, he should not be surprised, but should understand what's happening when he notices it burning oil, blowing oil thru the condensor into the airbox, and developing considerably less compression (and therefore less power) than might be expected.

 

BAA, TJM, though I doubt if anybody's actual M is gonna V too much on this one.

[GuzziMoto]

GM, just curious. How is your understanding of heat cycling different from MotoMan's?

 

Here's what he says about heat cycling, from the link above:

What about "heat cycling" the engine ??

 

There is no need to "heat cycle" a new engine. The term "heat cycle" comes from the idea that the new engine components are being "heat treated" as the engine is run. Heat treating the metal parts is a very different process, and it's already done at the factory before the engines are assembled. The temperatures required for heat treating are much higher than an engine will ever reach during operation.

 

The idea of breaking the engine in using "heat cycles" is a myth that came from the misunderstanding of the concept of "heat treating".

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know)

In the post you quoted it says a couple of times that heat cycling comes from "heat treating" which involves high temps and has to do with modifying the structure of the metal to change it's properties. The heat cycling I know has to do with the principle that metal expands when heated and contracts when cooled down. A simple shaped part will probably be the exact same size and shape afterwards as it was before. A more complex shape like a piston may not, do to things like uneven heating and expansion due to differences in thicknesses and shape. Think of it as letting the parts that get hot "take a set" before you pound on them. You don't have to subscribe to this theory. I have no scientific testing to support it. But it has served me well over the past 20 years with everything from GP bikes and high strung Ducati's to a Buell Blast.

[GuzziMoto]

RH, since you bring up the break-in, maybe you could elaborate a bit, as it seems to me that the slow, long term kind (10k miles and over), and motoman's main idea (beat the crap out of the engine at all revs up to redline in the first 20 miles or so, on clean oil) are different things. From what I remember, motoman insists that the very first couple dozen miles are critical, after which there's not much you can do to make a difference. This kind of goes with what Greg told me about what happens at the factory before the bikes get shipped--the guys there ride the shit out of them (that's why Greg told me not to worry about the high revs when I asked him before I took the bike for a spin). OTOH, I know that many have noticed bikes getting better with mileage way past 10k. So what gives?

 

Sorry if my question shows crass ignorance , but I want to understand.

Breaking in the rings is a seperate issue from the idea that a Guzzi is built from larger, more over sized parts that may not fit together as well as a typical Japanese motor. This leads to the premise(of which I subscribe) that a Guzzi has not fully broken in until it has 5-10k or more miles under it's belt. The idea is that these larger, less precisely fitting parts need longer to wear in to match each other. Thus becoming a smoother running machine as the miles stack up. It doesn't mean you should baby the bike for the first 5-10k miles. It means that the bike will improve with age. So ride it how you want it to be ridden and enjoy.

[Guest ratchethack]

In the post you quoted it says a couple of times that heat cycling comes from "heat treating" which involves high temps and has to do with modifying the structure of the metal to change it's properties. The heat cycling I know has to do with the principle that metal expands when heated and contracts when cooled down. A simple shaped part will probably be the exact same size and shape afterwards as it was before. A more complex shape like a piston may not, do to things like uneven heating and expansion due to differences in thicknesses and shape. Think of it as letting the parts that get hot "take a set" before you pound on them. You don't have to subscribe to this theory. I have no scientific testing to support it. But it has served me well over the past 20 years with everything from GP bikes and high strung Ducati's to a Buell Blast.

With all due respect, GM, yours is an entirely incorrect interpretation. If you read his words carefully, he says the complete opposite:

. . .The term "heat cycle" comes from the idea that the new engine components are being "heat treated" as the engine is run.

 

Heat treating the metal parts is a very different process, and it's already done at the factory before the engines are assembled. The temperatures required for heat treating are much higher than an engine will ever reach during operation.

 

The idea of breaking the engine in using "heat cycles" is a myth that came from the misunderstanding of the concept of "heat treating".

In other words, he's saying that "the idea" of new engine components being "heat treated" by "heat cycling" is a myth.

 

When you suggest that complex parts may take on a different shape after repeat heating and cooling and to think of it as, "letting the parts that get hot "take a set" before you pound on them", it sounds like you're saying the complete opposite of what MotoMan is saying -- that is, that "heat treating" the parts is what happens when parts are heat cycled in use. Sorry, I can't agree with this one, my friend.

[GuzziMoto]

To which I say, "heat treating" has nothing to do with heat cycling. It is a different concept altogether. That is why I do not agree with him on that. My concept of heat cycling is not based on some myth that engine parts heat treat themselves while in use. Therefore his comment dismissing the idea of heat cycling is wrong in my opinion, because he is basing it on a lack of understanding of what heat cycling is. If you said it was wrong because you had proof that engine parts do not change size when heated and cooled, that would be one thing. But he says heat cycling is wrong because engines do not generate enough heat to "heat treat" parts, which has nothing to do with heat cycling.

Sorry, I am sick right know and cannot think any more about this at the moment. If you still don't see my point, maybe we'll get back to it later.

[tmcafe]

Should it be determined with confidence that it was broken in per something resembling the MM technique, rest assurred that he can continue to ride it just about any way he wants with confidence, expecting it to continue to loosen up for at least another 10K miles.

 

Should it be determined with confidence that it was NOT broken in properly, he should not be surprised, but should understand what's happening when he notices it burning oil, blowing oil thru the condensor into the airbox, and developing considerably less compression (and therefore power) than otherwise.

Thanks for the comments RH. I see your point.

 

Hopefully the latter discovery won't be the case. In fact, what Greg said (about factory guys having a blast riding the bikes right off the assembly line) sounded like common practice, so hopefully it happened to all our bikes. Kind of like Mandello-style motoman break-in. "Moto-uomo" I guess...

[Tracey]

Scotch:

Did you clean those brake assemblies well before reinstalling when you check the brake pads? The rear brake assembly has a tendency to drag when dirty...