How hot is too hot!

[ALdad]

I am planning a trip this summer I know some of the roads I plan on riding are going to be blazing hot. I just read Dr Gil's trip log ,redwoods to baja,someday I hope to have an opportunity to do a trip like that!.Any way he described a overheating incident that made me think about my planned trip. What acctually happens when the bike gets too hot? I guess a thermo sensor of sorts shuts the motor off to avoig damage ? What is the opperating range of a V11, at what oil or cylinder temp does shut down or MELT down occurs. Any tips on 100+degree riding. Any favorite hot weather riding gear that actually has some protection. Cheer!! Alan

[Guest ratchethack]

Alan, FWIW, I've ridden out on the Mojave and thru Borrego for many hours at a stretch in temps up to 120 F with no overheating symptoms wotsoever. There's no sensor-driven "intelligent" auto shut-off. The thermo-valve that feeds the oil cooler will open at the right temp to ensure that as long as you keep decent speeds up, for the most part, you won't have to worry about it. It's only when you're stuck in traffic or for some other reason not able to get adequate air flow that you need to be concerned. These things are substantially over-finned and pretty well protected against heat.

 

As far as the symptoms of overheating? The only symptom I've ever heard of on a V11 is vapor lock. Yep, I've had it a few times meself. This being a "fail safe" situation -- that is, it won't run (or re-start) as long as fuel is vaporized in the fuel circuit (fuel line or fuel pump), it's sort of a built-in protection scheme. Todd Eagan over at GuzziTech has characterized the V11 donk as a "fuel cooled" motor. This makes a lot of sense to me. My interpretation is that as long as it doesn't vapor-lock while running, the latent heat of vaporization achieved by the atomization of fuel at the injectors will keep it cool enough to run without risk of heat damage -- as long as you have adequate air flow. But as soon as you shut 'er down (or allow it to stall) long enough to allow the fuel circuit to heat-soak, you could be in for a half-hour cool-down before she'll be able to condense the fuel again and re-fire.

[ALdad]

Alan, FWIW, I've ridden out on the Mojave and thru Borrego in temps for many hours at a stretch up to 120 F with no overheating symptoms wotsoever. There's no sensor-driven "intelligent" auto shut-off. The thermo-valve that feeds the oil cooler will open at the right temp to ensure that as long as you keep decent speeds up, for the most part, you won't have to worry about it. It's only when you're stuck in traffic or for some other reason not able to get adequate air flow that you need to be concerned. These things are substantially over-finned and pretty well protected against heat.

 

As far as the symptoms of overheating? The only symptom I've ever heard of on a V11 is vapor lock. Yep, I've had it a few times meself. This being a "fail safe" situation -- that is, it won't run (or re-start) as long as fuel is vaporized in the fuel circuit (fuel line or fuel pump), it's sort of a built-in protection scheme. Todd Eagan over at GuzziTech has characterized the V11 donk as a "fuel cooled" motor. This makes a lot of sense to me. My interpretation is that as long as it doesn't vapor-lock while running, the latent heat of vaporization achieved by the atomization of of fuel at the injectors will keep it cool enough to run without risk of heat damage -- as long as you have adequate air flow. But as soon as you shut 'er down (or allow it to stall) long enough to allow the fuel circuit to heat-soak, you could be in for a half-hour cool-down before she'll be able to condense the fuel again and re-fire.

I had the vapor lock experience once and it started later. I rerouted the fuel line off the cylinder I hope this took care of it. I guess the overheating in traffic and subsequent shut down referred to in the travel thread must have been a vapor lock. I was'nt aware that this could happen when the bike was still runnig and fuel was moving through the system. It's nice to know this ,I hope my fuel line reroute will avoid this happening again. The bike is the color of an Alien (we all know their all green) I don't think it is too far out for me to assume it would have a superior level of intelligence of it's own. WERE NOT ALONE!!

[raz]

I think a primary risk is the oil getting so hot it gets permanently destroyed - and that could have secondary effects on the engine if not replaced in due time. I have a dipstick thermometer. Looks nice and lets me check oil temp if I'm worried (the only times I have been worried was in severe traffic jams in hot weather).

 

 

I think approaching the end of this scale (130°C or 265°F) will destroy the oil. But as long as you're moving I don't think there is much to worry about.

[GuzziMoto]

If you do get stuck in traffic under high heat conditions, the first sign of over heating that I'm aware of is engine knock. Particularly when taking off from a stop at low engine rpm's the engine will knock where it did not do so before. That is a sign your engine is too hot. It does happen although I agree the Guzzi layout is not prone to it happening. When the motor gets that hot the oil may be breaking down as previously mentioned. But I have never felt the need to change the oil over it(but that would not be a bad thing to do).

[Mike Stewart]

Alan,

 

I don't think you have to worry about hi temperture riding with the Guzzi. The sport versions all have a engine oil cooler with thermostat which should be suficient in keeping the oil temp where is should be. If you get stuck in traffic when the temperture is 90 plus, let the heat between your legs be the judge of when the bike is getting hot. I know many of my bikes will start running sluggish when stuck in traffic, either find a way to get some air flow (different route) or find a place to take a break.

 

I had the brilliant idea to take Route 66 one time in California to 29 Palms. At 10 am. the temperture was 113 degrees. Two up, fully loaded and in full leathers. Now I know why there are only ghost towns left on that part of Route 66. It was sooo hot, I thought the tires were going to melt

 

 

I seem to always go back to full leathers whether it is wet or hot. Even in the triple digits if you are moving full leathers aren't bad. I sweat pretty good and I have had the chills in 120 degrees while riding at 80 mph (on the boarder of Mexico and California). Drink plenty of water and always carry a bottle or two of drinking water with you. If you know you are going to be riding in the heat, plan ahead and leave early when traveling, I like to start my day by leaving before sun rise to get a jump on the heat.

 

Have fun,

Mike

 

 

 

I am planning a trip this summer I know some of the roads I plan on riding are going to be blazing hot. I just read Dr Gil's trip log ,redwoods to baja,someday I hope to have an opportunity to do a trip like that!.Any way he described a overheating incident that made me think about my planned trip. What acctually happens when the bike gets too hot? I guess a thermo sensor of sorts shuts the motor off to avoig damage ? What is the opperating range of a V11, at what oil or cylinder temp does shut down or MELT down occurs. Any tips on 100+degree riding. Any favorite hot weather riding gear that actually has some protection. Cheer!! Alan

[dlaing]

Humidity has a big a effect on hot weather comfort, or lack there of.

In 110 degree desert heat leather with moderate ventilation seems to work fine, as long as you are moving.

A white tee shirt over black leather is not a bad idea.

I theorize that in dry desert heat too much ventilation, such as what is found in mesh suits, can be a bad thing as I SUSPECT it may dehydrate you more quickly. This is however to my knowledge unproven.

Mesh suits work great in hot humid conditions.

Cycleport aka Motoport makes Kevlar mesh suits.

http://www.motoport.com/

As far as I know they are the only mesh suits that are anywhere near as tough as leather.

Their Kevlar suits also breath pretty well according to a riding buddy, and their advertising.

Perforated leather is another option.

I use Sidi Vertigo Corsa Air boots and I am very happy with them.

They are comfortable a little below 60F and of course at far higher temperatures than non-perforated boots.

In retrospect I should have saved money and bought the Sidi Vertigo Air. The Vertigo Corsa Air fit more snuggly, but take longer to get in and out of.

[ALdad]

Humidity has a big a effect on hot weather comfort, or lack there of.

In 110 degree desert heat leather with moderate ventilation seems to work fine, as long as you are moving.

A white tee shirt over black leather is not a bad idea.

I theorize that in dry desert heat too much ventilation, such as what is found in mesh suits, can be a bad thing as I SUSPECT it may dehydrate you more quickly. This is however to my knowledge unproven.

Mesh suits work great in hot humid conditions.

Cycleport aka Motoport makes Kevlar mesh suits.

http://www.motoport.com/

As far as I know they are the only mesh suits that are anywhere near as tough as leather.

Their Kevlar suits also breath pretty well according to a riding buddy, and their advertising.

Perforated leather is another option.

I use Sidi Vertigo Corsa Air boots and I am very happy with them.

They are comfortable a little below 60F and of course at far higher temperatures than non-perforated boots.

In retrospect I should have saved money and bought the Sidi Vertigo Air. The Vertigo Corsa Air fit more snuggly, but take longer to get in and out of.

I looked at the cycleport kevlar. The custom option looks like the ticket for me. Thanx for the tip.

[Steve G.]

I think a primary risk is the oil getting so hot it gets permanently destroyed - and that could have secondary effects on the engine if not replaced in due time. I have a dipstick thermometer. Looks nice and lets me check oil temp if I'm worried (the only times I have been worried was in severe traffic jams in hot weather).

 

 

I think approaching the end of this scale (130°C or 265°F) will destroy the oil. But as long as you're moving I don't think there is much to worry about.

 

In extreme overheated conditions, the oil actually burns within the engine. Of course, this will be an issue only if you use the regular "camel sweat" that certain known experts feel is adequete for these engines. This will NEVER be an issue if good quality full synthetic oil is used.

In my experience running my early V11 in very hot [115deg F] conditions, vapour lock only happens when the bike is stopped for about the time it takes to gas up the tank and get a cold drink, about 5-10 minutes. Yes, it will take up to 3/4 hr before it cools off enough to start trouble free again. If only a cold garden hose didn't damage the engine, it would be an instant fix to this issue at a gas station. And yes, you may have prevented yours from doing it by moving the fuel line away from the rear of the left cylinder, the same issue mine had, which it no longer does since I moved the same line.

Steve

[Greg Field]

It never gets really hot here in Seattle. The hottest day I remember here in 14 years was 97-degrees F. A very warm summer day is in the mid-80s F. Here's what I have seen as typical for oil temps on a calibrated thermostaic dipstick on my V11 Ballabio on a day in the 80s F. (all after the machine is fully warmed up):

 

Steady state cruising on the freeway: 100-105 C.

 

Running really hard through the twisties: 125 C.

 

Heavy traffic stop-and-go: 140 C.

 

140 C. is way too hot for yak fat. It's iffy even with top-shelf synths if the oil stays at those temps for long. Even the best oil is cheap compared to, say, a crankshaft. Save the yak fat for your lawnmower . . .

[FuelCooler]

It never gets really hot here in Seattle. The hottest day I remember here in 14 years was 97-degrees F. A very warm summer day is in the mid-80s F. Here's what I have seen as typical for oil temps on a calibrated thermostaic dipstick on my V11 Ballabio on a day in the 80s F. (all after the machine is fully warmed up):

 

Steady state cruising on the freeway: 100-105 C.

 

Running really hard through the twisties: 125 C.

 

Heavy traffic stop-and-go: 140 C.

 

140 C. is way too hot for yak fat. It's iffy even with top-shelf synths if the oil stays at those temps for long. Even the best oil is cheap compared to, say, a crankshaft. Save the yak fat for your lawnmower . . .

 

OK,

You guys have scared me nearly enough to change over to synthetic this summer. What I have done up until now is change my yak fat immediately if I get stuck in stop and go traffic on hot days (which happened to me once last year). The oil probably had 1000 miles on it. It still looked like honey, but I wasn't taking chances.

It looks like 2008 will be a full synthetic year for me.........BRENTTODD as well, if he's reading this thread!

Thanks for the temp readings, gentlemen.

Steve

[dlaing]

Has anyone tried hooking a fan up to oil cooler?

I live in an area where lane splitting is legal, so I am not too concerned, but I was thinking a small fan would do the trick.

 

Is oil the only thing at risk?

What about exhaust valves and piston seizure?

It seems to me that when the exhaust pipes start to glow, you are risking engine damage.

[Guest v11rider]

If you do get stuck in traffic under high heat conditions, the first sign of over heating that I'm aware of is engine knock. Particularly when taking off from a stop at low engine rpm's the engine will knock where it did not do so before. That is a sign your engine is too hot. It does happen although I agree the Guzzi layout is not prone to it happening. When the motor gets that hot the oil may be breaking down as previously mentioned. But I have never felt the need to change the oil over it(but that would not be a bad thing to do).

 

 

I totaly agree. Engine knock IS a sign of overheating. And oil does break up at high temps especially the non synthetic type.

[Guest ratchethack]

Has anyone tried hooking a fan up to oil cooler?

I live in an area where lane splitting is legal, so I am not too concerned, but I was thinking a small fan would do the trick.

 

Is oil the only thing at risk?

What about exhaust valves and piston seizure?

It seems to me that when the exhaust pipes start to glow, you are risking engine damage.

Oh-oh, and Yes.

 

First, the "Yes" part. Not on my Guzzi, but on my XT600 Yamaha single. The PO had overheated this bike, and I bought it as an "intervention/rebuild" project, with a blown head gasket and warped head (from overheating). I did a top-end job and rebuilt the wheels, re-piped, re-jetted, and re-sprung it, did a lot more stuff, etc.. After the rebuild, I added an oil cooler, and used a cooling fan from a Kawa 250, thermo-controlled with an automotive kit with adjustable temp control commonly available for cars. I've set it so the fan comes on when hot, typically when idling at a traffic light after a long 80 mph run, and it shuts off as soon as the oil cools down again, whilst underway. I wired-in an LED indicator on the tiny "dash" next to the speedo so I can see when the fan is on. Exactly as expected, the fan comes on earlier, and stays on longer on a HOT day, and doesn't come on at all when it's cold. I think I've had it in there for 5 years now, and it works like a Champ.

 

Yes, I gave off-hand "what if" consideration to the logistics of doing this on the Guzzi, but didn't because:

 

1. There's no earthly reason for a fan on a V11 in our climate here in San Diego County, unless you refuse to split lanes. I split lanes in traffic, as the law allows. I've even had a CHP (California Highway Patrol) Motor Cop follow me on his Harley whilst splitting lanes for many miles, waving me on to go faster when I noticed him in my mirrors comin' up behind me. No problemo, Occifer! The Guzzi has never overheated, or even come close, even in extended running in temps up to 120F in the desert. Though it has vapor-locked as mentioned previously, this is only after it's been allowed to heat soak after being shut down.

 

2. There's no space to add even a tiny fan behind the oil cooler, even if the oil cooler were to be moved -- even the tiniest fan, and the one I got for the XT600 is the tiniest one I could find, yet way too big.

 

3. Unlike the XT600 and many big singles I know about, the V11 Guzzi's that came from Mandello equipped with oil coolers are also equipped with a thermo-valve in the oil cooling circuit, which bypasses the oil cooler when the engine is cool. It's about as heat-proof as an air-cooled motor gets, and I reckon it's a stretch beyond good enough.

 

Now the "Oh-oh" part. I know wot's comin' here as sure as you do, Dave. I'll wager Pete's infamous barnyard full o' bunyips that you can imagine many ways to overcome the practical limitations of installing a fan behind the oil cooler on your Guzzi as mentioned above. I'm equally certain that we're all about to "learn" as many extremely creative and speculative options as you can dream up, but I don't think there's any earthly way to speculate your way around point #1 above -- unless you're planning to be a traffic cop with your V11 in Mexico City in August?

 

But I ALSO recognize that since the backward/reverse (less is more is less ) cush drive hysteresis hysteria recently got too ridiculous for words to describe, and mercifully died, smothered in the depravity of it's own folly, you need some new speculation fodder to work with now, . . . [sigh] . . . And o' course, wot I've posted here ain't apt to put as much as a tiny dent in a brand-spankin' new Speculation Fest du jour. So by all means -- let 'er rip.

 

So wot'll it be, Dave? V11 water jacketed cylinder barrel conversions? Ducted fans located behind fairings? Water mist sprayers in front o' the oil cooler? There's got to be literally dozens of highly speculative, nonsensical solutions to yet another problem that doesn't exist. . .

[Dr Gil]

I am planning a trip this summer I know some of the roads I plan on riding are going to be blazing hot. I just read Dr Gil's trip log ,redwoods to baja,someday I hope to have an opportunity to do a trip like that!.Any way he described a overheating incident that made me think about my planned trip. What acctually happens when the bike gets too hot? I guess a thermo sensor of sorts shuts the motor off to avoig damage ? What is the opperating range of a V11, at what oil or cylinder temp does shut down or MELT down occurs. Any tips on 100+degree riding. Any favorite hot weather riding gear that actually has some protection. Cheer!! Alan

 

 

I've thought about that "overheating" quite a bit. I do admit to worrying now about taking the Guzzi into very hot areas where I may be forced to idle the bike for any time.

 

What happened was that it was a very hot day (100+ degrees Fahrenheit), idling and waiting to cross over into the U.S. from Baja. Just after I crossed into Calexico the bike started miss severely. I was traveling at maybe 10 m.p.h. After a final belch it quit altogether. I wheeled over to an empty parking space and tried to restart. It wouldn't. After letting it cool for about 1/2 hr. and pouring bottled water over the heads it fired right up. I had no more problems on that trip but avoided hot areas where I might be caught in traffic.

 

However, in re-thinking the incident I'm not now 100% sure that the bike overheated. I had been running for 2 days on Mexican, "regular" gasoline and had just filled up the bike a few miles earlier. So a fresh tank of "unknown" gas. Could have been dirty, could have had water in it, I don't know for sure.

 

I haven't returned to any hot climates since that happened so I can't really say what really happened or if my concern about hot areas is reasonable. I am encouraged that most Guzzi owners have not had many problems with heat.