scura wont start again!

[GED 01]

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12560

 

you may or may not know ive been having lots of trouble getting my scura to start,for more details click on the link to read in full,basically when i pressd the start button all i got was the relays clicking,so i replaced the starter battery and relays,and the bike started fine for the last 3 weeks ive been out on it a couple of times and started it every other day,yesterday i went to work on it everything was ok until i got home i switched f the bike to oped up the garage and when i came to start it the engine turned slowly as though the battery was going flat,i turned of the ignition and tried to start it but all i got was a click from yhe relays and a weird groaning sound fron the solonoid,and the 3rd time i tried it fired up fine.so i tried again and all i get now is the relays clicking,does anyone have any ideas,whats wrong,or help with the following

 

im pretty certain the engine stop switch is ok,also the start button,clutch switch,seem to be working

not sure about the side stand switch

because the relays are cliking would i be right to assume that the fault is somewhere between the relay and solonoid,not from the handlebars to relay.

is there anywhere i can get a good clear wiring diagram,

are there any particular areas that i should be looking at regarding switches wiring that are prone to failure,

if its not a break/fault with the wiring what else should i look at ie ECU?

im at the end off my tether you lads are my last hope i dont earn a lot of money and even if a new of a good garage i couldnt afford to take it in therefore any help is greatley appreciated, ps i did the wiggly bar trick and it didnt work also the bike got a datatool thatcham 1 alarm fitted

[Jap In OZ]

HI Ged,

 

I read your original post, and I have very similair "challenges" with my scura! For me the wiggle trick has worked thus far... Although she didn't wanted to go a couple of weeks ago.. messed around with the relays (since that one wasn't clicking this time, normally no problems there!) and fired right up..

 

It's a bit annoying but I checked all the tips people gave in your original post and could not find anything wrong!

 

Good luck!

 

Cheers

 

Jasper

[emry]

Do you know how to do a voltage drop test? The odd groan from the solenoid is due to low voltage on the primary side, either you have a poor connection on the positive or the ground side of the solenoid. That helped didn't it. A quick voltage drop test can quickly locate the missing volts. I do not have my schematic handy. I will try and find it and see if I can come up with more precise test for you. It my be hit or miss as my Scura is 200 miles away.

 

Wiring Diagrams courtsy of Mr. Carl Allison who is active here. the 1999v11 should be close enough to head you in the right direction.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/sportissimo.html

[GED 01]

cheers for the wiring diagram it will be a great help

 

i have a multimetr but how do you do a drop test???

 

which is the primary side??? positve side ground side,,,not sure what you mean,,,as youcan tell by my experiance its going to be a long weekend

[grossohc]

Could it be the alarm fitted draining the battery!!!!!

[GED 01]

Could it be the alarm fitted draining the battery!!!!!

no the battery is brand new and unlike the previous battery is in perfect health,but thats not to say that the alarm may be interfering with the wiring somehow and preventing it from starting.ive now got a good wiring diagram and multimeter,tomorrow i shallremove the tank and bodywork and start by checking the switches ,and work my way through the electrics,

i was just wanting to know of any specific areas that may be prone to failure,like the 2 conectors under the tank,anyhow thanks for the replies so far

[moscowphil]

If the bike shows all the symptoms of a flat battery (which it does), but you know the battery isn't flat (are you absolutely sure it isn't?) , then the problem must lie in the circuit which is carrying the current from the battery to the solenoid, then on to the starter motor, and then and back again to the battery via the engine, frame and earth strap. Somewhere in this circuit there is a bad connection, which is limiting the ability of the starter motor to draw sufficient power from the battery to work properly. Have another look at my reply from the last time you raised this topic, where I've listed all the places where this could be. The important point is that the problem must lie somewhere in this circuit, which has to transmit a massive amount of current to operate the starter. It cannot be a problem with bullet connectors, relays, starter button, sidestand switch, ECU or anything else, so don''t bother checking these.

 

You can find out whether the problem is in the supply to the starter motor or the return path to the battery fairly easily, if you have a spare length of very heavy duty cable (e.g. a spare earth strap) - fasten one end of this to the starter motor body - under the head of one of the 2 bolts that attach the starter to the engine is a good place. Then attach the other end to the battery earth terminal, or just hold it firmly against the terminal DON'T CONNECT IT TO THE WRONG TERMINAL OR YOU WILL TORCH YOUR BIKE!! This effectively creates a second earth path from the starter back to the battery. Now try starting your bike. If it starts, you know the problem is with the earth path - usually the earth lead itself.

 

If the extra earth lead makes no difference, then the problem must lie on the supply side - If you know what you are doing, you can check where, by using the same bit of heavy duty cable. to bypass various bits of the supply circuit. E.g. you can put another supply from the battery to the input side of the solenoid. But this can all be a bit tricky, with even more opportunities to torch your bike if you are not careful.

[dlaing]

snip

Good points.

I don't recall for sure, but I think it is possible to forget connecting one of the ground wires to the battery and still have a functioning bike, but with the symptoms the GED's bike is exhibiting.

[GED 01]

cheers phil for taking the time to post such a long and informative reply,the battery is fully charged.the previous battery was a dud and that was a new one ,hence i assumed is must be a fault with the starter,so i fitted a new starter ,still no joy, when i exchanged the battery the bike started up first time.until weds as i described i merely stopped the guzz to open the garage door when i attemted to start it there was a groan from the soli ,then just a click click from the relays then on the 3rd attempt it fired up like it was a new un,then nothing ever since,i agree with you i cant see it being a switch,and im inclined to think that theres somthing wrong with the supply side,but i will know more later today cheers for now

[GED 01]

well ive just spent the last 5hrs with the guzz in 60/70 mph gusts [i hate working on bikes in bad weather]anyhow i went to start her up and the engine amazingly turned over enough for her to fire up,i then removed the tank and bodywork,1st thing i checked was the earth to the starter as phil advised and it made no differance so i then checked the switches all of which work,i then sepparated any and all the block connectors i could find and sprayed them witth leccy cleaner,same applied to the fuse holder and relay assembly,all to no avail still turning over but slowly ,,,so i get my meter and remove the spade end of the solonoid check the voltage and im getting 11.9volts as i push the starter [not sure wht it should be ????]and i9 put some copper grease on the terminal b4 i refit it ,i noticed that it was slightly miss shapen so i straightend it with pliers and tried to put it back on the solonoid terminal o dear i squashed it too much and it was a real strugle to slide it back on but i eventually managed,,, i pressed the starter to make sure i aint buggered owt up and bloody hell its spinning round like i dont no what,,,have i cured the problem ,,,i hope so ,cant believe its somthing soo simple,,i mean the terminal did have a tight fit b4 i squashed it some more.maybe it has to be so tight a fit its almost immpossible to get it back on,,who cares so long as its running again and im keeping my fingers crossed in the meantime

[moscowphil]

Lets hope that's the problem fixed then. Though I must say I'm a bit mystified as to how this could be, as the thin wire to the solenoid with the spade connector just carries the current to operate the solenoid, it doesn't carry the current to work the starter motor. All I can think of is that maybe a poor connection meant the solenoid was sort of half-working, so the switch in the solenoid that carries the main current to the starter was not closing properly. Seems a bit of a long shot though. Did you disturb anything else while you were looking at it? That might be the answer. Anyway, I'm glad the bike's starting OK now, lets hope it continues to do so. If not, get back on line and we can all scratch our heads some more. Cheers

[GED 01]

Lets hope that's the problem fixed then. Though I must say I'm a bit mystified as to how this could be, as the thin wire to the solenoid with the spade connector just carries the current to operate the solenoid, it doesn't carry the current to work the starter motor. All I can think of is that maybe a poor connection meant the solenoid was sort of half-working, so the switch in the solenoid that carries the main current to the starter was not closing properly. Seems a bit of a long shot though. Did you disturb anything else while you were looking at it? That might be the answer. Anyway, I'm glad the bike's starting OK now, lets hope it continues to do so. If not, get back on line and we can all scratch our heads some more. Cheers

WELL SO FAR SO GOOD ,after my last post i went and checked the bike a few more times just to make sure i wasnt dreamig and it started fine,did the same on sunday and even braved the elements anfd took her for a spin,as you sugest maybe the solonoid wasnt getting enough voltage to energise and operate the starter who knows,and to the best of my knowledge i didnt disturb anything as every time i unclipped or cleaned an item i would check if it had made a difference by starting the bike ,,,only when i tightened the spade end did the engine spin like it should,anyhow im back in love with the guzzi and have shelved plans for the purchase of a beemer,and just long for decent weather cheers Ged

[emry]

Sorry I have been away but I sounds like you may have it resolved. Just for clearification the primary side of a relayed circuit is the side that controls the relay (or soleniod) and the secondary is the side that normally will have the high amp's. So in our starter circuit the starter switch, sidestand etc. is on the primary side. The secondary side really just consists of the high amp lead to the soleniod, soleniod to starter, and from the engine to the batt's negative terminal.

 

The purpose of a voltage drop test is to locate a point of unwanted resistance in a live circuit. As electrical current (amps) is pushed (by voltage) through a load (resistance) it will lose voltage. Thus a "voltage drop" To easily check a portion of a circuit, our ground lead for example. Set your multimeter to measure volts DC and attach a lead to the batteries negative terminal and the other to one of the bolts that hold our starter to the engine. The meter should read 0.0v We are simply measuring the difference between the two points. Continue to measure and operate the starter, the meter should stay near 0.0v. Anything over 0.5v would indicate a bad connection. By doing this we just checked the connection of the starter to the engine, the ground wire from the engine to the battery, and the ground wire to battery.

 

Doing a voltage drop is a much more accurate test of a circuits ability to pass current than using the Ohm function to check a circuit staticly.

 

Just as a note you can have a problem on the primary side of the starter soleniod and the soleniod will not operate normally, sometimes it will simulate a low battery, "click click click" or a very low battery "urgnnnn..." When you check the battery the voltage will be fine. I have seen many people put two or more batteries in a bike berfore fustration sets in and they take it to a shop.

 

Cheers

[emry]

In addition, to do a drop test on the posistive side of our primary soleniod starter circuit, you would put a meter lead on the positive battery terminal, and the other on the "hot" small lead that is going into the soleniod. Initially the meter will read 12v. o so. When we press the stater button the reading should drop to 0.0v But in the real world as long as it does not drop more the 1.0v our circuit should be fine. Everytime our current passes through a switch we will have a small drop and these will add up, as long as our switches drop less than 0.5v everything should work alright. If you have a problem then you could start to split the circuit in half to pinpoint the afflicted connector or switch.

[docc]

Good stuff, Emry!

 

I'd like to see those two posts pinned in 'How To."

 

What do you think: 9 times out of 10 (or more) the trouble with a V11 is traced to a connector, relay or tune-up procedure?