plug colors

[Guest BIGGERJIM]

hello everyone

 

i have a question for yall

i just returned from a 50 mile ride and pulled my plugs

they both have a dark and sooty side and the other side of the plug is still white and clean.

did i miss my tune, or is this normal for all guzzi's

i also noticed i am getting horrible gas mileage, maybe in the twenties.

but it does not smell rich

any help would be appreciated....

 

thanks biggerjim

[FuelCooler]

hello everyone

 

i have a question for yall

i just returned from a 50 mile ride and pulled my plugs

they both have a dark and sooty side and the other side of the plug is still white and clean.

did i miss my tune, or is this normal for all guzzi's

i also noticed i am getting horrible gas mileage, maybe in the twenties.

but it does not smell rich

any help would be appreciated....

 

thanks biggerjim

 

Hello biggerjim,

It sounds like you are a bit rich, even if you don't smell it. What kind of modifications (if any) have been made to your bike, and what kind of riding (twisties, interstate, etc.) are you doing? If it is bone stock you should be getting at least 30 mpg unless you are doing a track day. These things should get 40+ mpg cruising at 70-ish on the highway, if they are tuned up.

Steve

[Guest ratchethack]

Jim, V11 plugs will have a characteristic soot "shadow" on the exhaust valve side of the plug tower even when the A/F is ideal. If the insulator on the intake side is white (as you indicate), you're certainly not running rich. It should be a light tan to coffee color. The poor mileage may be due to the kind of riding you're doing. As I recall, you said y'er a Big 'Un?? Unless you know it's been 'futzed with' previously, and without other poor running symptoms, I wouldn't muck with the map on the sole basis of wot you're reading on the plugs.

 

BAA, TJM & YMMV

[Guest BIGGERJIM]

thanks for the replies

i did spank it pretty hard on that ride

i really need to leave it alone and just ride it.

it does have to work pretty hard hauling me around

and after riding the goldwing to work all week,,,

you want something a little smaller to flick around

it's pretty flat and striaght around here,

so when i run up on some curves it,s party time.

i guess i will just leave her alone and let them staintunes sing.

 

thanks fellows

 

big jim

[Guest ratchethack]

Jim, FWIW, here's a link to a good NGK color analysis, circa 1977. Don't be dismayed by the date. Keep in mind that for the most part, the technology of the motor under consideration is from a couple o' decades prior to 1977, so the chart ain't by any means outdated for our purposes.

 

http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

[macguzzi]

If you fit silencers that allow the engine to breath you will find the plugs go a lovely biscuit colour

[VR6Dave]

If you fit silencers that allow the engine to breath you will find the plugs go a lovely biscuit colour

 

 

I experienced the same, I went from stock mufflers with the night/day look to the plugs to a nice tan when I fitted the Mistrals. I've done a few more mods since and will install new plugs to check on how its doing from time to time.

[VR6Dave]

I did about 500 miles this weekend. I had just put on Mistral cans, Mistral crossover, the cross-over-less from headers, PCIII and K&N filter. About half of the riding was steady speed on the highway and the rest was twisty Arkansas backroads. I pulled the plugs when I got back and this is what I saw:

 

One side has a dark tan color and the other is pretty clean. There is a little soot on the end of the threaded shank of the plug and the curved anode has a grayish tint. How much impact will the octane of the fuel have on these colors? I'll reinstall them and check again in another 500 or so miles.

[Guest ratchethack]

I did about 500 miles this weekend. I had just put on Mistral cans, Mistral crossover, the cross-over-less from headers, PCIII and K&N filter. About half of the riding was steady speed on the highway and the rest was twisty Arkansas backroads. I pulled the plugs when I got back and this is what I saw:

 

One side has a dark tan color and the other is pretty clean. There is a little soot on the end of the threaded shank of the plug and the curved anode has a grayish tint. How much impact will the octane of the fuel have on these colors? I'll reinstall them and check again in another 500 or so miles.

Dave, here's a chance to get at least as many different opinions as you get reply posts -- possibly more!

 

Of course, my opinion is worth exactly wot you pay for it, and 'smatter o' fact, there just may be some hereabouts who're just itchin' to explain (with or without rational content) why my read is all wrong -- regardless of wot your photo indicates.

 

IMHO your plugs read just fine. Lacking any symptoms of poor running or rideability, I'd be happy as a clam. According to the NGK photo-analysis at the link in post #5 above, I reckon you're about as close to #14 "The Best" as anyone could reasonably hope for.

 

Coupla thoughts.

 

You didn't mention what PC III map you're using or how you selected one, but IMHO this is 100% irrelevant as long as you get good running, good fuel economy, smooth, even acceleration, and your plugs read as well as they do. Now o' course, there are those who believe themselves compelled to tell you that unless your map was custom developed for your specific configuration of intake and exhaust on a dyno, that wot you're doing here is necessarily and inherently ALL WRONG, regardless of the evidence of how it actually runs! This is just me, but I've never bought into that particular school of folly. IMHO if the evidence on the road and on the plugs is all good, your map is all good, and I don't much care where your map came from.

 

Now I'm NOT SAYING that dyno tuning a custom map is WRONG! IMHO the services of a good dyno tuner on a custom map are often the preferred way to go, and even MANDATORY if you've done extensive engine mods, or can't otherwise get good running, can't get good fuel economy, can't get smooth, even acceleration, and your plugs read poorly! But with the "mild mods" you'e cited, an "off the shelf" or "borrowed" map from someone else's custom dyno tune has often provided excellent results by the evidence on the road and on the plugs of many riders (Yours Truly included) -- often making the prospect of a custom map an effort without much positive return (if any). With the ever-expanding number of maps available, IMHO it's usually at least worth trying a few credibly done maps from bikes as close to your config as possible -- you can hardly beat the price, and the effort level of trying 'em out is about as low as it could be.

 

In any case, I certainly don't find any indication wotsoever on your plugs of either a potentially poor A/F or insufficient octane rating of the fuel. The heat range of the plugs appears to be spot-on. I assume it isn't pinging, or you'd have mentioned it. There's no evidence of it on the plugs, so if it is pinging, it must be both very slight and very occasional. Lacking pinging, fuel quality won't make much difference on the road from wot you're running now (within usually expected variations from pump to pump and brand to brand, of course), and you won't get any different read on the plugs by changing fuel -- unless of course you were to drop down to a low enough octane fuel to start (or increase) pinging. I've never had both Guzzi plugs read exactly the same, (right and left cylinders tend to run at slightly different temps anyway) and a small difference in shade barely enough to detect means nothing significant a-tall, as long as your TBs are balanced properly.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[VR6Dave]

Ratchethack,

 

I didn't notice any pinging, but the exhaust note did sound flat in spots. It made think that I might be a bit rich. I got the map from Todd Eagan, he loaded it onto the PCIII prior to sending it to me. We discussed my mods and he loaded a map accordingly. I will take the time to have it checked out on a dyno, the one in Tulsa is run by a certified Guzzi Tech and there is a new Guzzi Dealer across the street.

 

The other side of the ceramic sleeve is almost clean and white. The right hand cyclinder had the brown speckles, the left hand did not. I ran 89 octane the whole time except when we stopped at a small country station, they only had an 87 pump working. Although my odometer is caput I noted what mile marker/exit I got gas and verified the mileage when I got home with Mapquest. Slabbing it 150 miles on the highway between 80 and 90 I got 34 mpg. We did about 160 miles in the twisties with the RPMs up around 5-6k, I got 31 mpg. On the way home on the highway doing what I estimated to be 70, my speedo cable went caput on this trip, I got close to 40 mpg. I tried to maintain 4k in top gear and if memory serves me that is around 70 mph.

 

I'd like to have the dyno center go over everything with a fine tooth comb and get the A/F optimized as well as smoothing out anything in the map. It may or may not need it but I think the peace of mind is worth it. I am happy with the mods, it likes to rev and pulls pretty good.

 

Dave

[Guest ratchethack]

Ratchethack,

 

I didn't notice any pinging, but the exhaust note did sound flat in spots. It made think that I might be a bit rich.

Dave, a coupla more thoughts, just in case y'er interested.

 

Did you look at the NGK comparo chart I referred to, linked in post #5 above? Again, there's certainly no indication wotsoever of running rich on your plugs -- either in your photo, or in your description. IMHO your plugs could be substituted for photo #14 and used as the new NGK standard for "The Best".

I got the map from Todd Eagan, he loaded it onto the PCIII prior to sending it to me. We discussed my mods and he loaded a map accordingly.

Outstanding. That's exactly wot I did. IMHO Todd nailed it with yours first shot, just as he did with mine -- well enough in my case that I have next to ZERO expectations of a custom map providing detectable improvement in operation, but o' course, that's just me.

I will take the time to have it checked out on a dyno, the one in Tulsa is run by a certified Guzzi Tech and there is a new Guzzi Dealer across the street.

Nothin' wrong with that if you've got high confidence in the ability of the tuner. It'd be interesting to look at before & after dyno chart readings, as well as before & after mileage and plug readings for a comparo. Since I spend next to ZERO riding time at WOT, I'd be looking for charts at "real world" part throttle openings where I actually ride, rather than the typical charts done only at WOT, since these mean next to nothing to me, but again -- that's just me.

The other side of the ceramic sleeve is almost clean and white. The right hand cyclinder had the brown speckles, the left hand did not.

"Clean and white" on one side IS NOT possible if you're running rich overall. This is the same observation Jim had in his opening post. If you did a proper "plug chop" before taking a read on the plugs (no assumptions made here), you may or may not have got the brown speckles (so slight as to be barely detectable in the photo). Unless you did a proper "plug chop", you need to discount wot may have showed up on the plugs as you throttled it back and idled it, or wotever you did for as long as you did after the conditions were where you want to get a plug read. IMHO, without various nasty symptoms that you don't have (or I b'lieve you'd have mentioned them), the "trace" speckles are 100% insignificant, though at least somebody hereabouts is bound to disagree. I'm always ready, willing and able to defer to superior qualified knowledge & experience, of which we've got lots hereabouts far better 'n me. Where's Pete?

 

From wot I've gathered on this, flame front travel and overall flow characteristics of the slightly odd, archaic Guzzi V11 hemi heads, including such inexplicable wonderments as no appreciable squish band from the factory , ensures that you will always tend to have a "shadow" on the exhaust valve side of the plugs. Lighter on the intake side and darker on the exhaust side is the rule rather than the exception. Slightly sooty on the dark side DOES NOT mean you're running rich, if the other side is "clean and white"!

 

FWIW, here's a good page on plug heat ranges, reading plugs, and how to do a PLUG CHOP, which refers to the chart linked above:

 

http://www.dansmc.com/sparkplugs1.htm

 

I'd like to have the dyno center go over everything with a fine tooth comb and get the A/F optimized as well as smoothing out anything in the map. It may or may not need it but I think the peace of mind is worth it.

By all means, peace of mind is often the most important thing and sometimes well worth the cost in terms of money, time & effort. IMHO you can hardly go wrong with a custom map by an experienced dyno tuner who knows V11 Guzzi's!

I am happy with the mods, it likes to rev and pulls pretty good.

That's been my own overall assessment of my own state of tune for 5 years, ever since Todd loaded my map. Keeping a pretty sharp eye out for wot others have achieved ever since, I have no reason to expect that "map perfection" even exists (no 2 maps, even for the same bike by the same tuner, ever being exactly the same). One last thought: There are only ever 2 possibilities with a different map -- you either improve things overall -- or not. If not, go back to the best you had before.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV.

[dlaing]

Hi VR6Dave,

The photo is a little difficult to see, but as usual, I am with Ratchet, the brown speckles are nothing to be concerned about.

I suspect it is simply a result of less than perfect atomization.

The fact that you are not pinging with 87 octane tends to imply you are not running too lean at larger throttle openings.

Getting 40MPG means you are doing better than I am, and I know I am running too rich.

The 31 and 34MPG could mean you may be running too rich some of the time.

The 40MPG is a good sign

A proper tuning link session could improve things.

You might also consider buying the brass engine temperature sensor holder and packing it with conductive. This helps give a higher temperature reading to the ECU, which in turn leans the bike slightly, especially when warming up.

Doing this could help reduce the risk of seeing only 31MPG.

If you want to experiment, you could try setting the TPS a little lower and seeing if it makes the bike happier.

For giggles, I set mine about 10mV higher and I think I lost about 1 MPG, but it does seem to run more smooothly.

I will try setting it to 10mV lower than recommended and do a comparison.

But don't hold your breath waiting for me to get a round tuit around to it.

Hopefully you can be the guinea pig.

[dabore84]

I just changed my spark plugs (10000km service) and noticed that they were wet around the "bolt" thread. Is this normal?

 

I also have an annoying hiccup between 2000-3000 rpm , but I found some solutions about it with the search. TPS balance, inlet/outlet gaskets, valve settings. Did I need to do something else while I'm at it?

 

Hope to get the Roper plate soon, cause some Ferrari wants to race me ... and a Porsche turbo.

[pete roper]

Hope to get the Roper plate soon, cause some Ferrari wants to race me ... and a Porsche turbo.

 

Plate went out yesterday. Paypal address is the same as my email

 

motomoda optusnet.com.au

 

If you've already done it I've recieved no notification from paypal?

 

Pete

[dabore84]

Plate went out yesterday. Paypal address is the same as my email

 

motomoda optusnet.com.au

 

If you've already done it I've recieved no notification from paypal?

 

Pete

 

 

What about the spark plugs?

 

 

I've send you a pm.